'Polar Vortex' to Blast Frigid Air Over Much of US

reply to post by eriktheawful


Your post made me incredibly sad. Like literally very sad. I am trying my hardest and just getting slapped down, accused of this and that. Told to change my message. To stop demanding your taxes. Solve the problem then come to you... all I am saying, ultimately in all of this, in every post I make on the subject is very short and very simple...

Help.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

There aren't many topics that mean as much to me as this one. In fact - none mean as much as this one

Having said that, I don't come close to putting in the amount of effort and time as certain other individuals here at ATS :-)

Certain individuals deserve some kind of cosmic gold star

Like a lot of topics - here and on the outside - dogged determination and repetition is having an effect. I know there are some that see all this as just another variation on the doom-porn theme, but I also see that beginning to change

It pays to be passionate and repetitive - even to the point of exhaustion

I'm just happy you're paying attention

:-)

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


But I don't have a solution.

See: that's what I was trying to say: Don't bring me a problem. Bring me a solution to the problem.

I'm not pushing it on anyone. Just pointing out that making people aware is not going to fix a darn thing.

Oh wow! Look! I'm aware of AGW! I believe in it now!

So what do I do?

Ah! Use less gas!......um.....I already do that. I mean, duh, at over $5.00 a gallon, did you think I was wasting it? I can barely afford it as it is!

Use city provided transportation!

Oh wait...I don't live anywhere NEAR a city.....hmmmm.....

Start recycling your plastics and metals........

Hmmm. Already do that.

Cut back on your electricity usage!

Uhm....have you see what power bills look like over the past decade or so? Of course we turn things off if we are not using them. I can't afford the electric bill otherwise!

Grow more plants!

Do that already....live in the country, we work the land, plant trees, etc.

Starting to run out of ideas here

Ah! I don't own a cell phone. There ya go: I have never purchased a cell phone, and now I won't. I'm not going to help support any companies that manufacture that product.

Come to think of it: how many of you guys are using cell phones? How many of you have supported corporations that are polluting the planet? Where they have to keep building more and more cell towers (which use electricity........just like recharging that phone does).

There you go! An idea: everyone put down their damn cell phones and stop using them. Don't buy any more of them. Think about how much plastic goes into them. Think about all the toxic items (batteries) that are in them (not to mention the microwave energy you're exposing your head to as it transmits). Think about all that electricity needed to keep cell towers up 24/7, so you can play Candy Crush on your cell phone.....or make a post here on ATS.

All that electricity to produce all those cell phones. All that land that has been cleared to set up a cell towers, and run electricity to them. All that electricity that is being use. How much of it is generated by fossil fueled power plants? All that carbon going into the air, from the electricity to power those towers (and to keep your little phones powered), to the very first step in make the plastic and components for them.

Been going on 2 decades now, and increasing dramatically:



So there you go: I've thought of a solution to at least partially help with humans adding CO2 to our atmosphere.

Get everyone to put that cell phone down, don't use it again, and don't buy another one.

I mean over 2 decades ago, no one NEEDED them, right?

And as a bonus, just think of all the lives that will be saved because people are no longer texting while driving, or not looking anywhere but their smart phones when they step into traffic.

reply to post by eriktheawful

But I don't have a solution.

See: that's what I was trying to say: Don't bring me a problem. Bring me a solution to the problem.

Honestly? Who are you?

This isn't a marketing problem, and your old Navy saying comes off as a little bit arrogant in this particular situation. You're not mentoring a school girl here. The demands you put to Kali are just for show. She (along with many others) has - only and always - been trying to get people to see the problem

People are not going to like the solutions. They aren't even going to accept the very difficult discussions yet to come until they believe. In all likelihood, unless people get on board soon - and in a big way - those decisions will be made for them

If you see the problem - then you understand the problem. You don't have a solution? Well - pitch in and help out regardless

Simple

Wanted to add: This is interesting to me - you (and a few others) seem to think that understanding and accepting the problem is contingent upon having a solution ready to go. Do I have that right? You think that people who are trying to convince people that there is a problem in the first place will have better luck if they also tell them what to do?

People will accept that climate change is a real problem, that it's very serious, and it's caused by humans - if only you tell them to give up their cell phones and grow more plants?

:-)

'cause - that's what I'm hearing

reply to post by beezzer

I didn't realize until just now the word 'other', and that this was a different question from: So just raising taxes and having wealthier politicians is a solution for you?

What are the solutions other than higher taxes and wealthier politicians?

I don't know - and that's the truth

Burning less fossil fuels is a start - that seems obvious. It's not popular - but it's obvious. This is where your least favorite solution comes in I suppose - it would make people a little choosier about how much of those resources they wanted to use

There are a lot of people more knowledgeable and qualified than me working on other ideas right now - have been for years. This isn't a new story

Seems odd to me that people would make anyone trying to explain the situation responsible for the solution. I'm not a scientist Beezzer - I'm an artist :-)

But I'm just as capable as you are of seeing the situation for what it is

As I've said a few times, and as should be apparent by now - we're all in this together. Hopefully we'll work through this together

I know a few people, and know of many more that aren't quite as hopeful as I am

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


I and others don't expect you to come up with the answer to anything, that would be very unfair of us.

However, it is like I said, and Kali agreed about: we can't depend on governments to provide a solution. The only thing that governments seem to want to do is grab more money from people.

as Kali said: it's up to us. And since it is up to us, that means everyone should try to think of possible ideas for solutions.

In your post here, you are listing things that might help, and that is a good start. That is all I and some of us others are asking: okay, so if this is real, do you have ideas on what to do about it?

You said that this is a interesting subject for you. I would think you would be interested in also seeking answers to what may (or may not) help then, if indeed AGW is real, and not simply a cycle that the Earth itself is going through, with or without our help.

So no, I'm not demanding that you are Kali come up with a solution to "fix" everything.

However, people like me and Beezer are interested in your view and opinion of any ideas on that subject mater. As we both stated: we don't think giving governments more money is the answer, and we'd like to know what you guys think are possible answers or solutions to what you feel is a problem caused by humanity.

In other words: yes we can have a civilized discussion on it, that does not require everyone to agree and believe in something.

For example: I can learn, discuss and ask questions about the Jewish religion, but I don't have to convert or become Jewish to do so. I can do the same thing with biology....without having to accept everything I'm told about it.

As a child who grew up in the 70's, I remember midwest winters being this cold. I remember snows being so deep that there were huge snow drifts between houses. I remember winter of 2000 being -20 below sometimes, -28. It snowed constantly, almost every day. Didn't see the ground in my backyard beneath those layers of ice and snow until beginning of May.

I honestly feel like the media hypes up cyclical weather patterns that have always come and go over the decades. I've seen bad winters, and I've seen winters where it barely snows or gets below 28 degrees. I guess I just don't see the big deal here.

reply to post by eriktheawful


That's my favorite kind of post right there eriktheawful

Better than mine :-)

Balanced and thoughtful

Honestly - I don't get too worked up about that many things - but this really is one of those for me

As I mentioned in another post - I see changes, I see people beginning to think

It is up to all of us - each of us has different strengths is all

It's all good I think - even the arguing. Maybe especially the arguing

:-)

ketsuko
reply to post by CranialSponge

 

I remember one time when I was a little girl that we got hit with a major snow storm and frigid temps right after Thanksgiving. It stayed so cold after that that it wasn't until the first or middle of January when we hit the January "warm spell" that we saw temps in the 30s. Not only did that snow not melt off, but we were lucky if our daytime highs even approached 20 degrees that year in central Kansas where I grew up.

I am guessing that was a year where the polar vortex paid us a visit.

I remember it so well because I remember being so habituated to the cold that we were all wearing light jackets when the temps were right at freezing (32 degrees). That's how cold it was for a month or so.

So this sort of thing is hardly unheard of or unprecedented.

Exactly! I remember vicious weathers as a child and teenager and so on. I swear, it seems like every year or two, the media is ramping up some drama about winter weather. They always say this is the worst winter ever!! But that's not true lol.

I was just saying, the winter of 2000 was rough, and I remember the news saying "worst winter EVER" lol And my grandma laughs about it too. She tells me about the winters when she was in her 20's and 30's as being hellish.

Spiramirabilis
reply to post by eriktheawful

 

That's my favorite kind of post right there eriktheawful

Better than mine :-)

Balanced and thoughtful

Honestly - I don't get too worked up about that many things - but this really is one of those for me

As I mentioned in another post - I see changes, I see people beginning to think

It is up to all of us - each of us has different strengths is all

It's all good I think - even the arguing. Maybe especially the arguing

:-)

No worries.

Nibiru is my hot button.

reply to post by eriktheawful


Your post is encouraging. I think one of the things that needs to happen first is dialogue, amongst ourselves... locally then nationally then globally and then we need to tell our governments what to do about it. That is what government is supposed to do execute the will of the people.

Here's what is already happening on the national and global level. The governments of the world are already acting on global warming, we've already been left out of the decision making process to a large degree. They aren't treating it as if it's an unproven theory but they aren't acting in meaningful ways to correct the problem, rather to exploit the problem while the rest of us argue whether it's happening or not. While President Obama promises to "address climate change and affect policy that won't leave our children and grandchildren the burden of our neglect (loose quote)" the only thing he seems to be doing is sticking to carbon trading... Meanwhile he is trying to get KXL through as well as developing a military Arctic strategy. Canada, Russia, China and other Arctic nations are now in tense negotiations over drilling rights in the Arctic.

Just to give an idea of what is going on or what is in the works for the Arctic...
link
link
link
link
link
link

Supposing it is a real problem, is this how we want it dealt with? Carbon trading and more drilling for more oil that supposedly got us into this mess in the 1st place? Not to mention a potential war brewing over the area.

So as I said, the world governments are acting as if it is really happening. Where is our say? Did anyone ask us if we want a military presence in the arctic? In the US, we have one side of government saying global warming is happening we have to put a price on carbon to encourage alternatives (pass the cost on to you and me like they do with everything else) then we have the other side saying it's all nonsense let's stick with business as usual. Then you and I argue about what's fact and what isn't fact while policies get put in place.

I look at it like this. If Obama cares so much about the environment why is the military, that he is commander of, going to the Arctic to secure drilling? And if the GOP is so goddamn sure that global warming is a hoax and they're oh so fiscally responsible... why aren't they raising hell about futile attempts and wasted money to secure frozen wasteland? Why aren't the greenie weenie Democrats reigning Obama in and trying to keep him from destroying pristine lands?

One thing I suppose we could do is get our media to be brave enough to ask those questions and reject simple answers when they do ask them.

Watching the turbulence between deniers of AGW and supporters of AGW is always amusing to me. I find myself wanting to reach a middleground on this issue because I feel caught between them. My problem is I give too much credit to deniers and probably not enough to the science. I guess deep in my being I distrust authority figures and this makes me detest anytime some blowhard uses science facts too much. Sure, I love science and I think it's the best chance we have, but I just can't sell my heart and soul even to science, the one thing most deserving of it. When it's all said and done, I think there're a lot of things beyond our power to control. And there're some things people will not allow to be controlled, even if it would be beneficial to them. For example, if they discover emotions are bad for us and so they start controlling them with medications, there WILL be people who reject the medications and will choose instead to carry the full weight of their emotions. Some people will just plain reject rational action on certain issues for religious or personal reasons. God forbid we live in a country that revokes our right to act individually. You can see this dilemma with people who decline vaccination. The argument used against them is they threaten people who accept it.

Sooner or later our leadership will have to act to address AGW and they'll have to do it without support of a fair chunk of the country - maybe 30% of people. How many people were against the Iraq war and yet we still went to war? I remember some 70% of polled people back in 2007-08 wanted the troops out of Iraq and yet the US administration ordered a surge. When Cheney was told about it, he shrugged and said they do what they have to do. How often does the government do things the majority may not agree with? Now how often does government do things 30% of people disagree with? I'd say often! Dealing with AGW is cake because earning the support of maybe 50% of the population is easy. There might be protesting and lots of arguing and hate targeting the administration, but it'll all blow over eventually, I think. Lots of bad things are forgiven or forgotten.

The government will force AGW legislation alongside the support of the pentagon. They will treat it as a national security issue and it'll be non-negotiable. Climate scientists will be standing by four star generals and people in uniform. it'll all be preceded by millions of grass roots AGW activists. You can see this activism today in our schools and in countless examples of people reducing their carbon footprint. The stage is being set for a US administration to come out and wrestle AGW.

Peace out to both deniers and supporters. I listen to all of you. I try. I don't know exactly who's right. Don't judge me too harshly. I haven't taken sides.

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


You are certainly in the camp of the confused, desperate for help, and searching for answers.

What this does is: point the blame at those who have NO way of changing anything.

What this means is: Stop asking people who cannot even hardly better there own life, have no ambition to take on corporations, who have been beaten into the ground already with guilt since they were born!

Take the fight to areas you are scared to go perhaps: (But I know you will not, because somehow you believe that everyday people affect change against trillionaire conglomerates who actually LOVE the way things are going.)

Make sure not to believe that all of this may stem from an agenda you fail to see entirely,

I would say it is time to see that you and your current paradigm of Greenhouse gases etc. mindthink are being used to further something you are incapable of comprehending, that it is a RELIGION to blame "HUMAN NATURE" for all things, very mindful of "SIN".

I look at the real problems we have going on here, and it is even farther than JORDAN MAXWELL will even cover.

Realize this, those of us who are preparing to actually combat this lunacy now have people claiming that we should hoist this blame upon ourselves, trust me , IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU ME AND ANY OF YOUR FRIENDS.

GEORGETHEGREEK
Seems to me nature while warming up is still able to give nations that have not joined the world in the environmental acts and treaties to reconsider and start respecting just before its too late.

Start listening to the dying planet.

Please.

Um I don't think it's the planet that you have to be worried about.

99% of all species that have ever lived on Earth are extinct.

Gaia will be just fine. We're hurting ourselves (and all our little animal friends :[

I'm with eriktheawful on this one.


In 1979, because of the Carter Oil Crisis, I asked a question.


Question: What would you rather do with a finite resource like oil.

1. Remake the entire world into a garden paradise, so when the oil runs out, everything is better.
2. Or burn up all the oil as fast as you can.

I mean, up ahead the road runs out, and Carter is recommending that we drop to 55 mph. Why is everyone screaming step on the gas!

Everyone thought I was cute, and that was enough for them.





I refused to get a car.
I rode a bike everywhere.
I watched as all the bikes got pushed off the roads.


I refused to commute, and started walking everywhere.
I always moved close to where I worked.
I watched as the jobs got pushed into the worst neighborhoods, and the grocery pushed further and further out of town.



At last it became impossible to survive in America without motorized transportation.
Finally in January of 2001 my sister bought me a car.
My brother told me "Well. You held out longer than anyone I know."


• If I walk 12 miles to visit someone they are shocked to find out that I walked and want to know what is wrong.
• If the members of the new generation find out that I'm a techie who helped build the cellular infrastructure climbing one tower at a time, but I don't have a cell phone they think I'm crazy.
• If I talk about the General Motors Street Car Conspiracy to eradicate trolleys from the cities, people treat me like a pariah.
• If I formulate a theory about why all this is happening; the same kind of TV shows that ridiculed Carter, now ridicule me.

I became a landscaper and tried to spread gardens.
But America paved the whole country over.
So, now, when the oil runs out we won't even be able to farm.
We'll have to break up the parking lots with hammers first.



Let me ask you . . .
What exactly is my crime;
that I'm now to receive accusations of being a climate denier.

Mike Grouchy

As to solutions...


Why is it that back in the 70's when everyone had the money to do this,
and solar panels had the lifespan of glass,
they were they taken off the table,
but NOW that they have a short life span and come with maintenance that requires a monthly fee,
is there all of this green guilt tripping?


We had tons of solutions.

All the major cities use to have electric street cars.

Planned obsolescence used to be unheard of and we only had to burn energy to make something once.

Wireless communications used to be analog,
and the cities were not full of microwave transmitters making everything hotter.


Mike Grouchy

I'm certain that it's too late for pretty words.
The mind control and mood programming is too strong.

Cost externalizing is a socio-economical term describing how a business maximizes its profits by off loading indirect costs and forcing negative effects to a third party.

wikipedia: Cost Externalizing

The very system that created all these problems
are the ones trying to sell you the solutions.


The most disgusting trend I detected over the past
two years is the new "Humans are the problem"










199 million !?!? search results ???

No.
Humans are not the problem.




Only 121 million search results,
and the results are pretty weak at that.
Nobodies heart is in it.


The agenda is set.
The plan is clear.

Self abnegation for the masses, unlimited power for the elite.

Mike Grouchy

You know, when I read Jurassic Park when I was twelve, the Author, a Harvaard grad, said this about the weather:

You cannot predict the weather more than four days out. The reason is, on day two of the prediction, something unprodictable changes. This is the reality of forecasting.

What we have today giving us our data are computer models ran by computer geeks. I think we all have experience using computers to make our point, and we ought to know, that sometimes we sacrifice hard data, just to make our point....

So I see the problem as one of moral culpability. If you know this to be true, and you deny it, you are sacrificing your morals ( mine is to alighn myself with what's true)

And people DEMAND to know the weather next week! As if that's possible.then, were hurt and confused when what we were told does not happen. When we acted on bad info, and scheduled a wedding. This is mind control based on peoples lack of knowledge. The reason it's mind control is because people are acting on bad data. When we do this, we are not protecting ourselves from being taken advantage of by people who understand that your lack of understanding leads you to be afraid, and you are more likely to be taken advantage of in that mindset.

Deny ignorance. Plan for the good weather and the bad, everyday-- but remember, the future is only a promise. We have yet to see these hypothesis bear fruit. That's why all weather predictions more than four days out, are meaningless and irrelevant to WHAT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING NOW.

Um, I just want to say, I've read some bad data about crude oil in this thread, that needs correction.

do we agree, that "crude oil" DOES NOT come from dinosaur bones and fossils?

do we agree, that "crude oil" is a vegetable based sludge found naturally in pools located on parts of the Planet THAT WERE ONCE LUSH GREEN FORESTS AND JUNGLES? So, it's basicly, bio diesel?

So in order for the planet to run out of "crude oil" the planet would have to cut down all it's plant resoarses for this Peak to even happen.

And the truth is, crude is being sold to the highest bidder. China. That's why it's expensive. It's not expensive because theEarth has a finite amount. Because that's not true, based on how crude oil is made and the facts of the pools we have now.

Now petroleum distillation IS ANOTHER MATTER.

Wrabbit2000
Sub-Zero in the mid-south. Always fun.... Plumbers make their wages on events like this, I tell ya.

Speaking of plumbers, it got down to -3 below 0 here in extreme Southwestern NC last night and the hot water AND our car froze up. I was supposed to have foot surgery today but...the cold weather changed that because the car wasn't running right and it was affecting the braking system so we turned around and headed back home. Hoping to reschedule in the next month. It's not been that cold here in at least 25 years that I can recall.