Astronomers Detect First 'Clear Signs of Civilization' Beyond Earth - How will you react?

SheopleNation

Mon1k3r
Why is that dated September 25th, 2019? Is this a story?

I believe the OP made that perfectly clear in the very first sentence. Nothing personal, Just saying.

~$heopleNation

To be fair, Mon1k3r typed that before I added the disclaimer atop the page. I thought the future date would be enough of a sign that it was a future hypothetical scenario but when that proved not to be the case I added the disclaimer to avoid any confusion and get down to business.

Totally awesome thread! Thanks for the opportunity to participate, although I'm sad that we're on a new page, because I too put a lot of work into the info I was presenting on the last page and wanted to make sure everyone had an opportunity to digest it as part of this entire evaluative and investigative process (people please check it out, one page back, thanks).

Best Regards,

NAM aka Bob
(Hopeful future Earth starship captain/first colonial governor, in another life 1000 years from now)

NewAgeMan


Once SKA is fully on-line in about 12-15 years from now, we'll have a sample of millions of planets, right down to the atmospheric composition, then with that kind of sample size, we'll have a much much better idea, but I strongly suspect that we're going to be both disappointed in regards to finding an earth-twin, and elated, in finding a rocky water world, even if it's partly frozen with storms raging over the rest of it.

Best Regards,

NAM

edit on 26-11-2013 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)

Well we're at least in agreement on looking forward to the SKA

As for the Earth twin, that's coming probably before the SKA is online. The James Webb Space Telescope, the successor to Hubble (due for launch in 2018) might just be able to identify one which TESS (The Transiting Exoplanet Survey Satellite - due for launch in 2017) will have marked for a closer look.

TESS is a lot like Kepler but its mission is different. Where Kepler looked at just a big field of stars 600-2000 light years away for transiting planets, TESS will look at all the closest stars in our neighborhood to see which ones have transiting planets.

If TESS finds a nearby Earth analogue (and it is estimated that it could turn up a few) then the James Webb Space Telescope might be able to get a better look at it and look for signs of life by studying its atmosphere:

Life After Kepler: www.universetoday.com...

So chances are we might have an Earth analog before the SKA is completed.

Also keep in mind that ALMA, the E-ELT and the TMT will have robust capabilities to study exoplanet atmospheres from the ground. All of them are scheduled to be completed before SKA.

I would be happy.
Finally proof that we are not alone.

30 seconds later I would stock up on food,water and firearms because the world will go insane.

Did Jesus die there too?
Did they get a koran?
Do they have commandments?


As a though experiment its a lovely post. But we have to realize that the world is not a rational place. Emotions rule us.or more accurately ,rational people use our emotions to rule us.

I think on a global scale,we would face a social collapse. A fatwa to destroy the ways of communication with the unbelieveing aliens; a statement by the Westboro Baptist Church that aliens are demons. The DoD leaking info that they were aware of this planet and have been working on defence plans...but they will need alot of cash.

I think,sadly,that the vast majority of mankind would be better off not knowing. Those who want to know should swear to never mention it,write about it,or blog about it.

Sorry double post

BlackSnake
a statement by the Westboro Baptist Church that aliens are demons.

And the few remaining people who might still follow them, outside of observatories, with picket signs saying "God Hates Geeks" and alternatively. "Science = Satan".

JadeStar

NewAgeMan


Once SKA is fully on-line in about 12-15 years from now, we'll have a sample of millions of planets, right down to the atmospheric composition, then with that kind of sample size, we'll have a much much better idea, but I strongly suspect that we're going to be both disappointed in regards to finding an earth-twin, and elated, in finding a rocky water world, even if it's partly frozen with storms raging over the rest of it.

Best Regards,

NAM

edit on 26-11-2013 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)

Well we're at least in agreement on looking forward to the SKA

As for the Earth twin, that's coming probably before the SKA is online. The James Webb Space Telescope, the successor to Hubble (due for launch in 2018) might just be able to identify one which TESS (The Transiting Exoplanet Survey Satellite - due for launch in 2017) will have marked for a closer look.

TESS is a lot like Kepler but its mission is different. Where Kepler looked at just a big field of stars 600-2000 light years away for transiting planets, TESS will look at all the closest stars in our neighborhood to see which ones have transiting planets.

If TESS finds a nearby Earth analogue (and it is estimated that it could turn up a few) then the James Webb Space Telescope might be able to get a better look at it and look for signs of life by studying its atmosphere:

Life After Kepler: www.universetoday.com...

So chances are we might have an Earth analog before the SKA is completed.

Also keep in mind that ALMA, the E-ELT and the TMT will have robust capabilities to study exoplanet atmospheres from the ground. All of them are scheduled to be completed before SKA.

edit on 26-11-2013 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)

Ah, i KNEW you'd be a huge fan of SKA, it's the ultimate, and super-fast with mega processing power, a true galactic survey, at all levels, but most importantly, exo-planet spectroscopy, down the the molecular composition of the atmosphere, thus proving extraterrestrial life. It's coming, you're right, but it won't necessarily be lit by city lights! You've got me though in the sense that i cannot say that it's impossible. It's just not probable that we will detect an ET civilization, particularly not in our local neighborhood.


i predict that the first life will be found, not on a planet, but on a moon. A planet offers a wide arc of protection, and you could see how a moon might be able to get into an equilibrium, which is much more apt to happen, using the moon's with planets analogue as you call it. Getting an earth moon system even remotely capable of simulating an earth on the other hand, is a much less likely for reasons that we covered last page, but the MOONS are everywhere... think about it. Way way WAY more moons than planets... so if you're a creator, while this Earth is a perfect model for long term sustained evolutionary development in perfect favor of life, what do you do but throw in an infinite number of MOONS.

Look again at our earth-moon-sun system, the other planets all with multiple moons, and each moon in a dynamical orbital relationship with it's host.


i say that the MOON's are alive, with the sound of music..

Living Moon

reply to post by JadeStar


hi JadeStar,

When you wake up and return to this thread tomorrow or when next you do, i have a question.


What do the planetary formation models show with respect to lunar obits, in terms of all the different ways that such a relationship might fall into a permanent, long term equilibrium and what does that looks like for the moon from it's perspective, in terms of daylight, and the various cyclical motions producing it's "seasons" and basic annual calendar year, coupled with it's host planet. It would be interesting to know what those configurations might look like from the moon's POV.

Sentient life-based planets like Earth otoh, may be much more rare, requiring something not entirely dissimilar from the moon-earth-sun configuration.

If so then there could also be many planets where BOTH the host planet AND the moon have life (of some kind), even with more than one moon harboring different forms of life.

What about moon-life, to what degree has that been considered and when can we look for it, that's probably not 'til the SKA, in like 2022 or thereabouts.

Next ten years. Should know. It's coming, the announcement of extraterrestrial life, but not necessarily and not likely an advanced ET civilization, as exciting as that would be, but if it's out there (life) somewhere, we'll find it eventually, even if we have to build a telescope the size of our entire solar system to see it. Then again as you've pointed out in the OP and throughout this thread, the instruments are all coming on line now, and for the next 10-20 years.

It's out there, but there aren't likely to be a whole lot of ten fingered typists in our shoes, like on Star Trek where every planet's life is humanoid.

I think "they" who've come, and some really have (see Japanese Airlines UFO vid i posted earlier in this thread), are more than likely from another galaxy, in all truth.

We'll find life in our galaxy beyond earth, but not an advanced civilization. They're not coming from here, from the Milky Way. They could be, but it's not likely i don't think based on what we're seeing so far anyway.

And yes, the earth-moon-sun system is very unique and absolutely perfectly weighted and tilted in favor of life and the four seasons, and the weather. it's an astounding phenomenon in and of itself, a perfect model for planetary life. Like it couldn't be better. We can't reduce it's significance by finding another, it doesn't work that way, because it's all one cosmological unity.

And if our earth-moon-sun system is like a trick up God's cosmic sleeve, by God then who knows what else might be possible particularly given that it is self evident that the cosmos is weighted in favor of life here in this way, with a single, giant moon.

Tell your colleagues to look to the moons, i guess we can't see them yet, but if it's possible...

Hay here's one for you.

I'll make you a little bet, a purely gentlemen's bet that their first ID on life with be a false positive, meaning that they'll pick it up, then discover in the process that it's not the planet, but the moon that is alive.

Odds would be in my favor.. what do you say, are you on for that?

is there anywhere where i could place that bet surely there must be, what a bet to make!

Best,

NAM


edit to add: Tidal locking. Forgot about that, where the same face of the moon always faces it's host planet such that the rate of rotation perfectly matches it's orbital rotation. No "seasons" in that case.

There are 30 something moons in our own solar system which are tidal locked. How many are there then that do this compared to the total number of moons in our solar system, and what do the remaining ones do, that's something worth looking into, but the damn tidal locking phenomenon knocks a real blow into the living moon hypothesis. Darn, i really thought i was onto something there.

So while the "living moons" are, perhaps, possible, it's much more likely to be a host planet with one or more moons in some sort of dance in favor of life.

Our moon really kicks butt though as far as moon's favoring a thriving, sustained evolutionary process perfectly weighted in favor of life, goes, it's really quite amazing, not insignificant in the least, which ought not be lost on us, no matter what we might find.

NAM, over and out, g'night.

reply to post by JadeStar


Im basically just countering those who seem to mention that any sort of alien life we might find that has a civilization on some far off world would be more advanced than us simply on the merit they aren't us. While they aren't really saying it (although some seem to iterate the idea alot) I just get a bit riled up when the human species is put down as being some how the bottom of the galactic pile in terms of achievements and spiritual things, given we havent got a clue whats really out there to compare ourselves with.

I completely forgot about this trilogy of books...

en.wikipedia.org...

I often read my copies of Helliconia Spring, Summer and Winter every couple of years. Its basically a scientifically derived story based on real ideas and scientific concepts from the 70s and 80's. Where humanity after exploring the galaxy and starting failed off world colonies, and finding only one other world with a species on it that by the time we got there had destroyed itself thousands of years earlier, discover an alien world as diverse as ours with a species of humanoid almost identical to our own living along with a species of large intelligent minotaur like creatures. The world has seasons that last for hundreds of years which impact the development of the two sentient species and their cultures resulting in short lived periods of development where they reach a sort of verge of industrial age era every few cycles. Humanity gives up space flight and instead sends out a generational space craft to create a a large orbiting satellite around the planet that sends back images and data that when it arrives at earth gets turned into sort of the ultimate reality TV show viewed and shared by the entire planet.

Its a good set of books, and its interesting to see how they play out the side story of earth and what happens to us as we view this alien worlds history centuries after its happened without them even knowing we are watching. A bit long in places (the entire trilogy is over 1000 pages) but worth a read given its a nice look at a similar scenario this thread discusses even from a historical point of view at what we're thinking a few decades ago about exo planets.

Who knows maybe we'll find our Helliconia in the not to distant future.

JadeStar

You're referencing the Fermi Paradox/Von Neuman Probe thing. It basically says that any species colonize the entire Galaxy in a few million years based on probabilities, the age of the Galaxy and the so on. The paradox seems to be that we see no signs of this. The other takeaway is that if a hostile species were out there and colonizing worlds chances are we would not be here now as it would have wiped out our precursors before we ever had a chance to evolve.

If there really is no evidence of ET travel to earth, then I would extend the Fermi Paradox to suggest that humans will never travel to other adjacent stars... There will never be a "Star Trek". Because if other far off civilizations can't reach, and have never reached us, then that would suggest we will never reach them.

However, I do think that there is some evidence that suggests ET civilizations might be visiting earth - although they certainly don't seem to be wanting to make overt contact with our civilization (as of yet).

President Hillary..what a damn joke that is. We as a nation would know really quick if we found life on a distant planet. Our Government would free up about 3 trillion dollars and shoot it to them in a damn aid package....After that we would cruise a Aircraft Carrier sized ship passed their planet with the words....."Universe Force for Good" plastered on the side. We would expect them to live in a democracy..if they did'nt we would bomb them into freedom.& democracy. Better yet, just drop Hillary off.She'll bore them into submission.

reply to post by JadeStar


very nicely written! apparently some readers did get confused lol maybe thought it was real.

I would personally tell some of my friends and people I know "Ha ,I told you so!"

s I have said before...
If there was life out there , we do Not want to meet them..

reply to post by NewAgeMan


If a moon had life, then its planet almost certainly has life too.

Just look at our moon. Its in the same band as earth is. Its rocky. There's ice, i.e. water. But as far as you know there is no life on it.

And earth is teeming with life.

For a planet to provide shelter for life on a moon, it almost certainly does for itself also.

I would welcome the news but hope the US government wasn't the first to make contact if so they would have them on welfare and food stamps with in the week and try pushing them to register on the healthcare.gov site or threaten to fine them.

>>>>>
The Fermi paradox (or Fermi's paradox) is the apparent contradiction between high estimates of the probability of the existence of extraterrestrial civilization and humanity's lack of contact with, or evidence for, such civilizations.[1] The basic points of the argument, made by physicists Enrico Fermi and Michael H. Hart, are:

The Sun is a young star. There are billions of stars in the galaxy that are billions of years older;
some of these stars likely have Earth-like planets[2] which, if the Earth is typical, may develop intelligent life;
presumably, some of these civilizations will develop interstellar travel, a technology Earth is investigating even now;
at any practical pace of interstellar travel, the galaxy can be completely colonized in a few tens of millions of years.

According to this line of thinking, the Earth should already have been colonized, or at least visited. But no convincing evidence of this exists. Furthermore, no confirmed signs of intelligence elsewhere have been spotted, either in our galaxy or in the more than 80 billion other galaxies of the observable universe. Hence Fermi's question, "Where is everybody?"[3]
>>>>>

Sorry for quoting this from WP....but I found it necessary just in case for those who are wondering what the Fermi Paradox actually is.

The question here: Are we actually capable/able to "detect" such civilizations - in other words: How can we know that there is really a "paradox" when we don't even have the technical means to check even the NEXT PLANET for life, conclusively. Let alone other stars let alone galaxies.

Thought 1)
"We are not visited" - is an assumption. Of course, any "abductee" would disagree. Would we be able to detect even a visiting civilization HERE ON EARTH? What about countless, sometimes more anecdotal accounts that we are (or have been) INDEED visited? Go ask some tribal indigenous cultures what they tell you.

As the famous statement goes...a civilization so highly advanced would appear to us "magical"....this nicely fits accounts even what we consider "esoteric" or "spiritual"....heck even RELIGION. How do we know that those things do not really stem from extraterrestrial visits and interactions with us humans?

Thought 2)
The idea that we humans are probably stemming AND ARE THE RESULT of such a colonization is not that abstruse as it may sound. I cannot discount the idea that we humans at one time were artificially "created" and that our origin may actually NOT be from Earth but literally "out there". Somewhere brought us here or maybe we're the result of some breeding program. Far fetched, yes, but nevertheless in the realm of likelihood.

Just saying I don't see a reason to call the Fermi Paradox a paradox...we're not able to/capable-of to verify this

JadeStar

You're referencing the Fermi Paradox/Von Neuman Probe thing. It basically says that any species colonize the entire Galaxy in a few million years based on probabilities, the age of the Galaxy and the so on. The paradox seems to be that we see no signs of this. The other takeaway is that if a hostile species were out there and colonizing worlds chances are we would not be here now as it would have wiped out our precursors before we ever had a chance to evolve.

In a nutshell:

In depth:

Watched the 2nd, in depth video last night, had to watch the whole thing before I went to bed. It was one of the most interesting talks I've ever seen.

Pondering...

NewAgeMan
reply to post by JadeStar

 

Also, if technologically advanced ET civilizations have visited earth, and there is rather compelling reason to believe they have, just check out this account of the Japanese Airlines encounter...

then the reason they would do so, or one reason they would come to visit would be the exceedingly rare occurrence of such a world, which leads me to suspect that any such visitors might just as easily be coming from another galaxy as from within our own galaxy, since either way, the distances involved in interstellar space travel are so vast that unless they are travelling through the intervening space over the course of 1000's of years, AT the speed of light, they are using some sort of instantaneous quantum jump directly from their local space, to our own.

Which would still beg the question re: colonization, particularly if it takes no time to traverse the stars for sufficiently advanced alien technology.

The only conclusion that can be drawn if there is evidence that they've made it here is that ALL such alien civilizations share, for reasons that we do not understand, a "prime directive" non-interventionalist approach, then again, if they can get here now, there's no reason to think that they could not have done so, a million or more years ago, prior to the rise of mankind.. therefore, our presence, must be part of an alien complicity, or, there are no such technologically advanced civilizations, and then we're back to that Japanese Airline encounter...

Maybe they are like farmers of some kind checking in from time to time on their crops..?

Our DNA then might hold the key, because what else could they possibly want other than cosmological genetic diversity, if they are "farming"?

Either way, whatever the "program" might be, unless ALL technologically advanced Civilizations can be trusted for some reason, based on a corresponding ethically/spiritually principled development that goes hand in hand with technological advance, in EVERY case - there MUST be some sort of universal COP/Police capable of regulating certain gateway access points in the space-time continuum, or as needed, imprisoning, to make any colonization or invasion, an impossibility. Then again, as I pointed out already, given the time span involved in the case of older stars, why would they not be permitted to colonize earth PRIOR to the emergence of mankind?

Therefore, mankind is the "program" here on earth with intent, and we're back to the "farming" allegory, but why would it be that ALL farmers can be trusted, and trusted never to "harvest" anything where they have not sown the seeds themselves, or to move into or in on another race's farm? so we're back to the universal cop/police theory.

One more thing to add to this conjecture - in the case of the Japanese Airline UFO encounter, although we cannot know their intentions, it seems as though, in following and buzzing the aircraft, that one and others in the month or so following that encounter, that they were curious about our very low level aviation technology, even playing around as if to say "hey look at what WE can do?". It's as if it seemed to be a novelty to them and they were having some fun with the pilots.

Pondering...

It would totally excite me into learning all I can about space. Buy a telescope or 2 and turn looking up into a hobby. Reading the article actually gave me goose bumps and I knew it wasn't real lol

reject
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

If a moon had life, then its planet almost certainly has life too.

Just look at our moon. Its in the same band as earth is. Its rocky. There's ice, i.e. water. But as far as you know there is no life on it.

And earth is teeming with life.

For a planet to provide shelter for life on a moon, it almost certainly does for itself also.

Because of the phenomenon of tidal locking and their often exotic composition, in looking at the many moon's of our solar system, a living moon is most certainly just as rare as a planet teeming with life like on Earth.

I have a theory I'm working on about lunar formation and the origin of the moon-earth-sun configuration (built on the assumption, based on all available observable data, that it's not a mere "fluke" or "coincidence"), with the moon as a type of Von Neumann Probe-LifeSeed Program. If true, then it would bode very well for the similar "seeding" of other Earth-like worlds, even within our own galaxy. The only "problem" with it, is that it would prove super-intelligent astro-engineering design on the one hand, and yet, well, the moon is something like 4.527 billion years old, so such "seeds" must have been present already during the formation of our solar system, and given the age of the galaxy and universe, one could hardly draw the assumption that such "tech" is of the alien variety, because it precedes galactic formation in anticipation of a 2nd, 3rd or even a 5th generation star (to get all the right ingredients together for the earth and life on earth), and thus this particular iteration of the universe itself.


Things that make me go hmmmm...