How to prove the existence of the soul ? Part 1

interupt42
If recall correctly about Dr. Duncan MacDougall experiments: The experiments were not in an adequately scientifically controlled environment and not enough cases were performed.

Yeah, the experiment protocols took some legitimate heat as I understand it, but on the other hand it seems he designed a pretty decent test considering the inherent difficulties and magnitude of ambition.

Overall, I believe, MacDougall deserved more respect and his experiment should have been worthy of a refinement of technique for further study.

I personally doubt a "soul" would have mass, but I also think the good doctor deserves some real respect for his attempt.

thruthseek3r
What I am wondering though is what exactly is consciousness? Is it a neurological pehnomenon, is it an emotion ? (how we do feel could related to the soul or another non physical body), is it an idea ? (another possibility here for another non physical body).

Many questions here would need to be clarify before even focusing on consciousness. This is interesting, but as I seem to see that the use of consciousness is very prevalent in the new-age beliefs, I prefer to stay away a bit from it and focusing on the soul at first.

It's a big subject and one, imo, that we're not likely to solve as an intellectual exercise.

Having said that; I don't believe you are thinking too clearly with the above response. You ask "what is consciousness?" and yet fail to see that all of your above questions (and some you haven't thought of or mentioned anyways) apply equally--or even more so--to the "Soul."

You can see that, right?

Please, I don’t want to bring religion in this because we know the emotionality of that… but interestingly enough, it is a fact that this concept of a soul that comes from religious theistic belief actually has no word for it in any of the major religions.

It turns out it's a colloquial term

Are they pursuing a straw man?

In other words there is no word for soul in either of the major western religions!

You won’t find the word in the Bible or Quran!
The word for soul in these documents is a word that has to do with a word that means breath.

That’s pretty funny

Of all the theistic belief systems the closest word for the “soul” may be the Hindu term Atman


As for “science” I don’t think they would be able to identify anything about any kind of soul

The GUT

thruthseek3r
What I am wondering though is what exactly is consciousness? Is it a neurological pehnomenon, is it an emotion ? (how we do feel could related to the soul or another non physical body), is it an idea ? (another possibility here for another non physical body).

Many questions here would need to be clarify before even focusing on consciousness. This is interesting, but as I seem to see that the use of consciousness is very prevalent in the new-age beliefs, I prefer to stay away a bit from it and focusing on the soul at first.

It's a big subject and one, imo, that we're not likely to solve as an intellectual exercise.

Having said that; I don't believe you are thinking too clearly with the above response. You ask "what is consciousness?" and yet fail to see that all of your above questions (and some you haven't thought of or mentioned anyways) apply equally--or even more so--to the "Soul."

You can see that, right?

edit on 10-12-2013 by The GUT because: (no reason given)

The real thing is I saw this word too much in the new-age beliefs so I am staying cautious every time I see this word just to avoid going into some kind of myth. Of course, if you are talking about the fact of being conscious, I think therefore I am, it is indeed very true.

Nevertheless I do not want to get into philosophy as this was not the intention of the thread so I will stick on to the thread.



Thruthseek3r

Willtell
Please, I don’t want to bring religion in this because we know the emotionality of that… but interestingly enough, it is a fact that this concept of a soul that comes from religious theistic belief actually has no word for it in any of the major religions.

It turns out it's a colloquial term

Are they pursuing a straw man?

In other words there is no word for soul in either of the major western religions!

You won’t find the word in the Bible or Quran!
The word for soul in these documents is a word that has to do with a word that means breath.

That’s pretty funny

Of all the theistic belief systems the closest word for the “soul” may be the Hindu term Atman


As for “science” I don’t think they would be able to identify anything about any kind of soul

Hebrews 4:12, "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

1 Thessalonians 5:23, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."


Now, I do not know for the older texts in hebrew, but I do have here 2 interesting quotes.




Thruthseek3r

reply to post by thruthseek3r


Again, I don’t want to drag this thread into any religious dogmatic dispute, really I don’t.

I know how that dead end goes, but I want to reiterate this fact what I mentioned.

Only to inform the “scientist” should do research before looking for something

en.wikipedia.org...

Those words you read in English scripture such as " soul" are interpretations of oriental languages that have distorted the scriptural documents.

In Arabic in the Quran the word for soul is Nafs ( breath)

In the Bible, original Hebrew it is Nafesh( also breath)

I might add:

The word translated there as spirit is likely something like "Ruah" in Hebrew in Arabic it is "Rue" but the word for soul is something like Nafesh which means something entirely different from what we have come to know as “soul”

Now this doesn’t mean there is no thing as a soul, but it means our understanding has been a little off.

Here is another link that tells us that the term “ soul” actually is related to the word “ breath” in many cultures and languages

en.wikipedia.org...

The lesson in all of this, something that I hark on ALL THE TIME, is that conventional wisdom is often wanting

If we first examine the concept of precedent and its relationship with precedence, and this apparently controversial partnership relative to progressive development within a defined physical system, then we may acquire the necessary conceptual foundation upon which to then proceed toward resolving this mystery of consciousness and sentience/sapience. From there, the path is much clearer to resolving the enigma of the human "soul". That said, you will still have to reconcile the infinite reduction dilemma that the traditional definition of "soul" presents, and this may force you to somewhat redefine the term "soul" or perhaps toss it out completely.

I've solved this entire issue, but I feel that allowing other interested minds to take my hints and factor it out for themselves - here, since this is a place for figuring out stuff for yourself - might be more enjoyable and interesting. For now, the hints are:

• precedent and precedence
  
• their relationship to sentience/sapience
  
• resolving the infinite reduction dilemma of the traditional definition of "soul"
  

I'll check back later.

Willtell
reply to post by thruthseek3r

 

Again, I don’t want to drag this thread into any religious dogmatic dispute, really I don’t.

I know how that dead end goes, but I want to reiterate this fact what I mentioned.

Only to inform the “scientist” should do research before looking for something

en.wikipedia.org...

Those words you read in English scripture such as " soul" are interpretations of oriental languages that have distorted the scriptural documents.

In Arabic in the Quran the word for soul is Nafs ( breath)

In the Bible, original Hebrew it is Nafesh( also breath)

edit on 10-12-2013 by Willtell because: (no reason given)

I understand, breath the breath of life, chi or energy and it even could have a link with vampirism if I think a bit far fetched, but in any way, the basis of the thing is that according to Einstein theory, if everything is transformed/changed, then so it is at the moment of death (of the physical body) which then energy gets transformed/liberated into something else. The fact of what is the name is not important, what matters is to find out what more there is inside of us than our organs and this I could call it an energy body which I believe we all do have.

What now has to be done is to prove it in a scientific way so that it becomes a truth in society and not a mere myth.



Thruthseek3r

NorEaster
If we first examine the concept of precedent and its relationship with precedence, and this apparently controversial partnership relative to progressive development within a defined physical system, then we may acquire the necessary conceptual foundation upon which to then proceed toward resolving this mystery of consciousness and sentience/sapience. From there, the path is much clearer to resolving the enigma of the human "soul". That said, you will still have to reconcile the infinite reduction dilemma that the traditional definition of "soul" presents, and this may force you to somewhat redefine the term "soul" or perhaps toss it out completely.

I've solved this entire issue, but I feel that allowing other interested minds to take my hints and factor it out for themselves - here, since this is a place for figuring out stuff for yourself - might be more enjoyable and interesting. For now, the hints are:

• precedent and precedence
  
• their relationship to sentience/sapience
  
• resolving the infinite reduction dilemma of the traditional definition of "soul"
  

I'll check back later.

According to the concepts of precedent being linked with precedence, I found this on the web:

Precedence
The noun precedence pertains to ranking or status in order of importance or urgency.

Examples:

The medics treated them in order of precedence according to their injuries.

The rules that govern the precedence of members of the Royal Family are complex.
Precedent
The noun precedent means an example from the past that provides evidence for an argument. It is most commonly used in legal circles and, more specifically, can be described as a previously decided case that guides the decision of a future case.

Examples:

Having discovered a similar case in the past, the prosecution team used this precedent to support their argument.

There is precedent with last year's Smith versus Jones case.

Source


In resume, precedence refers to an order of importance, and precedent refers to an example from the past that provides evidence for an argument.

Together, I could see that the mentions of the soul in the past could mean a lot and be of high importance in order to solving this whole thing about the soul. The key lies in the past.


Now, on the sentience/sapience part, sentience is defined as the following by The Free Dictionary by Farlex:

sen•tience (s n sh ns, -sh - ns)
n.
1. The quality or state of being sentient; consciousness.
2. Feeling as distinguished from perception or thought.

Source

I see it as something one can feel which could well relate to the soul, an emotional process apart from what is felt by our five sense in the physical system, the body.


Concerning sapience, this time according to Wikitionary.org:

Noun
sapience (usually uncountable, plural sapiences)
1. The property of being sapient, the property of possessing or being able to possess wisdom.

Source


From what I can understand, the concept of sapience would relate to wisdom.
So, the link I couid make with sentience and sapience would be simply it is important to be wise in our feelings we have inside of us, to pay attention to them. The way it relates to the physical system is to pay attention to it too and how it could be linked with the emotional processes and this whole thing would be found in the past in some part of course.

Then, to resolve the infinite reduction dilemma of the traditional definition of "soul", one would have to be aware of what is purely emotional or of a higher order than the mere physical body itself.

These are the conclusion I came to and would have sooner if I could have.



Thruthseek3r