Deciphering the Pagan Stones

reply to post by beansidhe


I checked out map of the stones. It looks like this kingdom operated out of the Tay, Dundee probably being an old trading town. Looks like the Edinburgh are was run by the Brits. The way these stones are laid out they were notifications to anyone landing on the coast and coming from the west and south as notifications. Were the Jutes from Denmark?

reply to post by Logarock


I think the Jutes were Germanic, although Bede may have said they were from Denmark. This is when you really need Disraeli around, he's great for that type of question. Coincidently, Dundee's trade in Indian jute (the fibre) started around the 18th century.

So you think these were boundary markers, to state the land was claimed, and to let you know who owned it? It makes a lot of sense.
I can't help thinking that the icons like the Z-rod and the crescent V are 'motifs' if you like, packed with meaning, and that they represent a family or lineage that had astronomical/architectural knowledge. And I also wonder if they were the precursor to this:

reply to post by beansidhe


In fact, I think the crescent V-rod might indicate a country or people from a country. Look at the second panel on the Dunfallandy stone:



She rides towards it, under the eyes of the beastie/Goddess. That would make sense, if it depicts the land she's travelling to. Whether the stones are read from the top down, or the bottom up is a question, though.

reply to post by muzzleflash


This figure on one of the stones at Meigle must be Nehallenia

beansidhe
reply to post by Logarock

 

I think the Jutes were Germanic, although Bede may have said they were from Denmark. This is when you really need Disraeli around, he's great for that type of question. Coincidently, Dundee's trade in Indian jute (the fibre) started around the 18th century.

I asked that because of your comparison to the cauldron and the fact that the Roman general Tacitus said the northern Germans were hardly disguisable from the Brits in language, custom, kilts ect.

reply to post by Logarock


Stuart McHardy and others have speculated that the Germanic 'clan' could have been the Attacotti (not sure that's the right spelling), although the 'Picts' themselves are thought to have had numerous tribes including the Caledonii, the Venicones, the Cornovii amongst others.
That's why I like McHardy's theory that they were the indigenous people of Scotland after the Ice Age, and that waves of travellers came and integrated over the centuries. In other words, the word 'Pict' was just a slander by the Romans, and it encompassed all our ancestors, and it may have been a misrepresentation of the word for ancestor: 'Pecht'.
It makes sense when we think of the foreign influences they display.

For example, they must have had schooling from the Egyptians at some point, to include the 'T' under the seat in the Dunfallandy stone. That would seem too coincidental, to have an identical symbol that developed independently of any another culture, and yet meant exactly the same thing. Particularly as a 'T' does not automatically suggest land-ownership, as maybe a crescent would naturally suggest the moon.

beansidhe
This on the recent posts page, for the 'Secret Society' forum.

Is that just a coincidence, or could one have come from the other? Or have I been looking at symbols for too long, these last few days?

What stands out to me in that picture is a moon and the tide with the v I am not sure what the meaning could be when included.?

reply to post by jaynkeel


The 2 curls being the waves? That is an absolutely brilliant idea - even today much of our folklore is focused on the sea. In fact, Thorneblood alluded to that at the start of this thread, but thinking about sea monsters etc.
Thanks jaynkeel, that was inspired!

beansidhe
reply to post by Logarock

 

For example, they must have had schooling from the Egyptians at some point, to include the 'T' under the seat in the Dunfallandy stone. That would seem too coincidental, to have an identical symbol that developed independently of any another culture, and yet meant exactly the same thing. Particularly as a 'T' does not automatically suggest land-ownership, as maybe a crescent would naturally suggest the moon.

It not really the "t" per say but taking the configurations into account.




Note in above the sea waves and Egyptian style pyramids. Central America.



Above central american royal art.

reply to post by Logarock


Aah, I see. So it doesn't have to be Egyptian, as this is almost a global depiction?
So instead it suggestive of this earlier(?) motif?

beansidhe
reply to post by Logarock

 

Aah, I see. So it doesn't have to be Egyptian, as this is almost a global depiction?
So instead it suggestive of this earlier(?) motif?

Global influence probably originating in the Sumerian area, spread from there.

Thanks for such a great thread!
I have been watching this for a while as I had a fascination with The Picts for years now. Good to see The Cailleach getting a mention too

I'm trying to play catch up here, so forgive me if I am reiterating things already mentioned. I just thought I would throw some ideas in here that may take you in a direction you hadn't thought of.

If you want to get inside the heads of The Picts, you could try reading "The Ecclesiastical History of the English People" by Bede. He even mentions The Picts occasionally. They were assailed on all sides by The Scotti, Scandanavians, the English (Saxons etc) and you may be interested in looking at these guys too, as they would have had influence on the artwork and culture of The Picts (however subtle).

en.wikipedia.org...

Also...the symbols on the stones got bigger and grander as the Pictish Territory got squeezed. This effect is mirrored here in Northern Ireland (and elsewhere in the world), where I live, in areas where a particular group (protestant or catholic) has become a minority in their own area. Flags, murals etc get bigger, more prolific and basically shout " WE LIVE HERE".

In Knowth and Newgrange, here in Ireland, there are Neolithic stones with very complex calendars carved into them...

www.knowth.com...

Finally...The Cruthin, who are seen as Irish Picts and the subject of a very interesting book "The Cruthin" by Ian Adamson

en.wikipedia.org...

I never post on this site, so you've done well to get me here

PS... the tuning forks are actually Blacksmiths' tongs and the beastie is more than likely a Kelpie or Water horse. You can see in the images it has no fin and a horsey tail

reply to post by AtroxLux


Welcome to posting! I'm so glad you joined us!

Also...the symbols on the stones got bigger and grander as the Pictish Territory got squeezed. This effect is mirrored here in Northern Ireland (and elsewhere in the world), where I live, in areas where a particular group (protestant or catholic) has become a minority in their own area. Flags, murals etc get bigger, more prolific and basically shout " WE LIVE HERE".

Aaah, of course, that makes perfect sense. There was less need for the earlier class one stones to display the information. Kind of like this:

...The Cruthin, who are seen as Irish Picts and the subject of a very interesting book "The Cruthin" by Ian Adamson

Going to go and look that up right away!

PS... the tuning forks are actually Blacksmiths' tongs and the beastie is more than likely a Kelpie or Water horse. You can see in the images it has no fin and a horsey tail

Do you think so? They display all other aspects of blacksmithery, so they could be tongs? I hadn't thought of that. We were wondering if the beastie represented the Goddess Nehallennia, who could easily have led to tales of kelpies - they're one of the ubiquitous Scottish creatures.

Thanks so much for logging in, AtroxLux!! Hope to see you on the boards again

Nice to be here

I could be wrong, but it is more than likely any goddess on a Pictish stone would be The Cailleach, rather than Nehalannia, seeing as she was a Germanic goddess. I can see how the connection with the marine animals can be made, but she's too remote. To my mind, The Cailleach is far more relevant as she is peculiar to that area. Don't forget that to travel in those days was very arduous, so people tended to be more parochial about everything and any outside influence would have been very slow to take hold.
The Picts owe far more to their bronze age ancestry (hence the ginger haired majority) than they do to the Celts, who only really started to influence them later. This can also be seen in their language and from what little we do know of their language, theirs was loosely related to the softer Celtic of Britain (like welsh), but still distinct and then taken over by the harder sounding Gaelic. Their remoteness likely insulated them from a lot of religious and cultural influence (and the Romans) until there was too much pressure at the end from all sides.

Really, what is needed, is some sort of Rosetta stone, or the highly unlikely scenario of a parchment, or book, from the period found in the crypt of an old church.

reply to post by AtroxLux


Hmm, the Cailleach is the mother of the gods/goddesses, so yes, you're probably right. Although I wonder then why a kelpie would be watching over the woman on the Dunfallandy stone? (above) Unless it was the motif for her family?

Wouldn't it be brilliant if they uncovered a Rosetta stone in 2 languages at the dig Ektar mentioned, in Ross-shire? That would be amazing!

With reference to The Pictish language, other than the translations of the ogham stones, this is the only other example that I know of. It was scribbled in the corner of a parchment page in a book from between 700-800ad and although it has enough similarities to Celtic British for it to be translated, it is also too different for it to be purely Celtic British. You could consider it a Pictish dialect and there is a lot of controversy over whether it actually is or not. I actually have this is a book of my own, but I have also found the same text in a book online (link below).

One of the biggest problems with trying to work out the meanings of the Pictish Symbol stones, is that we are trying to do it with our modern minds and that is why it is important to read books like The Tain, Bede and these stanzas. It helps try and get inside the heads of those from a different time as they really didn't think the way we do and placed different values on things than we do now.

THE SUPPOSED PICTISH STANZAS

1.

Ni guorcosam neraheunaur henoid
Mi telun it gurmaur
Mi am franc dam an calaur.

2.

Ni can ili ni guardam ni cusam henoid
Cet iben med nouel
Mi am franc dam an patel.

3.
Na mereit nep leguenid henoid
Is discinn mi coweidid
Dou nam Riceur imguetid.

Translation

l.

I shall not sleep a single hour to-night,
My harp is a very large one.
Give me for my play a taste of the kettle.

2.

I shall not sing a song nor laugh or kiss to-night,
Before drinking the Christmas mead.
Give me for my play a taste of the bowl.

3.

Let there be no sloth or sluggishness to-night,
I am very skilful in recitation.
God, King of Heaven, let my request be obtained.

archive.org...

reply to post by AtroxLux


Oh AtroxLux, thank you so much!
You've brought the Picts to life!

And what a fascinating book you've linked too. I'm going to spend some time reading it properly, but this caught my eye:

It is asserted by this writer, who may be considered as
giving an epitome of the generally received statements on this
subject, that there existed in this island of Britain, before and
at the time of its invasion by Julius Caesar, a class or caste of
persons, who, under the name of Druids, formed a powerful
hierarchy; were the depositary of great and extensive learning,
and the possessors of civil power; acquainted with letters, arts,
and sciences ; conversant in the most sublime speculations of
geometry, in measuring the magnitude of the earth, and even ..

of the world; philosophers of a sublime and penetrating spirit,
adding the study of moral philosophy, to that of physiology ;
skilled in mechanics, and acquainted with rhetoric and other
polite arts. The people of whom this remarkable class of
gifted men were the priests, the judges, and the instructors,
were, by no means, observes the same authority, a nation of
wild barbarians, or " painted savages ; " but a people, " main-
taining regular commercial relations with the most powerful
and most polished nations of the world, who were, when they
first colonized the island of Britain, possessed of considerable
general information brought by them from Asia soon after the
dispersion of mankind at the building of the Tower of Babel,
and had not at the time of Caesar's arrival, greatly degenerated
from their original condition."

Glad to be of help. That was why I broke with tradition and posted for change as I thought it better to share the stuff I already knew. I have quite a few books on the subject and will post up anything interesting that I "refind".
I have done a lot of artwork in the past based on The Picts and a lot of research on them. My ancestors were originally from Inverness and as well as Viking ancestors my father is a ginge, so I feel connected to them, in a way

I found an interesting piece here on a possible theory of the meaning of the V-rod and other symbols. Are they symbolic of names?

senchus.wordpress.com...

The V-rod is interesting in itself, as it is clearly a broken arrow on some stones, yet on others it has become way more stylised. Something in my gut tells me it may be a symbol for the Picts themselves (just a guess), seeing as how it was used so often, sort of like how the Soviets used the hammer and sickle. Or possibly a ruling name like a Pictish version of "House of Windsor".

To further help bring them to life, the pic is of their goddess "An Cailleach Bheara" and it's pretty close to how she is described. Blue, scary looking and a bit like Kali. Creation Goddess and not the sort you wanted to mess with

reply to post by AtroxLux


No, no, I wouldn't mess with the Cailleach!

A few posts above, I wondered the same thing:

So you think these were boundary markers, to state the land was claimed, and to let you know who owned it? It makes a lot of sense. I can't help thinking that the icons like the Z-rod and the crescent V are 'motifs' if you like, packed with meaning, and that they represent a family or lineage that had astronomical/architectural knowledge.

Everything seems to point that way, at the moment - well, for me, anyway. The wonderful Logarock has spotted a Sumerian link, going back thousands of years which may help us. Everyone on this thread is incredibly helpful!

If anything springs to mind, don't hesitate to post it up. Since you seem to be a Pict, you are most welcome!

PS - I love your avatar - did you draw it?

I did actually! It's a painting of Cernunnos taken from the Gundestrup Cauldron (very early Celtic)!

I had seen the Sumerian and Egyptian references and although I am very sceptical about such things, I won't rule anything out until it has been proved to be so. There is evidence the ancient Greeks sailed round the British Isles and tried to map it and there is evidence the Egyptians traded with South America long before Columbus, so anything is possible.

I'm learning a lot from this thread, but due to me coming late I am struggling to remember everything I have already read to get to this point. Forgive me

Thanks to you lot, I now look like some wizard surrounded by books and I keep getting asked what I'm doing

Ps...now that I have looked at the Gundestrup Cauldron again, I can see a lot of similar imagery to that of the Pictish stones, the animals in particular.