Astronomers Detect First 'Clear Signs of Civilization' Beyond Earth - How will you react?

I think the long and the short of it, in examining the finely tuned dynamics of the earth-moon-sun system/configuration in favor of life on earth as we know it - is that it takes a heck of a lot more than just having the right ingredients present in the "Habitable Zone" or "Goldilocks Zone" for the "porridge" to be "just right".

However, if we can deduce super-intelligent design from a first cause in a Von Neumann/Moon-Seed hypothesis, as a type of "keystone" for an earth-like planet, then there is every reason to believe that it's a self-replicating phenomenon implanted into the accretion disk of galactic formation or in other words that if it can be done once, then the same thing can be done and is likely to have occured over and over again in an almost identical fashion - unless, Earth itself is at the very farthest end or point of a long-term cosmological evolutionary process that just so happens to be weighted in favor of life according to the finely tuned laws of physics, constants and initial conditions, combined with what the atheists would try to convince us is an absolute "fluke" or "coincidence" i.e.: according to the traditional lunar formation hypothesis of purely random collisions during solar system and earth formation, which would have a rather difficult time explaining, imho, the unique properties of our current Earth-Moon-Sun Configuration (MUST SEE) - in which case, Earth-like planets would and must then be considered to be an exceedingly rare phenomenon, and are not likely to be discovered in the local neighborhood of our own galaxy.

By "Earth-like" i mean with animals walking and flying around like we have here on Earth as the byproduct of a long-term sustained evolutionary development, due, in no small part and in fact in every way, to the dynamics of our earth-moon-sun system/configuration.

That does not mean to say that we will not find exo-planets with the signature of life. just not one with city lights or anything quite like the Earth, unless.. the Earth is like a cookie cutter model for life, formed by intelligent design from a first cause, with original intent and by anticipation, then it, the process for creating Earth-like worlds, could be expected, if not a mere "fluke" or "coincidence", to be very much like a self replicating Von Neumann Probe - LifeSeed, which goes into the "recipe" of galactic formation, in which case we could expect to find other Earth-like worlds to be more prevalent or ubiquitous, not only in the universe, but also within our own galaxy.

So yes, if you believe in a super-infinite intelligent creator or UCA (unknown creative agency), who made everything, including life on earth by design and with an original intent or by anticipation beginning with the end in mind) then it's more likely that Earth-like worlds exist in our galaxy, but if you do not believe in any of that even as as a possibility, but are convinced that life on earth is the byproduct of an astronomical "fluke" or "coincidence", then it's much much MUCH less likely that we can expect to find other Earth-like worlds in our own galaxy.

Oh the irony!

NewAgeMan
in which case, Earth-like planets would and must then be considered to be an exceedingly rare phenomenon, and are not likely to be discovered in the local neighborhood of our own galaxy.

I dont think you understand what the word Galaxy entails... the chances of NOT finding an earth like planet in our home galaxy would be an " exceedingly rare phenomenon " . The number of suns in our galaxy alone are in the 100s of billions, and if each sun had even a single planet but only earth is the earth like world of our galaxy thats a ratio of 1:200,000,000,000 (200 billion plus acording to Nasa)... which is impossible, pure chance and randomness would dictate with those HUGE numbers that there'd be at least a few thousand worlds like ours in our galaxy alone even if you take a very very conservative probability like say 1 in 10 million or so.

From what ive seen of your posts your obviously of religious bent, if what a little *spins his fingers around his ear*, nothing wrong with that I was and still retain various religious ideals and ideas. But trying to justify the old adage that earth is the one and only since to think otherwise would stuff the concept of god and our relationship with him is ridiculous. There can be other worlds a stones throw away, doesnt mean we are any less valid or that god suddenly vanishes in a puff of logic.

After all, if earth is supposed to the one and only for our galaxy... what the hell is the rest of the galaxy for? Gods topary garden and where the little fish pond in the far corner?

Gods one hell of an odd ball creator if thats the case.

Belief in a creator or not doesnt increase or reduce the chances of finding or the expectation of finding earth like worlds...

Edit:- rereading your post I think I may have gotten where your coming from a little wrong, still what I say in my opinion is still valid for the most part (If not for your self).

reply to post by BigfootNZ


You're assuming, maybe you didn't catch my edit, nor appreciate the nature of the earth-moon-system by which an Earth-like planet is made possible.

Your argument, based in randomness alone with a possibility matrix, doesn't increase the probability of another Earth, but actually diminishes it.

Edit to add: If "God" (intelligent design with intent and by anticipation) was/is involved, then it's a whole new ballgame, increasing by many many orders of magnitude the possibility that Earth is a cookie-cutter model for a self-replicating process.

It's not the belief itself, that alters the possibility, but the fundamental difference between two opposing and mutually exclusive hypothesis, one, intelligent design, and two, random fluke, which would have a rather hard time explaining THIS (MUST SEE)

Therefore, in conclusion, based on the hypothesis of intelligent design, but NOT fluke/coincidence, my own hope for the discovery of other Earth-like worlds, is bolstered.

But if we get a sample of millions of planets in the Habitable Zone and don't find an Earth-twin, then I might have to start tipping in favor of the fluke/coincidence hypothesis.. in which case I suppose we would all develop a much greater appreciation for what we have and can enjoy right here on this green Earth.

reply to post by JadeStar



Goes to the Line !! of what Happens Next... after 2019 we send a probe to the planet at warp Speed aka Warp Drive ... to this planet because our own planet is Failing to stabilize





Meet the NASA scientist devising a starship warp drive

19 August 2013 by Anne-Marie Corley
Magazine issue 2930. Subscribe and save
www.newscientist.com...-BU


Pandorum
en.wikipedia.org...

In 2174, with Earth's human overpopulation crisis causing resources to be very limited, humanity builds an sleeper ship/interstellar ark named Elysium. The mission is to send 60,000 people on a 123-year trip to an Earth-like planet named Tanis to establish civilization there.

Prometheus

Prometheus (2012 film)

In 2089, archaeologists Elizabeth Shaw and Charlie Holloway discover a star map in Scotland that matches others from several unconnected ancient cultures. They interpret this as an invitation from humanity's forerunners, the "Engineers". Peter Weyland, the elderly CEO of Weyland Corporation, funds an expedition to follow the map to the distant moon LV-223 aboard the scientific vessel Prometheus. The ship's crew-members travel in stasis while the android David monitors their voyage. Arriving in 2093, they are informed of their mission to find the Engineers. Mission director Meredith Vickers orders the crew not to make contact without her permission.

en.wikipedia.org...(2012_film)



Well it just might happen as how far we got in just a 100 years time...

from a Civilization type Zero to a One !! but I doubt In my Time..


Nice Fictional Article tho..


Tho Jules Verne had Written a Book that was Made into a reality
AND! Rocket Scientist Robert Goddard Warner Van Braun
Read this Fictional BOOK as Children and was influenced so Much They made it in to A reality
Art becomes Life !

From the Earth to the Moon
en.wikipedia.org...

Consider the following amazing predictions by Verne in his novel which came to pass:
er.jsc.nasa.gov...

So Whos To Say ?


Fiction To inspire Great Minds !

NewAgeMan
reply to post by BigfootNZ

 

You're assuming, maybe you didn't catch my edit, nor appreciate the nature of the earth-moon-system by which an Earth-like planet is made possible.

Your argument, based in randomness alone with a possibility matrix, doesn't increase the probability of another Earth, but actually diminishes it.

Edit to add: If "God" (intelligent design with intent and by anticipation) was/is involved, then it's a whole new ballgame, increasing by many many orders of magnitude the possibility that Earth is a cookie-cutter model for a self-replicating process.

It's not the belief itself, that alters the possibility, but the fundamental difference between two opposing and mutually exclusive hypothesis, one, intelligent design, and two, random fluke, which would have a rather hard time explaining THIS (MUST SEE)

Therefore, in conclusion, based on the hypothesis of intelligent design, but NOT fluke/coincidence, my hopes for the discovery of other Earth-like worlds, is bolstered.

I added a addendum to my post right after since I read your post again and had confused a few parts.

Im not saying the earth moon relationship isnt something special, although saying its unique or not by chance when we (the oens saying it) are the ones living next to the 'unique' with no other example or ability to find any other similar example at this moment in time is kinda iffy (we can only just now find and detect alien worlds, finding their moons is gonna take a while). Its like a person whos never left their house saying look at this unique blossoming tree thats growing here in my back yard, ive got no other like it in my garden its so special, and from what I can see none of my neighbors have it growing in their gardens so where did it come from who planeted it... *camera pulls back to a birds eye view and we see that a few properties over every other garden has the same tree or more in it*

Heck we have many planets in our own system with Moons, im sure somewhere at some point their moons eclipse the sun in some manner. Until we can reside on these neighbouring planets we wont really know, although im sure someones done the maths already to make a simulation of such things.

Using a random system doesnt reduce the chances of anything (and randomness is not really how it works any way, after all the goldilocks zone changes radically depending on what sort of sun a planet is around (to the point where you can have a earth like world as close and as far away from its sun as you want to a degree), and life more or less happens as long as they have the right materials, and if you have microbial life residing in comets then you dont even need the primordial goo if the bacteria survive the entry and the environment is suitable for them to gain a foot hold), randomness doesn't really matter particularly given the countless number of planets out their around their billions of suns in our galaxy alone. Given the shear uncountable numbers the more we revise the number (which the more they do the higher the number of estimated planets become it seems) the greater the chances of finding other earths increases as well.

You dont need a creator to up the chances, the chances by 'randomness' are already so bloody damn high that we will most definitely in my opinion find other earth like worlds with or with out a moon like ours in great number in our own galaxy. That being said doesnt mean you have to throw the idea of a creator out the window.

DARREN1976
I would say "HAH!" "Told you so!"

And then what?

In a way, it would be kind of sad. Rather than being a quirky, independent-thinking visionary, you'd just become one more of the billions of ordinary people who would just know something. I guess you could spend the rest of your life proclaiming, "Yeah, I knew about it before everybody else did!" But nobody would care.

reply to post by BigfootNZ

BigfootNZ

Heck we have many planets in our own system with Moons, im sure somewhere at some point their moons eclipse the sun in some manner. Until we can reside on these neighboring planets we wont really know, although im sure someones done the maths already to make a simulation of such things.

No our moon is the only one that perfectly eclipses the sun from the POV of the host planet. There are also numerous other very curious whole round number integers which apply to the geometrical configuration of the earth-moon-sun system which do not apply to any other moon-planet in our solar system.

I think or suspect, that in the context of our galaxy, our planet, being so perfectly tuned in favor of life, while possibly containing a type of sign or signature in the very curious earth-moon-sun configuration pointing to intelligent design by anticipation, that while we are sure to find the biological signature of life on other planets in the galaxy, what they will show will be various manifestations of a cosmic evolutionary process of which Earth is the perfect model, or pinnacle of Life (in the Milky Way), so while they may have life, they will likely be planets appearing to show various stages in the evolutionary process, worlds half frozen, worlds rocked by massive storms, etc etc, each representing something like a stage in the evolutionary process leading up to Earth as the perfect model and the pinnacle of Planetary-Life perfection, in the long, cosmic evolutionary process.

And if we've been visited by advanced alien races, which I think we have, then they are almost certainly coming here, not from the Milky Way, but from another Galaxy altogether via some sort of warp/quantum jumping, instantaneous "travel", where the reason that we're not already colonized, is due to the exceedingly rare occurrence of such worlds, even in galactic terms, combined with some sort of "Prime Directive" principal of non-intervention whereby those who've managed to get here, are so developed, ethically, that they are not inclined to invade or colonize by displacement, although that doesn't explain the evil Grey Alien race if there is such a one.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

As to advanced alien civilizations and the Fermi paradox, based on their behavior in relation to the Japanese Airline flight, and other aircraft in the month following that encounter, it becomes apparent that, when they encounter another race, that instead of warring with them over territory and resources, they "dance" around one another as a display of technological prowess, where "bullying" just isn't in their M.O. In our case it would appear that they were perplexed that we couldn't do the dance, so they just showed off a little bit and then took off.

Perhaps it's not a matter of "taking over" the universe or laying claim to it by force, but appropriating everything there is to know about it via travel and visitation, and that our assumption about a desire for colonization and physical expansion, is simply mistaken.

Astronomers Detect First 'Clear Signs of Civilization' Beyond Earth - How will you react?
page: 1

You know that feeling you get when you almost fall over,
when leaning back on a chairs two legs.

That X 3.

Wolfenz


Fiction To inspire Great Minds !

Indeed.

Thanks for including the Miguel Alcubierre warp drive stuff as well. We should know soon if such a thing is possible but it will be many, many years before such a thing will be able to be constructed.

It's kind of like this: early human beings saw flight in nature. Birds do it. Insects do it. But we couldn't do it. If Miguel Alcubierre warp theory proves to be correct it might take us from the time that we said, "aha, maybe we can fly too" to the Wright brothers to achieve it.

Right now, we don't have the energy needed to do it on a grand scale if it turns out to be possible. But if it turns out to be possible then chances are someone else in the universe will have figured it out before us.

Perhaps we'll find a way to harness dark matter (when we figure out what it actually is) or tap the zero point energy or something but its going to take something beyond nuclear fission, fusion or even anti-matter/matter reactors to generate the kind of power his warp drive would need.

Cue up classic quotes from Scotty from Star Trek....

Also it's interesting that many people don't know that both Pandora and Prometheus are actually small, asteroidal moons of Saturn.

Still waiting for the first sci-fi story to feature the moon Enceladus. In reality this moon erupts liquid water (which quickly freezes) into space from geysers shown below:

Blue Shift

DARREN1976
I would say "HAH!" "Told you so!"

And then what?

In a way, it would be kind of sad. Rather than being a quirky, independent-thinking visionary, you'd just become one more of the billions of ordinary people who would just know something. I guess you could spend the rest of your life proclaiming, "Yeah, I knew about it before everybody else did!" But nobody would care.

OR......one could go back to college and learn how to find out more about the civilization, perhaps making the next discovery.

In the universe, if there is one or two of something, there's probably a billion or more of it. It's just a matter of looking in the right place.


Do you think any of you would be inspired enough by such a discovery to perhaps change your life's path?

NewAgeMan
No our moon is the only one that perfectly eclipses the sun from the POV of the host planet. There are also numerous other very curious whole round number integers which apply to the geometrical configuration of the earth-moon-sun system which do not apply to any other moon-planet in our solar system.

But the thing is... what does any of that have to do with the moon being special for life? We got lucky being born on a planet with a moon that fits nicely over the sun during a solar eclipse, if it didn't we wouldn't have people attaching significance to it, someone found something interesting and attempts to say this is more than coincidence with out having any actual evidence it isnt simply that. Ascribing some special reason for that when we haven't got the ability to find out if there aren't other examples of it in the universes is pretty premature.

BigfootNZ

NewAgeMan
No our moon is the only one that perfectly eclipses the sun from the POV of the host planet. There are also numerous other very curious whole round number integers which apply to the geometrical configuration of the earth-moon-sun system which do not apply to any other moon-planet in our solar system.

But the thing is... what does any of that have to do with the moon being special for life? We got lucky being born on a planet with a moon that fits nicely over the sun during a solar eclipse, if it didn't we wouldn't have people attaching significance to it.

Um, if it wasn't the way it is, we ourselves would not be here and are the only one's for whom such a configuration could be meaningful or significant and like I said, it goes much further than the phenomenon of eclipse, double eclipse, since the shadow of the earth also perfectly eclipses the moon's circumference. The various factors and integers involved are actually quite extraordinary, including an unusual pyramidal geometrical relationship between the earth and moon which is utterly extraordinary in terms of how it can be reduced to a Phi Ratio triangle.

Check it out!

I don't have the time to lay it all out, but the data can be found in a book called "Who Built the Moon?"
pdf (although too thin to be very readable).
Forget their conclusion, and just examine the data. It's extraordinary, and seems to show all the hallmarks of an intelligent design, and a message of sorts intended for none other than we ourselves as sentient observers and the ONLY ones for whom such a "message" or "sign" or "signature" could be meaningful. It's quite unmistakable, and random happenstance or "coincidence" or "fluke" just doesn't cut it, and neither can the anthropic principal render the observation and the data meaningless, that's the weird part about it, that the observation itself IS meaningful and significant by virtue of the fact that we CAN notice it, and measure it. Again, it (double eclipse, earth-moon geometrical relationship) and all the various round whole number integers, apply exclusively to the earth-moon-sun system and not to any of the other planets-moons in the solar system.

Here are some of those numbers to take a look at

moonnumerology.blogspot.ca...


You seem to be missing the point I'm making. Don't jump the gun, review the data first, digest and ponder it, then reply. Thanks.

Your impulse to ascribe to it nothing more than a "coincidence" reveals a type of bias against the possibility of intelligent design, and doesn't bode so well for Earth as an "analogue" for self-replication.

Best Regards,

NAM

Edit to add: Here is but a small snapshot of the kind of thing I'm talking about, which represents only a fraction of the amount of "coincidences" involved, just to show you that this isn't merely some sort of solipsistic confirmation bias.



P.S. In ancient, ancient earth history, when the moon was much closer to the earth and would have visibly appeared 12-15 times larger in the sky, most of these strange "coincidences" did not exist/occur, and, in the far distant future, they will disappear.

It's only in the midst of the epoch that they do present themselves, that there just so happens to be earth-based sentient observers, to notice them, by observation, and measurement.

Again, I am NOT trying to argue here for Earth exclusivity, just pointing out some facts about life on earth, including human life, which is an actual byproduct of the earth-moon-sun system/configuration.

Also, many of the whole round number integers involved in the earth-moon-sun configuration reduce to 400 or multipliers of 400, or 2 by 2 by 10 by 10.

Really Enjoyed reading this. S+f Very well put together, Good Job.

If this is a poll, I'd say ALL RIGHT.

Do you, readers, sponsors, or whatever the agenda is, believe this would be the end of it?
I think it would be the beginning.
At last.
Eager to see it sooner than later.

I'm going to Wal-Mart and Home Depot and my Dealers house and the Scrap Yard and building myself a rocket. I'll google the plans along the way.

NewAgeMan
reply to post by JadeStar

 

hi JadeStar,

When you wake up and return to this thread tomorrow or when next you do, i have a question.


What do the planetary formation models show with respect to lunar obits, in terms of all the different ways that such a relationship might fall into a permanent, long term equilibrium and what does that looks like for the moon from it's perspective, in terms of daylight, and the various cyclical motions producing it's "seasons" and basic annual calendar year, coupled with it's host planet. It would be interesting to know what those configurations might look like from the moon's POV.

Simple question eh?

I had a whole long answer written out then my computer had an issue and turned itself off. Then I came back to ATS and got a 503 error "can not connect to server" error.

Anyway, short answer is that it all depends on the orbit of the planet around the central star, the eccentricity of that orbit as well as the same for the moons around the planet. Most circular or low eccentricity orbits look good.

Moons are created in almost every planetary formation model, and there are several ways for a planet to get moons either by collision, accretion or capture. Whether they get ejected or not are is a matter of conditions.

Sentient life-based planets like Earth otoh, may be much more rare, requiring something not entirely dissimilar from the moon-earth-sun configuration.

If so then there could also be many planets where BOTH the host planet AND the moon have life (of some kind), even with more than one moon harboring different forms of life.

What is most exciting about moons is that we know of several gas giants bigger than Jupiter in habitable zones. Presumably they have moons (though we have not detected exomoons yet searches are ongoing). Anyway, large moons, perhaps as large or larger than the Earth in around these planets could be habitable, leading to a very real possibility of having multiple habitable moons around one giant planet.

What about moon-life, to what degree has that been considered and when can we look for it, that's probably not 'til the SKA, in like 2022 or thereabouts.

Well first things first, we gotta find those exomoons before we can look for life on one. To that end we're already looking for Exomoons.

One group called HEK (Hunting Exomoons With Kepler) is pouring through Kepler lightcurves looking for that tell tale sign that a moon is tugging ever so slightly on a known planet.

Here's more on the hunt for Exomoons:
The Hunt is on for Habitable Exomoons- Discovery News

Our solar system is full of moons. Of the 8 major planets, 6 of them have at least one natural satellite in tow, and several of those moons are very interesting places. Icy moons in the outer solar system may even be secretly harboring life. But what about moons elsewhere in the galaxy?

The Hunt for Exomoons with Kepler (HEK) is an astronomy project intended to try and find exomoons. And not just any exomoons; the kind of moons that could be a haven for life. While the Kepler telescope has, sadly, been forced into retirement, the data it collected lives on. And there’s a lot of data still to sift though.

The idea of habitable moons is already well known to fans of science fiction. From Star Wars to Prometheus, the idea of a habitable world orbiting a gas giant is quite well ingrained on our collective subconscious. Perhaps this is what inspired the idea back in 2009 that we could look for exomoons with Kepler.

So it's "game on" for finding these moons!

Next ten years. Should know. It's coming, the announcement of extraterrestrial life, but not necessarily and not likely an advanced ET civilization, as exciting as that would be, but if it's out there (life) somewhere, we'll find it eventually, even if we have to build a telescope the size of our entire solar system to see it. Then again as you've pointed out in the OP and throughout this thread, the instruments are all coming on line now, and for the next 10-20 years.

Yes. Its pretty much like this. We'll most likely find life in the next 20 years. If life leads to civilizations fairly frequently then we'll find one within the search space out to a distance of about 600-1000 light years. If civilization is rare then we'll have to wait longer to find it, but the instruments coming online in the next decade should find any nearby neighbors we might have.

Not finding a civilization within 1,000 light years of the earth will tell us either 1) we have to build more sensitive instruments 2) civilizations are separated by larger distances than 600-1000 light years or 3) civilization does not typically last long.

It's out there, but there aren't likely to be a whole lot of ten fingered typists in our shoes, like on Star Trek where every planet's life is humanoid.

I agree, but I do think there will be different "models" of environment manipulators which work just as good as 10 digits. While they won't all be humanoid I do expect that stereoscopic vision (two eyes) will be common on planets similar to ours. the amount of appendages (arms, legs, wheels) might be different. And yes, I expect somewhere, a creature exists that has wheels or something similar made of bone and flesh rather than legs. Star Trek aliens they won't necessarily be but that scene in the original Star Wars movie where they were all partying and looked bizarre. That's probably a better representation of the diversity of species.

BigfootNZ

NewAgeMan
No our moon is the only one that perfectly eclipses the sun from the POV of the host planet. There are also numerous other very curious whole round number integers which apply to the geometrical configuration of the earth-moon-sun system which do not apply to any other moon-planet in our solar system.

But the thing is... what does any of that have to do with the moon being special for life? We got lucky being born on a planet with a moon that fits nicely over the sun during a solar eclipse, if it didn't we wouldn't have people attaching significance to it,

^^ This.

There used to be a thought that without the moon tidal pools which mixed together the ingredients for life would not have occurred but beyond the assumption that you need tidal pools for life to develop (a dubious assumption knowing what we know now about extremophiles) there is the assumption that only the moon would have caused tides. Without the moon we'd have had tides due to the Sun and weather (wind).

someone found something interesting and attempts to say this is more than coincidence with out having any actual evidence it isnt simply that. Ascribing some special reason for that when we haven't got the ability to find out if there aren't other examples of it in the universes is pretty premature.

Agreed. There's just too much out there to find before we can say our situation is special. It looks less special every day.

Now that does not mean that we as humans are not wonderful beings capable of amazing things. Nor would finding an intelligence older and more advanced than us negate all of our accomplishments.

All it means is that like Jeff Goldblum's character said in Jurassic Park: "Life finds a way."

reply to post by JadeStar

JadeStar

What is most exciting about moons is that we know of several gas giants bigger than Jupiter in habitable zones. Presumably they have moons (though we have not detected exomoons yet searches are ongoing). Anyway, large moons, perhaps as large or larger than the Earth in around these planets could be habitable, leading to a very real possibility of having multiple habitable moons around one giant planet.

The moons themselves might have moons.

Tidal locking is a bit of a problem however isn't it? How many moons in our solar system are not already tidally locked, and what do they DO could you tell us about that and/or share some favorite moon pics of yours from our solar system? That would make for a cool addition to this thread, imho.

reply to post by JadeStar


My money is on exomoons. NAM, all in! [pushes whole pile of chips forward].

Exomoons.

Sounds cool too. lol!