If MILITARY plane(s) were what flew into WTC, then how did the real plane(s), passengers perish?

GenRadek
reply to post by lambros56

 

Pray tell, where do I not make sense?

I thought I made it clear in my post above.
They`re your words...

t may come as a surprise but, light objects like that are more likely to survive because they can do something called "float". During the impact, light materials get caught up in the updrafts of the fires and survive. This is not the first time. Check other high profile crashes of airliners. Clothes, shoes, magazines, letters, have survived serious catastrophes.

So ignore the engines completely? Still doesn't explain why 2 of the 6 engines were found...
And updrafts don't explain an 8 mile debris field

There was. It was mostly either burned off in the impact explosion or it was absorbed into the ground.

Please show me the fire where the wings of 93 hit, the only scorch marks are in the center of the hole and in the trees around it. Nothing where the wings and what should have been engines hit. And either the plane vaporized, which would get rid of all the fuel or it disintegrated, which would not cause the fuel to burn off but instead pool up which no one saw any of. It doesn't absorb into the ground instantly. And since they say they found 95% of the plane, i don't think it vaporized so what happened to the fuel?

Or it was in the carry on luggage. Anyways, there are MANY instances of personal items surviving such crashes.

So out of ALL the things to survive it just so happened to be the passport of one of the guys that just brought down a tower that left nothing else in its rubble? They could barley find office supplies in the rubble and yet they find the one passport they need?

You forget that the plane is a hollow tube filled with air as well. All that air can blow items out from the inside of the aircraft on impact. Again, look up other aircrashes where this has happened.

So why didn't anything else of interest survive? Only 1 of 19 passports? What about IDs of other passengers? Any of those survive?
That cloud that saved that passport only saved the one thing? And wouldn't those fireballs be from the said air going through fire and feeding it more? Point of impact explosion, huge air bubble gets pushed forward and we get a fireball. But the passport was in front of that.

Some times, it comes down to dumb luck.

Well if you are ok with just dumb luck then not much I can say to that...
I guess it was lucky for that guy, one of the few that gained anything from that day

No it was being stated how can such fragile things survive such catastrophic and violent incidents intact, and that it must mean it was planted. I merely stated that Columbia and Challenger both experienced even more severe stresses and forces, and had some fragile items survive that one would not have expected to survive. Surviving a break up and reentry in the atmosphere is not relevant to items surviving 9/11? Come now.

But those ships were doing something they were designed to do, reenter the atmosphere. So were those items taking on the full force of reentry or did the heat shields on the bottom of the vessels take some of that force and stress off?
I will also add that i don't see why that flag could not have been planted... I don't think of either of those events as a conspiracy but I do know that our head honchos don't ever waste a good disaster.
Show ole glory survived the crash and it gives the mass something to smile about.
It is also different IMO because we are talking crucial case evidence was "found" but not a whole much of anything else.
Nothing found in columbia or challenger was used to convict someone of a crime

I think the people that were on the real flights were rushed off to some underground black ops facility and told that some sort of world wide catastrophic event had taken place and standing orders were to rescue as many souls as possible. They now reside in said underground facility under guard and under study, they have no idea of the attacks that took place and they are operating under the assumption that they are some of the last humans on earth.

lambros56
I thought I made it clear in my post above.
They`re your words...

They were responses I made to your questions, which were quoted. If you cannot figure that out, well..................

Sremmos80

So ignore the engines completely? Still doesn't explain why 2 of the 6 engines were found...
And updrafts don't explain an 8 mile debris field

More than six engines were recovered. Both were recovered for Flight 93, Both were recovered from the Pentagon, one engine was recovered on the street at the WTC. The rest probably remained inside the WTCs. Now they were not intact but heavily damaged.

Now as for Flight 93's debris field. Did you ever bother to even look into what the debris fields consisted of? Light airborne materials: ie, papers, cloth, shreds of aircraft aluminum, insulation, nylons, etc. Things that could be lifted and carried by the wind, after being sucked up into the fireball and mushroom cloud. Don't believe me? Check the sources.

Please show me the fire where the wings of 93 hit, the only scorch marks are in the center of the hole and in the trees around it. Nothing where the wings and what should have been engines hit. And either the plane vaporized, which would get rid of all the fuel or it disintegrated, which would not cause the fuel to burn off but instead pool up which no one saw any of. It doesn't absorb into the ground instantly. And since they say they found 95% of the plane, i don't think it vaporized so what happened to the fuel?

Already been explained. Check where the fuel tanks are in a 757 and specifically where they are located in the wings. Then check what the ground was made of where it impacted. The plane didnt vaporize. The fuel was either burned up in the first fireball, or it got soaked into the dirt. First responders described a heavy smell of jet fuel in the crash site. Again, common sense.

So out of ALL the things to survive it just so happened to be the passport of one of the guys that just brought down a tower that left nothing else in its rubble? They could barley find office supplies in the rubble and yet they find the one passport they need?

And in another well known crash, a plane was hijacked and crashed by suicidal man. The suicide note was found in the wreckage.
en.wikipedia.org...
Your point being?

So why didn't anything else of interest survive? Only 1 of 19 passports? What about IDs of other passengers? Any of those survive?
That cloud that saved that passport only saved the one thing? And wouldn't those fireballs be from the said air going through fire and feeding it more? Point of impact explosion, huge air bubble gets pushed forward and we get a fireball. But the passport was in front of that.

You wish to see a list of things that survived? Well, go and request an FOIA form and petition the NTSB and FBI to release a whole list of items they recovered from the crash site. It is not something new that items can survive catastrophic incidents like this. Again, during Columbia's break up and re-entry, petri dishes filled with worms survived. even a torso survived and helmets. You wish to explain how they can survive break-up and reentry?

Well if you are ok with just dumb luck then not much I can say to that...
I guess it was lucky for that guy, one of the few that gained anything from that day

Well guess what? This world works in mysterious ways. Like why is it I get lucky and win $5 on a scratch and win ticket and the guy behind me wins $500?

But those ships were doing something they were designed to do, reenter the atmosphere. So were those items taking on the full force of reentry or did the heat shields on the bottom of the vessels take some of that force and stress off?
I will also add that i don't see why that flag could not have been planted... I don't think of either of those events as a conspiracy but I do know that our head honchos don't ever waste a good disaster.
Show ole glory survived the crash and it gives the mass something to smile about.
It is also different IMO because we are talking crucial case evidence was "found" but not a whole much of anything else.
Nothing found in columbia or challenger was used to convict someone of a crime

The ships broke up, into fireballs, experiencing severe G-forces, very high temperatures that usually vaporize rock, metal and other items during the descent, when not properly protected, etc. If I were you i would look up other aviation disasters where vital clues were discovered that brought to light what caused the crash. Even in twisted wreckage, they can find out if a wire burning out or severing caused the crash, even though to you and me it all looks the same.

GenRadek

lambros56
I thought I made it clear in my post above.
They`re your words...

They were responses I made to your questions, which were quoted. If you cannot figure that out, well..................

No.....
Your responses were made to Sremmos80 , who was making perfect sense.
I found your responses in that post made no sense whatsoever and a bit embarrassing and naïve.

reply to post by GenRadek


Lol well when they grant those FOIAs I will believe they found all that they found like you said.
Where are the black boxes then? If they found all the engines then they most defiantly should have found all the black boxes...
Would you agree the black boxes are built to out survive the engine?

Ya I have seen the picture of where the wings would have hit and there is no burn marks at all.
The ground was an old mine sure, but the ground was still quite solid. Its not like the plane would go through it like a hot knife through butter.
And at the same time if the plane went so far under ground, how did so much debris get tossed up in the cloud? Again they said they found 95% of the plane under ground, so did the other 5% get thrown the 8 miles? They found a good chunk of aluminum that they released like 5 years later... Where does that piece fit into everything?
The bandanna and the ID just so happened to be some of the things that escpae the impact, mushroom cloud burning and throwing things 8 miles and a impact that left nothing of a plane bigger then a phone book?
Well dumb luck was really running wild that day I guess

I still see the comparison to the reentry's apples to oranges because the weight of what was found in correlation to explaining what happened that day. And how it continued to happen on 3 different sites. If columbia and challanger happened in the same morning and was considered a terrorist attack that sprung us into a war and everyone involved in the investigation got promoted then it would be the same.

Actually most aviation disasters get figured out using the black boxes.... You see they are designed to survive any crash for that exact reason, so they don't have to waste there time going through the twisted wreckage to find that one shorted wire that the FDR recorded...
Did you not see that in you research of other aviation disasters?

And to get back on topic.... How would you explain the maneuvers and the speeds at which they were completed to be carried out by fresh out of flight school terrorist under distress? Or was that all dumb luck as well?

lambros56


No.....
Your responses were made to Sremmos80 , who was making perfect sense.
I found your responses in that post made no sense whatsoever and a bit embarrassing and naïve.

Explain how exactly.

reply to post by Sremmos80


Compare the size of a black box to the parts in a jet engine first. Ok, now think sizes. What is going to be easier to find, something that is the size of shoebox or something that is the size of a dinner table? Black boxes were not recovered at the WTC. Why? Well again, in the chaos of the crash, they didn't make it out the building. Then they got pulverized by the collapses. I mean did you really not think about that possibility? A black box is not a solid chunk of steel. They can get mangled in a crash and in this case, buried by 30+ acres of floors. I mean, seriously, think a bit.


As for Flight 93, yes I am sure a bunch got buried in the impact, like how a meteor slams into the Earth. Same idea. But a plane does not stay intact on impact. Some gets buried, some gets obliterated, and some gets ejected. Again, think. The debris that went into the air was the light stuff. Check the items found. Also, the debris was found 8 miles away DOWNWIND of the impact site. If it got shot down, then we should have found debris earlier BEFORE the impact site, along the final path of the plane. But we didn't. There was NO debris found along the path ANYWHERE. No hicks came forward with chunks of aircraft before the crash site. No conspiracy nutters found parts either. All that was found, was found well past the impact site downwind. I would familiarize myself with this ATS thread that covers this entire topic in whole.
FLT 93 The Second Debris Field
It wasn't 8 miles of airplane chunks everywhere. Thermals from the fireball at impact carried this light debris up into the air, and deposited it downwind eight miles away.

If you would like to compare this to another air disaster, look up Flight 1771. Suicidal man causes crash. Found in wreckage is the suicide note, weapon, and even light debris found eight miles away from the impact site downwind.

Also in regards to black boxes surviving, not always the case. Black Boxes Again, the WTC site was the worst case scenario. Flight 77 and Flight 93's black boxes were recovered. But what exactly would be the point of investigating the black boxes? It is no mystery what caused the plane crashes. It was not an accident.

As to what I was comparing the shuttle incidents to this was simple. I was pointing out how seemingly fragile things can survive extreme catastrophic destruction. Geeze, I thought that was pretty simple to understand and was not expecting someone to not figure that out. But I guess if petri dishes with worms surviving the break-up and re-entry of the shuttle at Mach 23 and from altitudes of 230,000ft at temps of over 2000F is not impressive or indicative of how things just can happen unexpectedly, well......................

In regards to the flight characteristics, they weren't anything hotshot at all. Just basic fly, aim, crash. Nothing I haven't done on flight sim games before. However the hijackers had pilot licenses earned. You do know they don't just give them away like Pez candy.

GenRadek
reply to post by Sremmos80

 

Compare the size of a black box to the parts in a jet engine first. Ok, now think sizes. What is going to be easier to find, something that is the size of shoebox or something that is the size of a dinner table? Black boxes were not recovered at the WTC. Why? Well again, in the chaos of the crash, they didn't make it out the building. Then they got pulverized by the collapses. I mean did you really not think about that possibility? A black box is not a solid chunk of steel. They can get mangled in a crash and in this case, buried by 30+ acres of floors. I mean, seriously, think a bit.


As for Flight 93, yes I am sure a bunch got buried in the impact, like how a meteor slams into the Earth. Same idea. But a plane does not stay intact on impact. Some gets buried, some gets obliterated, and some gets ejected. Again, think. The debris that went into the air was the light stuff. Check the items found. Also, the debris was found 8 miles away DOWNWIND of the impact site. If it got shot down, then we should have found debris earlier BEFORE the impact site, along the final path of the plane. But we didn't. There was NO debris found along the path ANYWHERE. No hicks came forward with chunks of aircraft before the crash site. No conspiracy nutters found parts either. All that was found, was found well past the impact site downwind. I would familiarize myself with this ATS thread that covers this entire topic in whole.
FLT 93 The Second Debris Field
It wasn't 8 miles of airplane chunks everywhere. Thermals from the fireball at impact carried this light debris up into the air, and deposited it downwind eight miles away.

If you would like to compare this to another air disaster, look up Flight 1771. Suicidal man causes crash. Found in wreckage is the suicide note, weapon, and even light debris found eight miles away from the impact site downwind.

Also in regards to black boxes surviving, not always the case. Black Boxes Again, the WTC site was the worst case scenario. Flight 77 and Flight 93's black boxes were recovered. But what exactly would be the point of investigating the black boxes? It is no mystery what caused the plane crashes. It was not an accident.

As to what I was comparing the shuttle incidents to this was simple. I was pointing out how seemingly fragile things can survive extreme catastrophic destruction. Geeze, I thought that was pretty simple to understand and was not expecting someone to not figure that out. But I guess if petri dishes with worms surviving the break-up and re-entry of the shuttle at Mach 23 and from altitudes of 230,000ft at temps of over 2000F is not impressive or indicative of how things just can happen unexpectedly, well......................

In regards to the flight characteristics, they weren't anything hotshot at all. Just basic fly, aim, crash. Nothing I haven't done on flight sim games before. However the hijackers had pilot licenses earned. You do know they don't just give them away like Pez candy.

The thing the size of a shoe box is build like a bank vault, and we only have like 2-3 pictures, one form each site, of said dinner table size chunks of steel. So interesting how those things that would significantly help the investigation don't survive but passports and ID's crucial to the criminal investigation survive almost unscathed.
Oh and the ones they find don't trace back to the planes very well.
Also the ones they find have been altered and only shown to a select few..
That is why i still fail to see why you keep bringing up the shuttles, in no way did I say that it was impossible for those things to survive, and I am also sure much larger things survived the same extreme conditions.
I am talking about things not surviving the damage they should have survived.. How is that the same thing?
Not only are we already far off topic outside of the last part of this but you continue to bring up something unrelated.. It is neither a plane crash, hijacking or terrorist attack.

Did you never ever mess up on those flight sims? Cause these guys had one shot to pull of some extremely implausible maneuvers in planes that not one of them had over 10 hours of experience in. Some looking at the controls for the first time ever...
Dumb luck though I bet

They actually did find the black boxes at Ground Zero, but only said that they were never recovered.

The Black Box Conspiracy

Sremmos80
The thing the size of a shoe box is build like a bank vault,

Not really, as you obviously do not know much about them here are some pictures.
acidcow.com...

So interesting how those things that would significantly help the investigation

What makes you think that? We know what happened.... so how do you think they would "significantly help the investigation"

reply to post by gardener


Gather up a bunch of witness protection people. Book them on. All their hometown friends think theirbdead and will claimed to have known them and that they were gone. Give all said wit sec new wit sec info and a payday.

I dont believe in the nobleman theories or no people theories?, but I wanted to put my idea out there. If they blow the whistle then they have the gov and whatever reason theybwere in wit sec after them

reply to post by hellobruce


Why wouldn't engines and black boxes and other essential plane parts help in an investigation of plane crashes?
Seeing as how those would concretely place the said planes in the places they were said to be in.
Regardless if you are 99% sure what happened you still do a full investigation..

Sremmos80
Why wouldn't engines and black boxes and other essential plane parts help in an investigation of plane crashes?

They help in accidents to find the cause.... we already know why these planes crashed!

Seeing as how those would concretely place the said planes in the places they were said to be in.

Already been done.... but of course truthers refuse to accept reality.

reply to post by hellobruce


In the towers sure you know
The other two sites are not so cut and dry.
We have video evidence of 2 planes crashing, we should have video of the third that hit the pentagon. Why hide the video of something we all know happened?
93's crash site sure as heck doesn't look like a 757 crashed there.
You may think it is cut and dry but that doesn't make it true, sorry.
77 didn't nose dive like 93 but we see the same massive parts of the plane that should survive the crash not there like the wings, tail, 6 ton engines. Pentagon has something like 10-15 pictures of what seems to be airplane parts? It barley damaged the building... what happened to the plane?

No it has not been proved without a shadow of a doubt that all the parts found can be linked back to the planes involved that day.
So that is not a point that "truthers" refuse to believe. The evidence that would set that to rest won't be released

And do you think you should preform a full investigation no matter what? Regardless if your are "sure" of what caused it? You didn't single that quote out in your last post, you might have missed it.

Sremmos80
we should have video of the third that hit the pentagon. Why hide the video of something we all know happened?

What evidence do you have that any video was hidden?

77 didn't nose dive like 93 but we see the same massive parts of the plane that should survive the crash not there like the wings, tail, 6 ton engines.

Why do you think the wings, tail and engines would survive hitting a building at speed?

Pentagon has something like 10-15 pictures of what seems to be airplane parts? It barley damaged the building... what happened to the plane?

You really have not done any research, have you. There are a lot more than 10-15 pictures....
911research.wtc7.net...

Here is a link to 1,202 exhibits admitted into evidence during the trial of U.S. v. Moussaoui,
www.vaed.uscourts.gov...

To claim there were only 10-15 photo's just shows how truthers like telling porkies about 9/11!

How do you explain the 757 engines, the 757 undercarriage, the 757 wheels, the 757 seats, the bodies and body parts with DNA matching the passengers on flight 77, the personal effects from passengers on flight 77 found in the wreckage?

If there was any doubt that it was flight 77 don't you think Moussaoui's lawyer would have objected?

hellobruce

Sremmos80
we should have video of the third that hit the pentagon. Why hide the video of something we all know happened?

What evidence do you have that any video was hidden?

77 didn't nose dive like 93 but we see the same massive parts of the plane that should survive the crash not there like the wings, tail, 6 ton engines.

Why do you think the wings, tail and engines would survive hitting a building at speed?

Pentagon has something like 10-15 pictures of what seems to be airplane parts? It barley damaged the building... what happened to the plane?

You really have not done any research, have you. There are a lot more than 10-15 pictures....
911research.wtc7.net...

Here is a link to 1,202 exhibits admitted into evidence during the trial of U.S. v. Moussaoui,
www.vaed.uscourts.gov...

To claim there were only 10-15 photo's just shows how truthers like telling porkies about 9/11!

How do you explain the 757 engines, the 757 undercarriage, the 757 wheels, the 757 seats, the bodies and body parts with DNA matching the passengers on flight 77, the personal effects from passengers on flight 77 found in the wreckage?

If there was any doubt that it was flight 77 don't you think Moussaoui's lawyer would have objected?

edit on 31-1-2014 by hellobruce because: (no reason given)

What video have you seen of 77 hitting the pentagon.... there is 1 out and its the worst video ever..
Pentagon has plenty of cameras, shouldn't have been that hard to get a shot of the plane.
I was simply saying that there is only 10-15 pictures of what are "plane" parts at the pentagon, not that there is only 10-15 pictures of the scene. Use my words in context and don't take them to the extreme
And in the links you see what looks like an engine, parts of the fuselage, what looks like landing gear and some mangled up plane parts in the yard. Nothing conclusive that a boeing 757 was there.
And everything I see is from the same guys that completely botched the investigation in the first place, half those parts can't be traced back to 77 so who is to say that they came from it?

Why wouldn't the tail and wings survive? By the time the tail has reached the building it has been slowed down massively, there isn't even that much damage to the part of the building where the tail and wings hit. So if they didn't cause massive damage that would have destroyed them then where are they?

I don't think Moussaoui got a fair lawyer... who in there right mind would go up against the federal government? That is an case you can't win. He probably didn't object to much outside of some showmanship to make the case look fair.

Sremmos80
Nothing conclusive that a boeing 757 was there.

Except for the 757 wheels, the 757 undercarriage, the 757 engines, the 757 seats, the passengers from flight 77.... the fuselage parts matching a American Airlines 757.... apart from them, what else do you want?

And everything I see is from the same guys that completely botched the investigation in the first place, half those parts can't be traced back to 77 so who is to say that they came from it?

Still wrong, and what makes you claim the investigation into flight 77 hitting the Pentagon was botched?

Why wouldn't the tail and wings survive? By the time the tail has reached the building it has been slowed down massively,

Why do you think that? Again you have no clue at all what happened, what makes you claim the tail would have been slowed down "massively"?

there isn't even that much damage to the part of the building where the tail and wings hit.

Again, you have not even looked at the pictures, nor do you know what the building was made of!

So if they didn't cause massive damage[ that would have destroyed them then where are they?

So according to your claim the tail and wings of El Al Flight 1862 should have been found intact, as that just hit a apartment building

I don't think Moussaoui got a fair lawyer.

What evidence do you have for that?

reply to post by gardener


Could "They" possibly have ditched them or just crashed them into the ocean, or any other large body of water?