Mass Murder "Investigators:" What's it to you?

reply to post by ShillBill

But when I do it, or try to explain why I or we do it, I am derailing the thread and I have a malicious agenda?

Actually, it is your failure to explain why you do what you do that is derailing the thread. The thread is, in fact, an invitation for you to explain yourself. For some reason, you refuse either to explain yourself or to go away. I believe the technical term for this behavior is "trolling." Goodbye.

reply to post by DJW001


This is the third or fourth time I am telling you that I already answered your question, even directed you to it. In my other posts I also explained why I and others might be interested in some cases.

If you accuse me of trolling in response I would say there is a problem with your eyes, your reading comprehension skills, or perhaps your brain in general.


Also, how did you know he was shot in the gut?

reply to post by DJW001

What is your interest in mass murder? Why do you find it so interesting? What do you feel can be accomplished by viewing photos of mutilated children? Why do you watch videos of grieving parents so closely? What do you hope to learn? How does it affect you personally? What contribution do you hope to make to society?

If all they ever "investigate" is mass murder, then one might ask these questions. But if it is only one among several conspiracies they have, or are looking at, then the question is closer to baiting than a legitimate inquiry. Have you checked each member who falls under your umbrella, to see if this is their only "interest"? C'mon DJ, I've come to expect better than this from you. This line of questioning is trolling, and you know it. All of your questions are written like accusations. Mass shootings are horrendous crimes. It's no mystery why they draw the attention of the public, and the CT alike. It's also no different from an author who has spent years of their life investigating serial killers, and writing a book. I'm not trying to be offensive. I just find your OP disingenuous. You've surprised me with this. I might ask you what interest you have in those who supposedly fall under this umbrella you've fabricated.

Distrust for government is at an all time high. Why would it strike you as so strange that some CT's would take more than a passing interest in something so horrifying? So you, and even ATS staff might not like the line of questioning, or some of the more extreme theories, but considering some of the admissions made by our own government in recent history. None of this should come as any surprise. You may not like it, but if you start silencing everyone who asks the hard, or even ridiculous, questions, the day will come when no questions will be allowed.

I don't get why some people can call it "research" if it's a subject they're interested in but "armchair detectives" or any other number of demeaning terms if they have no interest in the subject. It's needlessly insulting and in case you hadn't noticed everyone on ATS could be painted with the same broad brush.

People's natural curiosity is enough of a reason for anyone to look deeper in to events that interest them. Sandy Hook is not unique in that respect, only the sensitivity towards the victims families (which I agree with). They should be protected. I have neither questions nor any remarks to say about them.

Why do so many people lump everyone with an interest in Sandy Hook in to one big club where everyone believes in some grand conspiracy, or using crisis actors, harassing parents, wanting to see photos of dead children, etc.? Are you saying there's no such thing as legitimate questions?

Nearly everyone who watched the events closely at Sandy Hook on the day of the event was overwhelmed in a sea of conflicting reports. Many of those were never cleared up or addressed in any way. They just declared to be "fog of war" type mistakes, reporters in a hurry to get the story first and therefore irrelevant to events in question. Much of that "wrong" information came from official sources and a good deal of it pertained to the weapons used and found on the site.

After reading the final report I can tell you that what they describe as the final tally and disposition of the weapons is not true. There is a video showing them removing 2 long guns from the trunk of the Honda though the report only lists a Saiga (Izmaish) shotgun as being in the car.

From the report:

Two of the items examined from outside the building of SHES, one from the shotgun in the shooter’s car and a second from 36 Yogananda Street yielded DNA profiles consistent with the DNA profiles of two victims killed in SHES, one in each.

DNA from 1 of the victims was found on the shotgun. Lanza never returned to his car.

Then there is this little clunker:

53
“No positive identification could be made to any of the bullet evidence submissions noted … … in 5.56 mm caliber. The physical condition of the bullet jacket surfaces were severely damaged and corroded. They all lacked individual striated marks of sufficient agreement for the identification process. The test fires also exhibited a lack of individual striated marks on the bullet surface for comparison purposes. This condition can be caused by fouling in the barrel of the rifle and the ammunition itself. The Bushmaster rifle cannot be eliminated as having fired the 5.56 caliber bullet evidence examined,” quoting from the 6/19/13 Forensic Science Laboratory report.

"the Bushmaster rifle cannot be eliminated as having fired the 5.56 caliber bullet fragments examined"
In simple English none of the bullets fired from the AR15 could be positively matched to the weapon found. They can't prove it's the murder weapon. Wow.

Questions remain. Perhaps not for you but that's your right.
I hate gore and I don't want to see any pictures of dead children but I would like a more cogent and consistent story with some manner of proof that the accused actually killed 27 people.

reply to post by Asktheanimals

I don't get why some people can call it "research" if it's a subject they're interested in but "armchair detectives" or any other number of demeaning terms if they have no interest in the subject. It's needlessly insulting and in case you hadn't noticed everyone on ATS could be painted with the same broad brush.

Aren't those classic strawmen tactics?

What I'm worried and wondering about, is when these characters get their mod badges. I know there are a few who are positively drooling for it. They can feel it in their grasp. The OS set.

But...PEOPLE DIED!

# 85

Asktheanimals
I don't get why some people can call it "research" if it's a subject they're interested in but "armchair detectives" or any other number of demeaning terms if they have no interest in the subject. It's needlessly insulting and in case you hadn't noticed everyone on ATS could be painted with the same broad brush.

Obviously you are talking to me.
You think 'armchair detectives' is a demeaning term?
Sometimes it is. Sometimes not.

Some of the armchair detectives on these threads are people who are sitting on their computers demanding ALL the information and who have no clue what they are looking at. Their speculation could be dangerous. ALL information includes photos of dead children and autopsy reports of dead children - things they have no need to see and no right to see. People who refuse to use common sense .. 'sandy hook didn't happen .. there are no victims .. Adam Lanza is fictional' . People who wont' believe anything except that this is one big conspiracy.

Research folks ... People who admit they have limited knowledge of a subject but who want to look at what the report says to see if everything seems to add up. People who take into account the fact that the families of both the victims and the perp, all of whom have seen the 'sensitive information' are satisfied with the outcome of the report. People who hold no bias about the information one way or the other ... who dont' automatically reject the report or who don't automatically accept the report.

Research = common sense approach.

As far as people here all being 'armchair detectives' ... there are a lot of 'armchair detectives' here. But there is a difference between someone engaging in research and someone seeing a conspiracy everywhere and trying to be a detective on the internet in matters they know nothing about.

There are people on here screaming that Sandy Hook didn't happen. Even if they saw the crime scene photos they'd still be screaming 'photoshopped'. These folks give conspiracy theorists a bad rep.

TheWhiteKnight
Aren't those classic strawmen tactics?

Bringing common sense into a discussion isn't 'strawmen tactics'.
I don't think you know what a 'strawman' is. Strawman tactic

What I'm worried and wondering about, is when these characters get their mod badges. I know there are a few who are positively drooling for it. They can feel it in their grasp. The OS set.

WHAT are you talking about? Nevermind ... Its off topic and no one wants to know anyways ...

FlyersFan

NY Daily News - Newtown Shooter Obsessed with Columbine
Also at the link - some photos from the crime and of Lanza.

I didn't have to go beyond the first picture caption to find a blatant lie.

Photo caption reads: All of the 5.56 mm shell casings recovered at Sandy Hook Elementary school were found to have been fired from this Bushmaster semiautomatic rifle, which was found on the floor of Room 10 after the shooting spree. (bolding mine)

No, they were not found to have been fired by that Bushmaster AR15.

From page 37 the PDF of the report:53

“No positive identification could be made to any of the bullet evidence submissions noted … … in 5.56 mm caliber. The physical condition of the bullet jacket surfaces were severely damaged and corroded. They all lacked individual striated marks of sufficient agreement for the identification process. The test fires also exhibited a lack of individual striated marks on the bullet surface for comparison purposes. This condition can be caused by fouling in the barrel of the rifle and the ammunition itself. The Bushmaster rifle cannot be eliminated as having fired the 5.56 caliber bullet evidence examined,” quoting from the 6/19/13 Forensic Science Laboratory report.

No positive identification.
They could NOT positively identify the AR15 found at the scene as the murder weapon from comparison with test fires.
They COULD have positively identified the weapon though extractor marks, why was this not tested or not mentioned?

This is why I trust the MSM about as far as I can spit, with a dry mouth.

OT reply self-censored. Sorry OP -blush-

reply to post by Klassified


Thank you for a thoughtful and polite response, although it still does not address any of the issues raised in the OP. You are correct; there are those who investigate many other things besides mass murders. To them, anything that appears on the news, from baseball scores to box office ratings are suspect and evidence of some deeper conspiracy. Naturally, they are interested in actual crime as well.

In modern Constitutional theory, one of the justifications for the "freedom of the press" is that an electorate needs to be informed in order to make important decisions. Certain classes of persons and events therefore merit special attention. We need to know whether the candidate we may be voting for is trustworthy. We need to know something about the way he deals with stress and whether he is honest. "Digging up dirt" on this class of person is not only traditional, it is vital. We don't want to knowingly vote for crooks. Likewise, we need to know the true causes and meanings of events that can shape our lives as citizens. Assassinations, sabotage, terrorism. All of these can and, too often do, lead to war and further death and destruction.

Obviously, both private individuals and public institutions, whether in the private sector or government, have reasons to control the public's access to information. They sometimes have good reason to do so. Pinning JFK's death on a lone crazed gunman almost certainly avoided an American invasion of Cuba and subsequent nuclear war with the Soviet Union. Usually, however, they have bad reasons. That is why investigating W's "Yellowcake Intelligence" should have been done more thoroughly.

Are you beginning to see my point? Some things demand to be investigated for the public good. Others seem to attract people for other reasons. We are not talking about an ethnic community being destroyed in a village; there is certainly conspiracy at work there and it needs to be exposed, even if the MSM is hesitant to cover it. No, we are talking about one or more deranged individuals walking into a public place in middle America and opening fire on a large group of strangers. Where is the public good in investigating this? Where is the electorate's need to know?

reply to post by Asktheanimals


As a moderator, I would expect you to help keep the discussion on topic. THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT ANY SPECIFIC EVENT.

reply to post by Asktheanimals


spent casings from a semi-automatic firearm , can be matched to the weapon 3 ways :

1 - firing pin indentation

2 - bolt face machining imperfections

3 ejector claw mark

the source you cite clearly states that the evidence you quote referes to spent casings

to spell it out - the fact that the AR-15 fired " some rounds " - the spent cases from which were found in the school - does not PROVE it was the murder weapon

and finally - if it is a massive conspiracy of lies " - why didn't they fabricate the evidence ?

reply to post by ignorant_ape


Please stop with the off topic remarks, already!

reply to post by DJW001


I boils down to trust doesn't it? Do you accept the msm version in everything or just pick and chose what you accept and reject. How do you make those decisions when you know full well there is an agenda and manipulation of the facts; not to mention the secrecy.

Social and cultural structuring and manipulation is more than apparent to me in so many cases. To many disconnects! And they have gotten so shoddy at hiding it. They don't even care anymore because they know dumbass people will believe the official story.

And I see that many have let their ideologies get in the way of their common sense. Or perhaps they see and know the truth but have motives that aren't actually their own. So are you asking me to believe proven lairs? If so...why?

How does it feel to look in the face of tyranny?


www.ushmm.org...

Almost got carried away off topic myself, DJW001.

While I find that my own curiosity gets the better of me from time to time, I like to think that if there is a subject worthy of my research, I am entitled to obtain all the information I need to come up with my own theory or result. That doesn't mean that I feel the need to acquire information beyond my grasp, or even beyond what is out there in the public eye. But it does mean that I should have access to accurate information and true facts for said conclusion. We all know that for every fact there are 100 lies. Its hard to believe the media is out to tell us the truth. So where do I find it? That would mean I carry on a private investigation myself but I wouldn't publicize it or post videos about it. But that is me and I believe I am in the minority. Alot of people feel the touch of fame tickling their face when they find some "evidence" of a conspiracy that no one else has found and try to make a large ordeal of it. Even if it is asinine. Youtube=famous amirite?

BUT:
When my own govt has willingly and forcefully misled the nation with gross inaccuracies and lies time and time again, I begin to wonder when or if any facts will prevail or even if the truth is out there. The truth may be relative to the person studying it. For some it may still be a lie, for others it is acceptable and laid to rest. There are subjects that deeply concern me, and there are some that I completely ignore. But in the end, my personal beliefs force me to ask if it is even worth the trouble? I can only control what is within my 3 feet of personal space. So all these crimes, atrocities, or agendas are going to take place regardless if I know the facts. That is just my belief and it hits me especially hard when I still believe there is an ultimate agenda afoot.

So I find out what I can, try to garner my own assessment and make sure I can prevent an incident from happening to my loved ones and myself. That's all I can hope for and that is why I personally ask questions.

I also like to know if and why our leaders are such venomous scum.

DJW001
reply to post by Asktheanimals

 

As a moderator, I would expect you to help keep the discussion on topic. THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT ANY SPECIFIC EVENT.

I apologize if I was OT, it was not my intent.
I take no offense if you were make a complaint.
Sometimes I may be a little dense though.
I am a member posting as a member - your call DJW001.
My apologies.

ATA

reply to post by DJW001


Sure - I'll give you a very straightforward reason.

Our elected & law enforcement officials have proven time & time again that their words alone can not be trusted. That is what evidence is for.

It's been that way since the founding of this great country.

That's why the laws of the United States of America and the laws of the state of CT provide for and demand the release of such information. It is one of the cornerstones that form the basis of a free, open & democratic society. It is the *law* - period.

Thank god....

I'm not exactly sure what the point of this thread is. I doubt many people here would argue that the police should release all the information they have on a case as soon as possible. What people will argue however, is that after a case has been resolved and concluded, then people should have access to the data and facts which produced that conclusion. I don't see anything wrong with that, if all the information is sealed up forever then people wont ever have a chance to make up their own minds about the facts and it would be very easy to cover up things they don't want the public to know.

As for why anyone would bother researching this stuff... you really need to ask yourself why does anyone do anything? Why are you on ATS in the first place unless you like a good mystery and a bit of detective work? If you think such detective work is boring and pointless then I really don't understand what you are doing here in the first place... just to tell us how stupid it is and to make us feel bad for doing it? To be honest I only research a mass murder when it's surrounded by very suspicious circumstances. Personally I've never looked into the Sandy Hook investigation because it didn't look excessively suspicious.

reply to post by havok


Very articulate and well said! It is disheartening to be cast into certain categories for wanting to know more about any particular mass shooting that has glaring discrepancies such as the Navy yard shooting(why was the swat team called off), or the Sikh shooting in Wisconsin(reports of multiple shooters from witnesses). Some shootings have many many more discrepancies like Aurora and Sandy Hook. It should come as no surprise that when a particular shooting gets major national attention, there is going to be that many more people asking questions, especially when 3/4 of what is said by the media and "official sources" ends up being untrue. When you factor in the gun grab that used certain tragedies as an emotional plea to change our 2nd amendment rights, you will have even more scrutiny of those events.

There have been many mass shootings and school shootings that don't get the conspiracy attention, and for good reason, there is no conspiracy to be had.

Here is a list of school shootings that go back to 1760 link.

Here is CNN's list of the 25 deadliest mass shootings link, only a few of those have conspiracies to them.

DJW001
Now that the latest report on the latest mass murder is being released, there is a stir of excitement among certain members of these boards. No matter what information is released or what conclusions reached, they will be rejecting them while clamoring for more. They seem to think they have an inalienable right to unlimited access to crime scenes and reports. They don't. Go check the Constitution. Here are my questions to those people: What is your interest in mass murder? Why do you find it so interesting? What do you feel can be accomplished by viewing photos of mutilated children? Why do you watch videos of grieving parents so closely? What do you hope to learn? How does it affect you personally? What contribution do you hope to make to society?

Let's try a role play. Pretend that I am the Governor of a state that has just suffered a terrible tragedy. I have the power to release all the information gathered during the course of an official law enforcement investigation, including crime scene photos, interviews with witnesses, autopsy reports and so forth. Try to convince me to give you unlimited access to these files. Remember, as Governor, my duty is to protect the best interest of my constituents, the citizens of our state. Also, I must provide for the smooth and efficient working of government. Here is why I have not allowed amateur "investigators" to visit the scene and have been guarded about releasing information.

1. Crime scenes are chaotic enough without unauthorized people getting underfoot. They can obliterate important clues or, by accident or design, leave false or misleading evidence.

2. Our law enforcement professionals must work as quickly and efficiently as possible; they cannot spend all their time in press conferences or answering questions posed by individuals.

3. Victims and witnesses have been traumatized enough without being exposed to public pressure. It is both in their best interest and the interest of an efficient investigation that they be shielded from unnecessary questioning.

4. Many witnesses will testify only on the promise of confidentiality. (That one is guaranteed by the Constitution!)

5. Certain technical reports, such as autopsies and ballistics tests may not be properly understood by the general public. They are best left to professionals who can interpret them in a court of law, if necessary.

6. Crime scene photographs can be traumatizing, even to those not directly involved, and certainly anguishing to survivors. They should only be released on a "need to know" basis, such as in the case of a legal proceeding.

7. Psychological studies suggest that mass murderers find inspiration from previous atrocities. It is my opinion that giving them as little publicity as possible is sound and wise policy.

There. Try to convince me that your "need to know" outweighs what I firmly believe to be in the best public interest.

edit on 26-11-2013 by DJW001 because: Polishing, always polishing. --DJW001

edit on 26-11-2013 by DJW001 because: (no reason given)

That's a lot of questions you want answered! In response, I'll answer some of them if you can answer this question.
Why was it necessary to demolish Sandy Hook Elementary? Columbine High School was repaired, reopened, and was damaged far worse.