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"No one can take my life from me" - Was Jesus really killed?

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posted on Jan, 20 2014 @ 09:43 AM
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VoiceInTheWilderness
Son of God means HE IS DIVINE, EQUAL with God the Father and that's the teaching of the Bible which is the reason why they wanted Him DEAD for claiming that God was His own Father (John 5:18) making Himself equal with God.

While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?” They said to Him, “The Son of David.” He said to them, “How then does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying: “The Lord said to my Lord, ‘Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool’”? (Matthew 22:41-44 NKJV)


Here I believe you are misunderstanding a few things. "Lord" means someone with authority above you. We have landlords and lords of the manor etc. Most especially when this language was used originally, and original language and times are very important.

Now, Israel is referred to in the bible as the "Sons of God" yes? And when Jesus calls someone a "Son of Abraham" or "Son of Satan" what is He referring to here? Someone who is a FOLLOWER in truth of these beings. A Son of God does the bidding of God and follows HIS ways, a Son of Abraham does the bidding of Abraham and follows his ways, A son of satan does this bidding of satan and follows his ways.

Jesus, is a Son of God, in that he does the bidding of God and follows ONLY God's ways. Jesus, is a Son of God, and is a better than David... therefore, Jesus has authority over David and is His Lord. Jesus is such that He has authority from God.

This does NOT however make Jesus a God, Lord is a different term, and does not mean God. Jesus made sure that people understood there was a very definite distinction between God and Himself.

What it is that Islam is denying, is that God has human DNA. We do not believe Jesus is the physical seed of God, we believe that God created Jesus.
edit on 20-1-2014 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 20 2014 @ 10:03 AM
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VoiceInTheWilderness....Son of God means HE IS DIVINE, EQUAL with God the Father...
Adam is also called ''son of God'' in the Bible? Does it make him equal and as divine as God? No? So there is no reason why should Jesus be ''divine''.



posted on Jan, 20 2014 @ 01:00 PM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 





Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
First, his own declaration in John 10:18 holds that no one could take his life from him and that he could lay down life on his own.


He meant no one could take his life, unless He lays it down, by allowing men to kill him. That’s the context that you’re overlooking. And even if you don’t get that context, Jesus states elsewhere in the NT, that men will have him killed. So all those other verses, need to taken into account…




Originally posted by Joecroft
You are looking at half a sentence, of that verse, without weighing up the rest of its context and other verses in the New Testament, where Jesus specifically prophesies, that men will kill him!.




Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
I did address the full sentence in my post. Maybe you missed it?


No, I didn’t miss it. But it doesn’t matter, because you’re still basing your opinion, on just one half of that sentence i.e. “No one takes it from me…”

When the next part of the sentence, adds more context to it below…



John 10:18
but I lay it down of my own accord.



“Lay it down” can clearly also mean, allowing men to take it from him, by not defending himself etc…and combined with other verses, that we know throughout the NT where Jesus states men will kill him… the above conclusion makes perfect sense, and it also fits into alignment, with all those other verses…




Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
And according to the Gospels, Jesus indeed laid down his life after he said "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." (Luke 23:46). Second, Jesus had authority to take back his own life. His resurrection in the tomb and ascension are well known. Putting the two together, we see that it echoes the Koranic statements that "they killed him not, nor crucified him...Allah took him up to Himself".


But Jesus laid down his life by allowing men to capture and kill him. Jesus didn’t lay down his life by committing his spirit to God, because he could have done that at any time, without the need for a crucifixion, so your idea just doesn’t make any sense. And the only reason Jesus said the words, was because He knew He was dieing on the cross.




Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
I also broke down the verse as follows :

"No man can take my life" = Jesus could NOT have been killed by men.

"I lay it down on my own" = Jesus did NOT suffer death by crucifixion like the thieves.

"I can take it back" = Jesus took it back in the tomb, or rather God returned his life back to him.


But if Jesus says in one sentence



“No man can take my life… etc…”


and in another He states…



Luke 9:21-22
“The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”


Then this must mean that “No man can take my life” must be meant in another context…and it does, as I wrote in my first reply to you below…



Originally posted by Joecroft
So when Jesus talks about laying down his life, in verse John 10 (and many other verses in the NT), he means, he will allow men to kill him, as no one could kill him, if He didn’t allow it to happen.




Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Jesus only allowed them to arrest him, its not the same as allowing them to kill him.
If he allowed them to "kill him", he would be contradicting himself.


But Jesus doesn’t contradict himself. His capture is covered in Luke 18:32, and his death is covered in Luke 9:21-22…



Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
When he was finally nailed to the cross, he did not die naturally of it, but rather, he lay his life dow on his own.
"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." - Luke 23:46


But Jesus says those words, because he was dying (at the hands of men) on the cross. IMO I would also say that those words Jesus spoke, were a prayer to God, and not an actual action…But even if they were an action by Jesus, then he only did so, because his body was dying…which still equates to men killing him…



Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Matthew 16:21 is a commentary by the author of "Matthew". Those are not Jesus' own words.


But Jesus states the same things in Luke 9:21-22, Matthew 20:17-19 and Luke 18:31–33…?


- JC

edit on 20-1-2014 by Joecroft because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 20 2014 @ 07:21 PM
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reply to post by OpinionatedB
 


When it comes to discussions of this nature we have to backup what we say with scriptural verses and I would like all the readers to keep this in mind because a lot of people have a lot of assumptions that are not supported by the Bible. Outside of the Bible there are many theories and ideas as to who this "Jesus" is but when you come to the Bible and properly exegesis the texts you'll see clearly that the Jesus of the Quran IS NOT the Jesus of the Bible. People can have their ideas, theories and assumptions but I'm here to defend the Biblical teaching on who Christ is.


"Lord" means someone with authority above you. We have landlords and lords of the manor ect. Most especially when this language was used originally, and original language and times are very important.


Right but you forget to mention "Context." It is in the context and careful study of the text by taking in the whole counsel of God into consideration can we come to know what it means for Jesus to be Lord. Otherwise we can easily slip in our presuppositions and twist the text to say whatever we want it to say and the Bible speaks against such practices (2 Peter 1:20, 3:16; 2 Corinthians 2:17, 4:2). Abraham was called "Lord" by Sarah but Abraham isn't Lord in the same sense that Jesus is. There are two passages: Ephesians 4:13 + 2 Peter 3:18 and when you put these two together you'll see that it confirms the teaching of Jesus (Matthew 7:21, 22:41-45). Here's the parallel:

"till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;" (Ephesians 4:13 NKJV)

"but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen." (2 Peter 3:18 NKJV)


Paul says, "knowledge of the Son of God."
Peter says, "knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

Which means Jesus Christ is the Son and this Son is the Lord, not just any Lord but THE LORD OF GLORY: "which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." (1 Corinthians 2:8 NKJV)

"My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality." (James 2:1 NKJV)


This brings us back to the Old Testament proving that Jesus is Divine: "Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, He is the King of glory." — Psalms 24:10 (also see: 1 Peter 2:3 + Psalms 34:8).

Jesus is the Son and Lord not in an earthly sense of having authority like landlords but in a divine sense of having absolute authority (like God) both in heaven and on earth (Matthew 28:18). Further proof that this Lord and Son is Divine is the fact that we are to honour the Son just as we honour the Father (John 5:23) and that no one can come to believe that Jesus is God's eternal Son unless the Father reveals it to him (Luke 10:22 cf Matthew 16:17) and no one can confess and believe in his heart that Jesus is the Lord of Glory except by the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3). In other words, no one can come to see and believe in God's Son UNTIL God the Father opens his or her eyes! People who read this might be able to process the information intellectually but they can not and won't come to Jesus until God grants them repentance and belief (John 6:37,44). That's exactly what happened to Paul the Apostle, the Father revealed his Son to Paul, on his road to Damascus to persecute Christians (Acts 26:18 cf Galatians 2:20).

"But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles..." (Galatians 1:15-16 NKJV)

"For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us—by me, Silvanus, and Timothy..." (2 Corinthians 1:19 NKJV)

"For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted..." (2 Corinthians 11:4 NKJV)


To have another Jesus is to have another spirit and gospel that is not of God and that (according to the Biblical account) is what Islam is promoting: Another Jesus, spirit and gospel.

And last, what you said about Jesus not being the unique Son of God and that He was created is false. You are thinking carnally and are not allowing the scriptures to speak for itself. Yes, God has many sons (created, adopted ect...) but there is ONLY ONE that is his "own" and eternal Son (Romans 8:3,32; John 3:16) that came forth from him [God the Father] (John 16:28): Jesus THE Christ.

Father, Son, Spirit: King David was in the Spirit (Holy Spirit) and said, "The LORD [Father] said to my Lord [Son], Sit at My right hand..."



posted on Jan, 21 2014 @ 05:38 AM
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reply to post by VoiceInTheWilderness
 


You said were saying of Islam that which is not true. I corrected you on the Islamic view of Jesus. Which was my only point of contention.

I have no desire to debate you on the teachings of Paul, especially since his teachings make no difference to me. I take the teachings of Jesus himself above the teachings of a man who never met HIM. I take the teachings of Jesus above one who killed those who followed Jesus. Paul is a weak link in your chain, and I do not take his word above the word of Jesus Himself.

I have already explained to you Lord and Son of God in proper context. No need to reiterate myself. What Islam accepts, are Jesus' own words in context. You can accept anyone elses word you wish. I have no desire to debate you on the topic. Islam believes Jesus and what He said of Himself.

To you be your religion and to me be mine.
edit on 21-1-2014 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 21 2014 @ 08:55 AM
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reply to post by OpinionatedB
 


God has revealed his Son to me both from the scriptures and from experience. I have encountered the Jesus of the Bible but the authority here isn't my experience but the scriptures.


You said were saying of Islam that which is not true. I corrected you on the Islamic view of Jesus. Which was my only point of contention.


Let me help you and the readers: We have to be true to the text that we're dealing with. You don't have to believe in what the text is saying or teaching but you have to deal with the text honestly and affirm what it teaches. Take for example, I don't believe in Muhammad (that he was sent from God) but does the Quran teach that you have to receive Muhammad along with Allah in order to be a Muslim? Yes it does. What if I say that it doesn't? Then I'm not reading the text honestly and carefully and that's exactly what Muslims are doing when they come to the Bible. They not only NOT BELIEVE that Jesus is the Son of God but they deny what Jesus says about Himself and His unique relationship with His Father.

I have carefully studied the Person of Christ and I'm telling you and everyone that is reading that the Jesus of the Bible IS NOT the Jesus of the Quran.


I take the teachings of Jesus himself above the teachings of a man who never met HIM.


But you take the teaching of Muhammad who never met Christ Himself? You see, the problem here isn't Paul or Muhammad but your inability to come to Christ.

“As the bird with a broken wing is 'free' to fly but not able, so the natural man is free to come to God but not able.” — Loraine Boettner

If you take the teachings of Jesus then consider this:

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day..." [65] And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." (John 6:44,65 NKJV)

"All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him." (Luke 10:22 NKJV)

No one (including Muhammad) knows who the Son or the Father is until it's revealed by God above.


“It is a myth that man in his natural state is genuinely seeking God. Men do seek God. But they do not seek him for who he is. They seek him in a pinch as one who might preserve them from death or enhance their worldly enjoyments. Apart from conversion, no one comes to the light of God.

Some do come to the light. But listen to what John 3:20-21 says about them. ‘Everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.’ Yes, there are those who come to the light—namely, those whose deeds are the work of God. ‘Carried out in (or by) God’ means worked by God. Apart from this gracious work of God all men hate the light of God and will not come to him lest their evil be exposed—this is total rebellion. ‘No one seeks for God.... There is no fear of God before their eyes!’” — John Piper



I have no desire to debate you on the teachings of Paul, especially since his teachings make no difference to me....Paul is a weak link in your chain, and I do not take his word above the word of Jesus Himself.


I can still prove my case even if I didn't quote Paul. His teachings make no difference to Muslims because Paul agrees with everyone else in the Bible... except Muhammad. I have demonstrated and showed above that Paul HAD A REVELATION from above and the revelation he received lines up with the Old Testament and Jesus' disciples.



posted on Jan, 21 2014 @ 12:03 PM
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reply to post by VoiceInTheWilderness
 


You should use the bible to explain the bible. When you do this you get a much different idea as to who Jesus is when you accept Jesus' words.

When you deny Jesus' words, such as when He said "My Father is greater than I" then you what Paul and others taught you, and you have to jump through tremendous hoops to get where you are in your beliefs. I believe it to be quite dangerous to ignore the One you claim to believe in.

But I am not here to change your beliefs. All I was doing was attempting to explain why Islam teaches what it does. Have a nice day.
edit on 21-1-2014 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 21 2014 @ 12:36 PM
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reply to post by OpinionatedB
 


Friend, I just want you to know that I'm not coming at you nor am I fighting you (Ephesians 6:12). You are free to reply to what I said but you don't have to (just want you to know that) and I won't be offended if you don't so no pressure on you. While I'm here I'll do the best I can to respond to unbiblical "ideas" and "beliefs" for the benefit of others that are reading. Secondly I'm in no way better than you or anyone else on here and I was just as blinded as the rest until God opened my eyes and if anyone is ever saved it will be by God's grace and mercy alone.


When you deny Jesus' words, such as when He said "My Father is greater than I" then you what Paul and others taught you, and you have to jump through tremendous hoops to get where you are in your beliefs. I believe it to be quite dangerous to ignore the One you claim to believe in.


I believe what Jesus says and yes, the Father is greater than the Son but the Son also says that the Father is ONE with the Son and that the Father is his "own" Father, making the Son equal with the Father and that's why they wanted the Son dead for claiming equality with God the Father. You accept the part where Jesus says that the Father is greater than the Son but reject verses that state the Son and the Father are one and equal. I don't reject any of it... and when I take them all in the Bible explains itself.



posted on Jan, 21 2014 @ 01:01 PM
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reply to post by VoiceInTheWilderness
 



VoiceInTheWilderness
According to the teaching of the Bible it is important that we know who Jesus is because it ties in with the Gospel.


It is important to know who Jesus is in order to know if his teachings are reliable. I didn't argue about that. I argued that the details are not as important as what he stands for.


VoiceInTheWilderness
Christianity is ROOTED in a Person (Luke 2:30; John 8:24-25)


Christianity is Rooted in Scriptures, both about and not about Jesus Christ (Old Testament). Most importantly, find out what his main message was and anything that contradicts that is error of man. The Bible was not written by Jesus Christ, and man makes mistakes, but man was inspired to write the bible in order to testify about Jesus's teachings of God's love and forgiveness. So find the main message from Jesus Christ. It is more important to seek his message instead of picking apart details about his life in the bible (The Sermon on The Mount - His actual Teachings is a good place to start).



VoiceInTheWilderness
An intellectual knowledge of Christ's teachings will not save anyone from the wrath to come because even the demons believe and they tremble (James 2:19).


It's not about an intellectual understanding, but to actually fulfill it. God is a God of Justice. God is righteous, wrath is given to those who do not keep the law (Isaiah 30:18).

Jesus Christ said that this ONE commandment sums up the entire bible and anything the prophets ever said. This is the law:



"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." - Jesus Christ (Matthew 7:12)


Love - Compassion.

Paul repeats this more than once:



Galatians 5:14
For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."




Romans 13:10
Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.




James 2:8
If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right.


People want to find contradictions in the bible, or debate the details of Jesus Christ in order to dismiss the message, when The Way to Eternal Life is what he came to teach, fulfilling The Law is very important, not only in this life (to keep peace with other) but in the next (being judged based on The Law - how loving you were).
edit on 21-1-2014 by arpgme because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-1-2014 by arpgme because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 21 2014 @ 01:16 PM
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reply to post by arpgme
 




I argued that the details are not as important as what he stands for.


This is important. Many get caught up on the details of many things in the Word. The details are not accurate to a T, but the overall message is solid!



posted on Jan, 21 2014 @ 05:08 PM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


Hi friend and thank you for taking the time to respond.


I argued that the details are not as important as what he stands for.


There is truth to what you're saying but I have searched the scriptures and the Spirit opened my eyes to see the seriousness of it all so it's both. The details are just as important as what he stands for: “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24 NKJV)

Thomas had to touch to believe and look at the detail he’s describing. The Muslims are now telling us that there are no prints/marks of the crucifixion:

“The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.” John 20:25

John the Baptist wanted to make sure:

And when John had heard in prison about the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples and said to Him, “Are You the Coming One, or do we look for another?” Jesus answered and said to them, “Go and tell John the things which you hear and see: The blind see and the lame walk; the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear; the dead are raised up and the poor have the gospel preached to them. And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me.” Matthew 11:2-6

This is so important that Jesus asked His disciples (and to set a pattern for believers) and notice how a lot of people don’t get it right:

When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?” So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Matthew 16:13-15

That’s why Christians are told to test the spirits/teachers and notice that the test is not on the “teachings” of Jesus but JESUS Himself, His Person:

”Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.” (1 John 4:1-3 NKJV)

It’s so important that Christians are told not to bring anyone who has “another jesus” into their house for fellowship because to deny the Son is to deny the Father also:

“Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.” (2 John 1:9-11 NKJV)

The Law points to Jesus (Galatians 3:24; Romans 10:4)
The Scriptures point to Jesus (John 5:39-40, 20:31)
The Father points to Jesus (John 6:45, 8:42; Matthew 17:5)
The Spirit points to Jesus (John 16:14-15; 1 Corinthians 12:3)
Jesus points to Himself (John 7:37, 8:24, 21:22; Matthew 4:19, 16:15)

What’s happening on this forum is that people are pointing and looking AWAY from Jesus and they only want to focus on his teachings and that’s the deception that a lot of people are not aware of. A lot of people only come to Jesus for His teachings to better themselves spiritually and here’s a prophecy for such people that will come to pass:

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven…. And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’” (Matthew 7:21-23 NKJV)

One of God’s will is:

“And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:40 NKJV)

Notice that He’s not drawing people to His teachings but to Himself:

“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” (John 12:32 NKJV)

Not that His teachings aren't important. It is very important but His teachings are to be lived out by first abiding in Him (John 15:5) so it's important that we abide in the Biblical Jesus and not a false one.

The essence of eternal life is to know both the Father and his Son and to enjoy them (fellowship). This is why it's important that people get it right otherwise they're having fellowship with idols/false gods and you see a lot of this in the New Age movement.

"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." (John 17:3 NKJV) (see also: 1 John 1:1-4 and 1 Corinthians 1:9)


Christianity is Rooted in Scriptures, both about and not about Jesus Christ…


Again, what you're saying is true but to be more specific: Without CHRIST there is no Christianity and I mentioned Buddhism and Islam to show people what I meant by that. You can take away Buddha and Muhammad and these religions still stand because they’re based on the teachings of its founders and not the founders themselves. But if you take away CHRIST you don’t have Christianity so in this sense Christianity is ROOTED in Christ: His death, burial and resurrection. Jesus walked this earth and was crucified and all that took place in time/history and to deny that is to deny the Christian faith no matter how spiritual or good people think they are at keeping the law and living out the golden rule. If they are not in Christ then they're doing it all in vain.

Reading the scriptures and claiming to believe in it doesn't really prove the person to be a Christian unless that person also BELIEVE IN CHRIST and know who He is because many people read the scriptures but do not believe in Him and His work on the Cross.

Note: I'm running out of space so I'm unable to respond to the rest. However, this is the crux of the matter and I would like to focus on this for now.




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