'Polar Vortex' to Blast Frigid Air Over Much of US

Wrabbit2000
reply to post by Kali74

 

Indeed... That is where opinions vary and the concept of settled is a slogan coined by a man who never got much closer to science than his advisers in office.

He did not coin the phrase. This is what science itself is saying and one doesn't even have to look hard to see it. The planet is warming because we are adding greenhouse gasses to the atmosphere.

Imagine...if global warming IS happening for that being the absolute and definitive trend ..and we spend trillions and decades to counter it ...only then to discover by accident, some natural process we could have countered much much earlier ..had assumption and presumption not ruled science for focus and outcome.

Then oops. Imagine instead we all say, nope not happening and go about things the way we always do and we discover that in fact the planet has warmed by 4C at the turn of the next century. At that point the countdown to human extinction has approached 1 and the governments of the world are at war of over land for refuge or have all banded together and decided who goes where, who lives, who dies. We get NO SAY if we refuse to have a conversation about it. And I mean the whole planet. We can keep ending the conversation at it's all a plot to take your taxes, or we can say what if science is right... what do we do? We start by telling the governments of the world that we're going to figure it out and will not be told or forced into any of their solutions, unless their solutions put Liberty first.

It's those little things that keep me from accepting either side of what we've watched become a global mud pit of conflicting science and/or experts. Either side, to include AGW, have very solid and persuasive points. The problem...is those aren't the sole points to come across that way.

It seems to me that your mind is made up.

reply to post by ketsuko

They have told us that the solution is to institute a so-called carbon exchange or carbon tax.

But if, as you say, there is no real solution, then what are they taxing us for?

Who is they? Who told you this is a solution? I've heard it's an idea - that might help - but never once heard it might be an actual solution. So far, I haven't heard of any solutions - just discussion about a problem that we may be facing - and then more thinking and discussions about how we might make the problem less

Are you being taxed - actively - for climate change right now? You make it sound as if you are...

You also make it sound as if you believe that the fact that there's no definite agreed upon solution proves there's no problem?

Am I wrong?

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


Because that is all taxes do: make governments richer.

Will a carbon tax make a factory stop producing "CO2" (whether directly into the air, or indirectly by the consumption of energy to make their product)?

The answer is no. They'll just pay the tax and continue making their product that consumers will buy.

Does a carbon tax keep an individual from using transportation such as cars, buses, trains and planes (sometimes ships)?

The answer is no. People and goods need to be moved from point A to point B. "A" might be home, and "B' might be work.

So exactly what does it do? It gives governments more money. It's not going to reduce anyone's "carbon footprint" or carbon emissions at all.

Beezer simply asked if that is a "solution" to a problem that is suppose to be there, because that is all taxes do: give governments money.

I'm pretty sure that history shows us that giving governments more money does not exactly solve anything.

It simply makes bigger government.

And more taxes won't stop people like me from using our cars. Sorry, but I'm not about to walk or ride a bike 15 miles to work, and then the same distance back again to get home, especially in brutal hot weather during the summer, and freezing weather during the winter (rain, sleet, snow, etc).

I'll still drive my car, still use the fuel, and simply do without something else so I can get back and forth.

Taxes won't change that. New transportation that uses green energy might change that, if it's readily available, does not cost a friggin arm and a leg to get, and the infrastructure is there to support it.

And please: no one tell me that is what the "tax" money will be used for. The government coming up with those things.

We've seen what governments like to do with their money: they line THEIR pockets with it, and spend it on the military (or pet programs).

Of course humans ARE contributing to the increase in global temperatures. That much goes without saying. I mean we DO release greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere. The question is "to what extent?" and equally importantly, "what is the solution?"

Without a viable solution, the knowledge is meaningless. You guys reckon a good start is ending our usage of fossil fuels? Maybe Tesla tech?

I believe that would probably do the trick. But here's the rub. You're unlikely to find a singleperson here at ATS that doesn't feel that way. SOOO, debating it here is rather pointless.

The true problem here are the energy brokers of the world. Good luck cracking that shell.




PS,
Out of curiosity, anyone know how much money per month the NSA pays for electricity at that new surveillance center? The amount is sure to be OBSCENE.

Nah, I'm not paying a tax because I use MAYBE 500 a month worth of energy. Its a freakin drop in the bucket to the people in Gov. They just want more of my money.

reply to post by eriktheawful

Taxes won't change that. New transportation that uses green energy might change that, if it's readily available, does not cost a friggin arm and a leg to get, and the infrastructure is there to support it.

And please: no one tell me that is what the "tax" money will be used for. The government coming up with those things.

We've seen what governments like to do with their money: they line THEIR pockets with it, and spend it on the military (or pet programs).

You are right in my opinion. That's why the solutions need to come from us. But we can't come up with solutions if we can't talk about the problem. We can't talk about the problem if every time someone mentions global warming or climate change, half the dialogue just says "Al Gore, tax scheme LOL!".

reply to post by eriktheawful

Beezer simply asked if that is a "solution" to a problem that is suppose to be there, because that is all taxes do: give governments money.

And yet - he asked the question of me...based on what?

:-)

I'm mostly wondering what we have to do to get people to see the problem in the first place

Maybe you and Beezzer should be having this chat - since it seems to be a shared concern

reply to post by Kali74


Then change your message.

Seriously. It's that simple.

Not getting through to everyone? Can't convince everyone? Not surprising with things like "Climate Gate" or "Doom Cryers" who's doom hasn't shown up (not the authentic scientist, but people, bloggers, etc, declaring that NYC would be under a meter of water by 2005! or some such thing).

Here is another reason it won't work. The message that most people get is:

"Climate change is all your (humans) fault. You need to stop driving your cars, stop using the bus, stop using planes. You need to stop buying things made in factories. Stop supporting companies that pollute our world and our atmosphere! I know I'm using a product right now made of Plastic (fossil fuels), fiberglass, and electronic components made by the same factories to spread this message, but still, if we don't change our ways, all the ice will melt and civilization will pretty much end."

Instead, change the message that your everyday person can relate to. Joe in NYC on 38th street, could really care less about those things. Marge out in the burbs could also pretty much care less about it. Mike who lives way out in the country (like me) really depends on his transportation to get back and forth for food, or products or work.

Appeal to them with the things that they appeal to: Find away to stop paying so much for that gas or other fossil fuels that cost so much. Demand green energy so that power bills go down. Demand greener transportation so that ticket prices go down. Demand different ways to manufacture products that we want or need, but will not harm the environment NOR will it now cost me an arm and a leg to buy said product.

I can tell you right now. The current message is this: Guilt. You are all guilty! This is ALL your fault. You MUST be PUNISHED with taxes! We DEMAND that you stop living your life and revert to something much harsher!

Seriously. That is how the AGW message is received. People get tired of it, and nothing is really changing. So people are not going to listen. They will ignore you.

Even if you succeed in convincing Joe in NYC, Marge in the burbs and Mike in the country of AGW.....they'll still be doing what they need to do to live, and they are not about to go back to living like it's the early 1800s again.

Promote non-taxable solutions. Send out a message the promotes change in a positive way. Any one would like a greener Earth, and things that don't cost so much. People can get onboard with that.

What people don't want is guilt trips, doom crying, failed predictions or more taxes.

reply to post by Kali74

That's why the solutions need to come from us. But we can't come up with solutions if we can't talk about the problem.

This. It's this...

I can't decide if the internet makes this more possible - or less

:-)

reply to post by eriktheawful

Then change your message.

Change my/our message? From there's a problem we need to talk about and solve to what?

Seriously. It's that simple.

Apparently it's not because of the following...

Not surprising with things like "Climate Gate" or "Doom Cryers" who's doom hasn't shown up (not the authentic scientist, but people, bloggers, etc, declaring that NYC would be under a meter of water by 2005! or some such thing).

Climategate... there was nothing to climategate, but no matter how much anyone tried to clear up the misinformation it became a meme and it stuck, seems to me that issues like this, are your responsibility. You have to read up on it and determine if what I'm saying is true or am I talking out of my ass.

I cannot, nor can anyone else in 'free society', stop people from writing or saying anything they want to. However I've never come across a climate blogger that claims doom by anything earlier than mid century. In my opinion that is another meme generated by people that don't believe global warming is reality. But if it is so, is it also not on you to look at it and wonder if it is true? To go to the science and realize for yourself that the blogger is talking out of their ass?

Here is another reason it won't work. The message that most people get is:

"Climate change is all your (humans) fault. You need to stop driving your cars, stop using the bus, stop using planes. You need to stop buying things made in factories. Stop supporting companies that pollute our world and our atmosphere! I know I'm using a product right now made of Plastic (fossil fuels), fiberglass, and electronic components made by the same factories to spread this message, but still, if we don't change our ways, all the ice will melt and civilization will pretty much end."

That isn't a message coming from us, maybe aside from those that have gone headlong off a cliff, but every group has those, don't they? This again is more of a meme coming from people who don't think global warming is a reality. They aren't listening to a damn thing we say but are somehow hearing that we're casting blame and guilt all over the place? No. What we are saying is that we have a problem and we have to solve it.

I can tell you right now. The current message is this: Guilt. You are all guilty! This is ALL your fault. You MUST be PUNISHED with taxes! We DEMAND that you stop living your life and revert to something much harsher!

That is your perception. I can't fix that for you. Only you can. Take another look with the question in mind of what are 'these people' actually saying.

HI op. With all due respect - the planet isn't warming. And there is no loss of sea ice. The ice cap reached record levels this winter.

reply to post by Kali74


Calling people a bunch of ignorant science deniers when they can produce their own scientists and paper who argue that the changes are not due mainly to human activity also doesn't help.

If you want to talk solutions, taxing people isn't the answer. For one thing, people can't afford more taxes right now. We're not simply talking about people being greedy; we're talking about a lot of people living paycheck to paycheck and being on tax away from true financial disaster.

So, they should face economic ruin just to accept your tax from a bunch of people who have no real answers? They should face possibly living under a bridge in a box, in this weather I might add, when the very people who tell them they must do this fly all over the world in big, shiny private, pollution spewing jets, live in giant mansions, and still apparently have beach front property that should be going under the sea any moment now.

I haven't noticed ANY changes in weather here in Phoenix. I was wearing shorts and a tank top just the other day! will Phoenicians ever feel this change?

reply to post by Kali74

He did not coin the phrase. This is what science itself is saying and one doesn't even have to look hard to see it. The planet is warming because we are adding greenhouse gasses to the atmosphere.

I've taken notice the last several times people have said that. I don't agree with it. Saying it 1,000 more times and having a 100 more TV programs and specials featuring the same message, ad naseum, won't get me 1 step closer to accepting it as more than one interpretation and possible solution to the data being presented.

I respect others views...why (at no one in particular here) is it so hard to return that respect, when educated people come to disagree in good faith?

I love Americans and hate politicians no matter where they come from.
I have grown to that last second part of the centence expresion at last.

Beloved friends,
let me tell you something that you hopefully will not misinderstand or misinterpret. I don t want to be hated by you. Just consider that my following words are an effort of awakening with only reason of love, not hate.

It is to my greatest dissapointment to see in this thread why this nation suffering from cold right now is fading if not civilisation altogether.

You cannot agree on your own interests...
while you consider wheather engineering an interest of your own.

Good luck to us all.

Is this the greatest nation and is it that what its all about?
Consider that you are draging half the world downhill...

Not that we are not already there....

What are YOU doing ???

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I understand what you are saying and what your intention is. My intention is not to call you stupid, nor even someone who is vicious toward me, like sonofthelawofone, stupid but, the people you present as knowledged on the topic don't cut the scientific mustard.

I understood global warming and climate change before I ever was interested in politics, I have never been much of a mainstream news person either. I learned about this issue, untainted so to speak. I still haven't watched an Inconvenient Truth nor heard Al Gore speak on the matter other than little blurbs here and there out of curiousity, I don't understand the arched back approach to the man that Conservatives take... but I also don't care much what the man says. I care what science says.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

I respect others views...why (at no one in particular here) is it so hard to return that respect, when educated people come to disagree in good faith?

Maybe you see disrespect where there is none - or misinterpret humor? For starters :-)

And this is ATS - people show up loaded for bear - it's hard to slip anything else into the mix when people are anticipating the worst. I was accused of having an agenda earlier in this thread...bizarre

It's interesting to me Wrabbitt - this climate change debate is not even a debate. Nobody is trying to sell anyone on anything - they're trying to warn you

But, nobody ever likes Cassandra. That chick is just so annoying. Who wants to hear bad news?

Doesn't matter that she's right if nobody listens

Go through some of the most recent posts - apparently the ice isn't really melting after all

That IS good news...

:-)

reply to post by Kali74


You see?

Even in your long post, you still came out with: We have to make people see that there is a problem.

Yes, there is a problem: you (and others) are trying to make everyone see a problem........but are not offering any solutions, other than "Carbon Tax", "Government Regulations", or "Someone Needs To Come Up With Solutions".

Had a very old saying while I was in the US Navy: Don't just come to me with a problem. Come to me with solutions to a problem.

Even if you and others could convince 99% of the world's entire population that the climate is changing and it is the fault of all humans on the planet (reread that last please, I, like MANY others on these forums, believe in Climate Change. The Earth's climate does in fact change. But because we are skeptical about how much humanity's involvement is (read that that as SKEPTICAL.....note the word I'm using), we are all branded as "deniers", closely followed by the words "ignorant" or even "stupid", and that we do not believe in Climate Change), even if you did convince all those people.............what now?

Everyone is looking at you now, you've got their attention. You've convinced them.

Now what? So what is the fix?

I've seen answers ranging from "We've all got to stop using any kind of fossil fuels at all!" to "We need to make our government and corporations take action and quickly find alternative energy sources."

Okay, I can get on the bandwagon for the 2nd one. Not so much the first one. You'll find 99% of your 99% you've convinced, shake their heads and walk away from that first one. No one wants to return to a pre-coal using world. Maybe because now we'd all get yelled at for all the trees we're cutting down to burn in the winter to keep warm....or maybe because people had it very rough back then.

However, I'm sure a lot of people would agree on that 2nd one......but how? Again, you're going to have to show you have an answer for it. How to MAKE those corporations do your bidding.....and not whatever it is they want to do. You're going to have to show how to MAKE the governments (of all the world.......has to be all governments of any country that uses fossil fuels, else it would be an exercise it futility) figure out new energy sources and cheaply available to people.

Of course then again we're talking about our own government that couldn't even agree on a budget for 5 years.......

I know you think that if everyone would just admit there is a problem, then we could progress forward. But that is not always true. This isn't AA ("Hello, my name is Joe and I'm a Fossil Fuel User."). People recognize all sorts of problems, but that doesn't fix those things all the time.

So I'll ask you: What is the solution? Assume you've convinced me and others that humans are the cause of Climate Change (you don't have to convince us of climate change, we already KNOW that the climate is changing). You've succeeded.

Now......what is the solution you'd like to put on the table for discussion?

In other words: stop being a town crier, and instead put forth ideas and solutions. Remember: even if people don't agree that humans are the cause of climate change, humans can agree that it's most likely a good idea to take care of our planet.

reply to post by eriktheawful


If you actually see the problem - then why don't you come up with a solution instead of foisting that off on someone else?

If you don't see the problem - then Kali and many others are doing what needs to be done - trying to make people aware

Honestly - if you aren't part of the solution - you are a part of the problem

reply to post by Kali74

but, the people you present as knowledged on the topic don't cut the scientific mustard.

That's the whole thing and where it all breaks down, I think. I know you're not direct and personal with folks ..although it is getting to be widespread lately and over more than just the one topic.

Generally speaking though, I have my thoughts and suspicions over what is causing our climate to fall out of balance, as one decent way of wording it. I'm not necessarily married to any one theory though, as no one theory accounts for everything.

One theory gaining strength is Methane. That isn't man generated as much as nature picking a bad time to pass gas, as it were ..and some of man's activities breaking loose deep reserves (possibly).

Another theory points to our Sun and that's no small matter. It's been quiet for solar flares, but the sunshine index or UV index has been one ugly thing this past year. Sunshine seems a bit stronger to my tired old skin...now that could be by gas in the high atmosphere or that could be the sun radiating more in some wavelengths for some reason we may not grasp.

Some, yes, do propose that some or all of the change is man...and the suggestion seems that without man, we'd see the same annual averages today that Earth saw in the 19th century. I don't know near enough to say that, nor do the climatologists that can't forecast 5 days accurately better than odds on a roulette table.

My point, such that I even have "one" in this? Is that open minds will find solutions while closed and decided or "settled ones" will pray they're right because they're limited to one path in many ways, by self selection at this stage.

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


This is an interesting topic and diversion while I watch for new material and new study data to better clarify things.

The fact of the matter is, ATS has these threads once or twice a week, if not more, every week and has since I came here. It's variations ..not the very same thing of course, but the same theme at least once a week, even on a busy news cycle. So nothing really new or even novel is being discussed here....but once on awhile, even us old hands in this topic will pop up with a new nugget of knowledge that makes the re-runs all worth it.