President of Israel and the Antichrist

reply to post by Gryphon66

mdewey60: No semantic hoops here. I only say the word means what it means, the meaning which you agree with in the other 12 instances, but not in one, in which it suddenly means something totally different. That's merely special pleading.

Please look at my blog page for all the verses using this word.
readingthebibleingreek.blog.com...
If you look at them, you notice it can mean a lot of things, according to the context.
The basic meaning of the word is to grab.
That doesn't seem too descriptive to the translators so they use different English words to substitute in to convey a certain connotation that fits the application.

Why would Paul be so coy about it?

Because.
He probably is pushing off these theories about the future that were already developing in his own time.
My opinion is that he is shoving the rapture off to some impossibly distant time where it is really irrelevant, to the point of being classified as hypothetical.
His main point is that no one is going to be left behind as a result of either being dead or alive.

Utnapisjtim
The antichrist is basically a Jewish ruler of Israel who rules for seven years and is elected from a vast multitude.

What's the difference with this and the system of presidency in today's Israel?

[1] He is the secular ruler of Israel (practically a humanist Messiah)
[2] He sits for seven years (Rev. speaks of a 7 year tribulation)
[3] He is elected through democracy (comes up from the sea)

So what you guys think? Would Shimon Peres fit the suit of the Antichrist? Doubtfully. There are antipopes, and there are also antichrists, rulers who do "evil in the eyes of God". But what do you think?

Good subject.

Antichrist is someone who is against Christ. Not all unbelievers are antichrist.

The antichrist will probably be of Jewish descent. Who is he? His identity is right now being concealed. We can only guess but he will probably be a politician.

The false prophet will come from within religion. His identity is also being withheld.

Be careful a lot of people have their own opinons - and that is all that is. A guess.... so don't be mislead.

Something very dramatic must first occur on this planet before the antichrist arises. Something mankind can not fix.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

Messiah was cut off in the 69th week, the 70th week must play out before He returns.

The "prince" is cut off, or the principality is ended, which could refer to the Hasmonian dynasty including the Herods, the period of time between the break from the dominion by Seleucids, up to the abolishment of a "Judea" altogether by the Romans after the Jewish wars.
Some people take that prophecy to apply to the crucifixion but there isn't any compelling reason to think so that I can see.

Its simple math. The Church will be removed out of the way so that the Hebrews have the Last 7 of 490 years to repent.

It's not simple because the dispensation theory inserts an arbitrary amount of time to make it work out. (the so-called gap)

When Jesus spoke the parable of the Virgins, He was addressing questions about the End of the Age at His 2nd Advent, not His first. Read all of Mat 24&25 for context.

It was the end of the age.
The end of the age of the temple cult religion under the Jews in Jerusalem.
What other end of an age is there?
You are just inventing one, it seems to me, or rather the inventor of whatever theory that you follow.

I dont care how you cut it, there are still prophecies yet to be fulfilled, and they will happen on Israel's time, not the Church's time. Thats after the Groom snatches the Bride away, for when He returns at the End of the Age, He will be returning from His wedding party.

How I "cut it" is if the Bible teaches it or not.
Where in the New Testament does it say that there are yet unfulfilled Old Testament prophecies?
Where does it talk about an end of the age when Jesus returns?
Where does it talk about the church being the equivalent of a "times of the gentiles"?
So where are you getting this concept of the groom snatching away the bride, from the Wildlings in The Game of Thrones?

reply to post by Utnapisjtim


No because he will be a roman who hides his jewish heritage.

OpinionatedB
reply to post by Utnapisjtim

 

No because he will be a roman who hides his jewish heritage.

And that could potentially take us back to Francis whose father was an Italian.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Where is Jesus? Where is the millenial kingdom, the end of sin for Israel, the ressurection? Where is the antichrist and his living statue in the temple? Last time I checked, wild animals still attack us. These are all unfulfilled prophecies.

Again, if the 70th week is already fulfilled, where is the "end of sin" for Israel. It didt happen, because Jesus was executed in the 69th week, and He will come to resurrect the Hebrew believers at the end of the 70th week. Jesus was the First Fruits and as His body, we share First Fruits status with Him, so the Rapture is the completion of the First Fruit resurrection. Check the order of resurrection in corinthians.

reply to post by Gryphon66


I refute your refutation. The Hebrew and Greek scriptures follow a rhetorical syllable metering. That pattern is unique to the original texts and copied transcriptions of it. The modern translations including KJV are inferior to the metered texts, so YES, it does require special knowledge to accurately interpret the Bible. Its not a gift and responsibility delegated to just anybody. That is why God calls out Pastor and Teachers to fulfill that function and to teach the congregations. It doesnt hurt to read a translation, but ALL of the translations are riddled with inaccuracies and mistranslations. Furthermore, without the Holy Spirit, the bible is foolishness to the so-called wise.

The Rapture is a NT prophecy only, a Mystery, because had the Jews embraced Christ as saviour rather than executing Him, the Church would never have come into existance. That why Jesus only revealed portions of it when He dropped subtle hints about the Church as His Bride.

Jesus was the First Fruits, and as His body, we share that status too. Its a blessing that is unique to the Church, just as the Hebrews had blessings unique to their age. So according to the order of resurrection in Corinthians, Jesus is risen first, then the rest of the First Fruits, then He returns at the 2nd Coming, then the Millenium starts then finally the Eternal State.

The Bible is a collection of both historical accounts and prophetic poetry, so there are portions to be taken literally and other portions to be taken symbolically. Most of it can be observed and sorted through with translations, but sometimes, a language scholar is the only way to interpret the truth...especially when it comes to the meter.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest


Are you reading these texts in the original Hebrew, Aramaic or koine Greek? No? Then your argument falls apart. Utterly.

Yes, we've all heard the special pleading for something magical or mystical about the Bible text that prevents us "normals" from understanding it in the same elevated way that the specially "gifted" enjoy. If that were true, then there is no "free gift" of salvation, you have to be endowed or enthused with some quality that is not available to all. The game, as they say, is rigged.

Fortunately, your claim has little merit in terms of what the Bible actually says. Unfortunately, you're no longer bound by what the Bible actually says, because only you (and those of you in your special Holy Ghost group) have the special powers that are necessary to make sense out of the senseless.

Are you familiar with the phrase "circular logic"?

Jesus didn't talk about the Rapture either. The bit about two being in a field, one taken and the other left is skewed toward this belief. Your use of the word Mystery is merely a repetition of your claim for special pleading ... only those initiated, or bathed in the blood, or dipped in the magic Kool-Aid, or whatever can understand.

Your system is a closed system. The idea that the Bible is simultaneously only available to a certain select few and yet represents the only real truth available is utterly obnoxious. Although, I will admit, sympathizing with the Gnostics and other early Christians for a moment, it does sound like a system designed by an insane, blind, spiteful sub-deity intent on keeping humanity hostage in this world in bondage to tyranny and despair.

Your self-styled revelations mean little to anyone that doesn't share your rather narrow and particular belief structure, in short.

reply to post by Gryphon66


Im not a language scholar, but I study under a few and I do my homework, so Im not anymore gifted than you are in that sense

What about less than 200 years ago, when the majority of population was still illiterate? Where was the so-called equality then? Or during the OT days? How do you think they memorized scripture? They used the rhetorical meter in the Bible. Just because you wont look for it doesnt mean does not it exists. Atleast I dont settle for an inferior translation that is worlds removed from it origin.

The meter is there. You have just as much availability to it as anyone else. Go to school and learn the languages yourself.

And what about Paul? He was an Apostle. Thats a title that neither you or I hold. God chooses teacher based on grace and prepares them for their mission. We each have unique gifts.

Look at this before you continue to pass judgment on me.

www.brainout.net...

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest


You're the one who claimed that it takes special training, understanding or abilities to truly comprehend the Bible's meaning. You made the claims about structures in the original languages of composition, and the inferior quality of any translations into secondary languages that we can understand. You're the one that claimed that only special endowments by Holy Spirits enabled one to correctly interpret the Bible.

I just made the implications of your claims painfully clear.

Now you're tossing in red herrings. Illiteracy, while not as widespread as you contend, does explain how the various priesthoods were able to maintain power over the populace because only they had access to the "magic books." You're merely dislocating your claim for special pleading into a past where it makes slightly more sense.

For the record, the system in any culture dominated by a Church or an Imamhood or a Synagogue is about the most unfair, inequitable system I can think of. I completely concur with Denis Diderot (at least on a metaphorical level.): "Quand le dernier des rois sera pendu avec les boyaux du dernier prêtre célibataire, le genre humain pourra espérer être heureux." ("When the last king is hanged with the entrails of the last priest, mankind may hope to be happy.")

reply to post by ketsuko


“Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.” Daniel 11:37 (KJV)

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

Where is Jesus?

So do you think that Jesus has to be physically sitting on a throne somewhere that you can walk to, and visit?
That may be a nice idea but where does that come from?

Where is the millennial kingdom, the end of sin for Israel, the resurrection?

I would say that the millennial kingdom is what we are in now.
The "end of sin for Israel" is the salvation that we enjoy as Christians where we have inherited the better promises from God through Jesus.

Where is the antichrist and his living statue in the temple? Last time I checked, wild animals still attack us. These are all unfulfilled prophecies.

"Living statue in the temple"? Really?
"Wild animals" is part of the imagery used metaphorically about a restoration from a devastated world in the aftermath of deprivations from predatory empires rolling through, and not meant to be taken literally.

Again, if the 70th week is already fulfilled,

It would have ended centuries ago if your theorist hadn't invented just adding a "pause" in there to stop the clock.

where is the "end of sin" for Israel. It didt happen, because Jesus was executed in the 69th week, and He will come to resurrect the Hebrew believers at the end of the 70th week.

That was a conditional clause saying that there was an opportunity for the people to put away sin, then comes the judgment.

Jesus was the First Fruits and as His body, we share First Fruits status with Him, so the Rapture is the completion of the First Fruit resurrection. Check the order of resurrection in corinthians.

You are using a bunch of logical leaps here.
So are you implying that we need to be raptured in order for other people to be resurrected to a shameful state later?

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

. . . had the Jews embraced Christ as saviour rather than executing Him, the Church would never have come into existence.

How would he have been a "savior" in those circumstances, if they had nothing to be saved from?
I think that we should accept this hypothetical as being too ridiculous to contemplate.
What existed at the time was a temple cult that had no place whatsoever in any sort of scheme for an ongoing future.
Jesus called the temple a "house of prayer" and had no desire for any sacrifices being offered there.

The Rapture is a NT prophecy only, a Mystery, . . .

I think that the "mystery" that Paul was referring to was how exactly we would change as to the nature of our bodies to where they are incorruptible, not that there was a resurrection at all.

reply to post by Gryphon66


You do have to have special qualities. I simply examine the hard work of scholars before me. I dont have the disciplice to sit in years of ancient language classes, and its not my calling. Some people are more intellectually gifted then others.

And yes, you must have the Holy Spirit to truely understand the Bible beyond and academic level. That in itself is taught in the Bible. I assumed you were christian, so I thought you knew that. My apologies if I was wrong.

The is no red herring. During the dark ages, illiteracy was a reality. Only those who could read could teach...it was a special ability at the time.

Gryphon66
reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

 

Are you reading these texts in the original Hebrew, Aramaic or koine Greek? No? Then your argument falls apart. Utterly.

Yes, we've all heard the special pleading for something magical or mystical about the Bible text that prevents us "normals" from understanding it in the same elevated way that the specially "gifted" enjoy. If that were true, then there is no "free gift" of salvation, you have to be endowed or enthused with some quality that is not available to all. The game, as they say, is rigged.

Fortunately, your claim has little merit in terms of what the Bible actually says. Unfortunately, you're no longer bound by what the Bible actually says, because only you (and those of you in your special Holy Ghost group) have the special powers that are necessary to make sense out of the senseless.

Are you familiar with the phrase "circular logic"?

Jesus didn't talk about the Rapture either. The bit about two being in a field, one taken and the other left is skewed toward this belief. Your use of the word Mystery is merely a repetition of your claim for special pleading ... only those initiated, or bathed in the blood, or dipped in the magic Kool-Aid, or whatever can understand.

........................

This is the crux of what is going on with "religious teachers".They bind others with "their Belief System" (BS) and call them ignorant.The fact is NONE understood ONE word Yahoshua said..not even the disciples(and especially Simom Peter).The scriptures state so over and over. The teachers will strain out at a verb and swallow a lexicon of their own BS.

When Yahoshua asked the disciples who do YOU say I am Simon answered "you are the Son of God the christ".He didn't say "blessed are you Simon barjona for the "bible" has revealed this to you.Yahoshua once told some "believing Jews" IF you continue in my word you are truly my disciple and you will KNOW the truth and the truth will make you free." Yahoshua never once said he had "faith" or any belief system.

He told some other Jews "you search the scriptures daily thinking that In them you have life YET you fail to come to me whom they testify of that I would save you.It should be painfully obvious Yahoshua never taught a "religious method/system" or formed a "new" religion called Christianity nor did the apostles yet billions"believe" he/they did because..the bible tells me so....and the guy in front of the church who says he believes the bible. when all he believes is his BS.

That is the spirit of antichrist of the many (approx 2 billion currently) .Yahoshua clearly identified them as such when he said "Many will "come" in my name and say they are christ and they will deceive many".God has given them over to a strong delusion that they would believe a lie...their own BS...it's all right there in the scriptures.Yet billions are to blind to see it.

reply to post by jmdewey60


You clearly dont take the bible as literally as I do.

All I will say in response to you is that, if this is the Millenial Kingdom at present, then God is a joke, and Christians have no credibility. This Millenium of yours has been going on for almost 2,000 years now.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest


Fair enough. Now we're back to your original claims. Your original claim remains a special pleading that the true nature of the Bible is only accessible to a select few that are endowed with special qualities by your god at the same time that it is the only source of all truth.

IF that is true (there's not enough room on the page to make that IF big enough) then the system is inherently unfair, unjust and dishonest. If your god's Truth is not equally available to everyone then, as I said, the game is rigged, it's like a pyramid scheme where you have to buy in before you see how the system really works. The country folk call that "buying a pig in a poke."

I call it dirty pool. I call it the base insanity of religion. But that's me and my opinion; your mileage may vary.

This thread regards whether the President of Israel can be considered as the Antichrist, and several of us have demonstrated, repeatedly, that in the terms of the Bible from which the concept of "antichrist" arises, that there is no clear or certain or undebatable scriptural basis for even the idea that there is an "end times" figure that will be called "The Antichrist."

Belief in that character is a result of the fictional works of the ilk of the Left Behind series and The Late, Great Planet Earth, in other words, money-making schemes that thrive on the culture of the belief-based, in my opinion only.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

You clearly dont take the bible as literally as I do.

All I will say in response to you is that, if this is the Millenial Kingdom at present, then God is a joke, and Christians have no credibility. This Millenium of yours has been going on for almost 2,000 years now.

Apparently I don't because I take "a thousand years" to be symbolic of something that is enduring, and lasts a really long time, and not a literal thousand years.
I don't think that God is "a joke".
I do think that Jesus does reign now as king.
I feel sorry for those who believe that Satan rules the world as a god.
If that is what someone believes, then they are worshiping Satan, whether they realize it or not.
Jesus rules a spiritual kingdom that lives within us.
I think that the universe itself is a dangerous and unforgiving place and it wasn't made that way intentionally but just happened to turn out that way at least for the time being.
The lambs don't lie down with the lions, that is true, and they won't any time soon and that is not a failure of God, but what animals have to do to survive and so do people, we need certain nutrients from killed animals to function properly.
The only escape from this system is to be spiritual beings that have an existence that is not dependent on the natural world.
What this means in practical terms is that we have a surety that no matter what happens to our material selves in this life, if we are spiritually in harmony with God, we will live again.
Maybe in some far distant future, if we persevere, we will experience a universe which has matured from its creation phase where physical existence will not be so painful.

I feel sorry for those who believe that Satan rules the world as a god.
If that is what someone believes, then they are worshiping Satan, whether they realize it or not.

I don't disagree with your premise that adding Satan into the Christian pantheon is a kind of worship, but ... the BIble kinda states clearly that Satan is the god of this world. So, if God wrote the Bible via divine inspiration, and He said that Satan is the God of this World ... does that make God a Satanist, by extension?

/is confusled

reply to post by Gryphon66

. . . Satan is the god of this world . . .

Funny.
I must have missed that somehow.
Could you possibly point that scripture out to me, to correct this terrible error that I must have fallen into?
(anyway, I'm being a bit sarcastic here)
I don't think that it actually says that anywhere.
Go ahead and try to find it if it makes you feel better.