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"No one can take my life from me" - Was Jesus really killed?

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posted on Jan, 18 2014 @ 04:30 AM
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(If I say something that is right, then God has inspired me. If I say something that is wrong, then it is my own mistake.)

cru·ci·fy
To put (a person) to death by nailing or binding to a cross.


Part 1 : ''No man can take my life from me''

1) The Christian account of the crucifixion is that Jews demanded from Pontius Pilate the death sentence for Jesus, following which the Roman executioners carried out the crucifixion - a standard Roman execution procedure at that time. This implies that the Messiah, Jesus was killed at the hands of men - the Roman executioners who nailed him to the cross and more importantly, the Jewish priests who wanted him dead.

2) John 10:18 opposes the idea of Jesus having his life taken by men. Here Jesus makes a fascinating declaration, that he - with God-given authority - was in charge of his own life and that no man could take his life away from him. The exact verse is as follows :

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. - John 10:18

3) The implications of John 10:18 is that Jesus could not have been truly "killed" by men, whether the Roman executioners or the Jewish priests. If it were so, then Jesus' declaration that no man could take his life would be severely contradicted. In light of John 10:18, Jesus would have laid his life down on his own, only to take it back in the tomb after which, he ascended to God, but he did not die of the crucifixion, and nobody killed him.



Part 2 - The Islamic account of the crucifixion compared to the Biblical account.

1) The Koran assertively declares that Jesus was not killed, but that Allah raised Jesus up to himself.

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow for of a surety they killed him not. Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise. - Koran 4:157-158
("They" and "them" refers to the Jews.)

2a) The above verses are often (mis)interpreted as meaning that Jesus was not personally taken up to the cross, and that somebody else was transformed to look like Jesus and mistakenly crucified in place of Jesus. This happens to be the popular interpretation of the Korans statement on the crucifixion. However, what if the above verses are actually fully in line with the sayings of Jesus and the Biblical account of the crucifixion? I will comment on the underlined parts of the verses, (But only Allah best knows the meanings)

2b) "they killed him not, nor crucified him" : Lets be clear first that to "crucify" is to KILL. It doesn't mean to merely nail someone to a cross and leave it open ended. The 2 thieves died of the crucifixion and stayed dead. You could legitimately say that they were "killed / crucified".

Jesus however, is exempt from falling in the same category as the thieves for 2 reasons:
First, his own declaration in John 10:18 holds that no one could take his life from him and that he could lay down life on his own. And according to the Gospels, Jesus indeed laid down his life after he said "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." (Luke 23:46). Second, Jesus had authority to take back his own life. His resurrection in the tomb and ascension are well known. Putting the two together, we see that it echoes the Koranic statements that "they killed him not, nor crucified him...Allah took him up to Himself".

2c. "but so it was made to appear to them" : To the Jews (and everybody else) looking on, it would have appeared as if he "died" as a result of the crucifixion But unbeknownst to them, Jesus had laid his own life, as he said he could and therefore, unlike the 2 thieves, did not die as a natural result of the crucifixion.

2d) "but only conjecture to follow" : The Jews remained convinced that Jesus was dead, and even spread rumors that Jesus "dead body" was stolen from the tomb by his disciples. Matthew 28:11 says that this story "has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day". The Talmud supposedly contains a reference to the crucifixion and Jews continue to believe they executed a false prophet, but Christians know that was resurrected and ascended to God.

2e) "Allah took him up to Himself" : This does not need any further commentary, because its also the Christian view that Jesus ascended to God (John 20:17).



Part 3 : Conclusion
1. Jesus' statement in John 10:18, "no man can take my life" corroborates the Korans statement that he was not killed/crucified.

"No man can take my life" = Jesus could NOT have been killed by men.
"I lay it down on my own" = Jesus did NOT suffer death by crucifixion like the thieves.
"I can take it back" = Jesus took it back in the tomb, or rather God returned his life back to him.

Reading the crucifixion in light of John 10:18, Jesus laid his own life and did not die by the hands of men carrying out the crucifixion. Nailed to the cross, yes. Died of the crucifixion, no. Jesus came back to life and ascended to God.

2. Hence, the Korans few sentences on the crucifixion, "they killed him not" ... "but it was made to appear to them" ... "having only conjecture to follow"..."Allah took him up to Himself"... elegantly summarizes the Bibles long account of Jesus' "death", the Jews storymongering and his ascent. We see that the Koran does not contradict the Bibles account of the crucifixion, but instead condenses it to a few short, crisp and poetic sentences.

Related verses from Bible : John 10:18, Luke 23:46, Matthew 28:11, John 20:17
Related verses from Koran : Koran 4:157-158

3b. Trollish comments, unconstructive remarks will be ignored. Unrelated theology / non-scripture posts is discouraged.

3c. Also posting this : ALL MEMBERS READ - Moving Past Religion 101 and Staying on Topic


edit on 18-1-2014 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

edit on 18-1-2014 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 18 2014 @ 04:38 AM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 


I have always wondered why Jesus was taken down, part of the idea of a crucifixion is to make an example out of the condemned. They tend to leave people up there until they're bones...

That part of the story never sat right with me.



posted on Jan, 18 2014 @ 04:39 AM
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I think that trying to mix the Koran with the Bible is like trying to mix water with oil ...Pick one to believe and then believe it .The two books are in conflict with each other much like the Jews and the Muslims .One is of Jacob and the other is of Esau ....peace



posted on Jan, 18 2014 @ 04:41 AM
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reply to post by iRoyalty
 


I think it had to do with the Sabbath and other days on the Jewish calender .



posted on Jan, 18 2014 @ 04:48 AM
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reply to post by the2ofusr1
 


But the Romans who stuck him up there were not Jewish, also Jesus was an enemy of the state, they would have gone all out to make sure a religious upstart didn't rise again (no pun intended! haha)



posted on Jan, 18 2014 @ 04:58 AM
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reply to post by iRoyalty
 

The bodies had to be taken down by sunset, because the day then beginning would be the sabbath. It would against Jewish law for them to remain out in the open. John ch19 v31
The Romans governed the locals mainly through the Jewish authorities, so they were willing to grant the request rather than offend them gratuitously.

edit on 18-1-2014 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2014 @ 05:01 AM
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reply to post by DISRAELI
 


Fair enough! Learn something new every day


Thank you for clearing that one up for me




posted on Jan, 18 2014 @ 05:17 AM
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That sounds more plausible, because if you think about lets say he actually did die then resurrected, then accent into heaven. Why would anybody after tasting the eternal bliss of paradise would return.He is against materialism, so why come back unless you must. So when Jesus (pbuh) actually does return he is going to mortal because in this physical world you have to die. Everything has to come to an end.



posted on Jan, 18 2014 @ 05:21 AM
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reply to post by DuecesxGeneral
 

The Bible teaches that He was resurrected .The Resurrected body does not die . peace



posted on Jan, 18 2014 @ 05:32 AM
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the2ofusr1...The Bible teaches that He was resurrected .The Resurrected body does not die . peace
I have expanded on the resurrection in relation to John 10:18. He was not killed because he said ''no man can take my life''. He laid his life down and took it back later like he said he could.
edit on 18-1-2014 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2014 @ 05:35 AM
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reply to post by the2ofusr1
 


so what happened at "the moment of death"



posted on Jan, 18 2014 @ 05:37 AM
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reply to post by DuecesxGeneral
 


He died .



posted on Jan, 18 2014 @ 05:40 AM
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reply to post by DuecesxGeneral
 



He wasn't crucified, he was hung on a tree for his blasphemy.


"On (Sabbath eve and) the eve of Passover Jesus the Nazarene was hanged and a herald went forth before him forty days heralding, 'Jesus the Nazarene is going forth to be stoned because he practiced sorcery and instigated and seduced Israel to idolatry. Whoever knows anything in defense may come and state it.' But since they did not find anything in his defense they hanged him on (Sabbath eve and) the eve of Passover. Ulla said: Do you suppose that Jesus the Nazarene was one for whom a defense could be made? He was a mesit (someone who instigated Israel to idolatry), concerning whom the Merciful [God]says: Show him no compassion and do not shield him (Deut. 13:9). With Jesus the Nazarene it was different. For he was close to the government."







edit on 18-1-2014 by stargatetravels because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2014 @ 05:41 AM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 


If you continue reading you will find that He did die and was buried and put under guard .The Jews wanted guards because they said to Pialate that His disciples would steal the body .And Jesus had told them that if they destroyed His temple He would rise it up again ...



posted on Jan, 18 2014 @ 05:46 AM
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the2ofusr1

He died .
No, he said ''Father into your hands I commit my spirit'' and lay down his life, like he said he could in John 10:18. He was not killed by the crucifixion like the thieves.



posted on Jan, 18 2014 @ 05:47 AM
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I wasnt trying to a be a jerk, trying to understand. Who gave the immortal body?
edit on 18-1-2014 by DuecesxGeneral because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2014 @ 05:53 AM
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sk0rpi0n

the2ofusr1

He died .
No, he said ''Father into your hands I commit my spirit'' and lay down his life, like he said he could in John 10:18. He was not killed by the crucifixion like the thieves.

So according to this quote, that means hes been given the choice to give his spirit. IF this is true then that means he can ask god bring me up, God brings him up, then sit him down at a time where he can escape, then even raise him back up. The leaders at that time rejected him so maybe hes going to be sent to people, that believe in him and rely on him for sustenance and protection.



posted on Jan, 18 2014 @ 05:54 AM
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the2ofusr1
I think that trying to mix the Koran with the Bible is like trying to mix water with oil ...Pick one to believe and then believe it .The two books are in conflict with each other much like the Jews and the Muslims . .
The point of this thread is to demonstrate that it isn't really that ''oil and water''. The issue of the crucifixion used to be a major gap...and this interpretation bridges it.



posted on Jan, 18 2014 @ 05:58 AM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 


But you are using the Koran to say something that is not in the Bible ...The Koran says He didn't die but the Bible says He did .peace



posted on Jan, 18 2014 @ 06:02 AM
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DuecesxGeneral

sk0rpi0n

the2ofusr1

He died .
No, he said ''Father into your hands I commit my spirit'' and lay down his life, like he said he could in John 10:18. He was not killed by the crucifixion like the thieves.

So according to this quote, that means hes been given the choice to give his spirit. IF this is true then that means he can ask god bring me up, God brings him up, then sit him down at a time where he can escape, then even raise him back up. The leaders at that time rejected him so maybe hes going to be sent to people, that believe in him and rely on him for sustenance and protection.
Jesus suffered physically. But denied the (Jewish) Pharisees the satisfaction of boastfully saying ''we killed Jesus''. The people to whom he will descend are not yet considered by the mainstream as awaiting Jesus.



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