Are our lives largely predetermined or based on our free will and responsibility???

Are our lives largely predetermined and or directed by God??

or are they based on our free will and responsibility to decide and create the life we want???

I just sometimes wonder about this.

It's such a strange thing when you think about it. Because if we sit around wondering if life will change and hope and pray about it. Ya it might. But we can't be sure.

But on the other hand we know if we go out and plant seeds and work hard things will happen. But in that aspect what if we're not doing lets say God's will or something like that and even though we're working hard we can't seem to make things grow and or achieve what we're working on because maybe God's holding us back? And or because he has some other job, or business, or plans for us, so in essence we end up spinning our wheels.

Like I really wonder about this??? Because I feel a deep sense of responsibility. Like I should be able to accomplish most of my dreams without too much difficulty. But on the other hand it's like what if my efforts are cursed by the Gods. Then I'd just be spinning my wheels trying to move in a direction that's blocked??

Does that make sense?? What do you think?

Are our lives largely predetermined and or directed by God??

Mmm...

or are they based on our free will and responsibility to decide and create the life we want???

That one.



There are no "gods". That's superstitious hokum, get out of that mediaeval mindset.

Even if there are gods, why would they interfere and stop us prospering because you imagine they are displeased with what we are doing?

reply to post by spartacus699


Good topic.

We are all conditioned by biology, society and experice from birth and such conditioning provides us benefit and harm in equal measure. Free will donotes the ability to action not from conditioning but according to higher intent.

I refer you to one of the best examples of this difference: Frank Herbert's Gom Jabbar from Dune

The Gom Jabbar, also known as "the high handed enemy", was a meta-cyanide poisoned needle that sat upon a thimble, and could thus be attached to a person's fingertip.

The Gom Jabbar, also known as "the high handed enemy", was a meta-cyanide poisoned needle that sat upon a thimble, and could thus be attached to a person's fingertip.

Uses
...
The Gom Jabbar Test of Humanity Edit
"Let us say I suggest you may be human. Steady! I warn you not to try jerking away. I am old, but my hand can drive this needle into your neck before you can escape me."
―Reverend Mother Gaius Mohiam while testing Paul Atreides with a Gom Jabbar[src]

The Bene Gesserit also made extensive use of the Gom Jabbar, especially when they tested the humanity of certain individuals. In such circumstances, the device was placed against the subject's neck and acted as a deterrent for them backing out of the test. Such a method was used by Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam against Paul Atreides before his arrival on Arrakis.
The gom jabbar test would be to determine whether an individual's awareness was stronger than their instincts. If their awareness of the gom jabbar's presence was strong enough, it would override their instincts to withdraw from the test, which usually involved great physical pain.

Animal humans are (in my opinion) predestined to carry out their coditioning blindly without awareness but human humans are aware (of that conditioning) and are free to choose.

A video of the referenced sequence from the film (I think the TV one):



There is much philosophical and religious material on just this debate but science fiction can make it very clear for me which gives me a hook into the deeper material.

Also - Asimov's "Foundation" starts from the premise, that it is all predetermined and that with knowledge of enough variables the future can be predicted precisely and goes on to blow that idea out of the water.

CJCrawley

Are our lives largely predetermined and or directed by God??

Mmm...

or are they based on our free will and responsibility to decide and create the life we want???

That one.



There are no "gods". That's superstitious hokum, get out of that mediaeval mindset.

Even if there are gods, why would they interfere and stop us prospering because you imagine they are displeased with what we are doing?

There's lots of evidence of them choosing paths for people in history. Often not even Christians but just random people who turned to them in times of chrisis. I know that happened to me once too, so therefore I'm convince they are active in our lives, but I just wonder if it's like maybe a once in a lifetime event if you're lucky or if it's a daily thing but you just don't fully realize it.

reply to post by FyreByrd


That's weird. I'm not sure I follow.

spartacus699
reply to post by FyreByrd

 

That's weird. I'm not sure I follow.

Okay. Let me ask you a question:

What is the difference between you and your dog or cat or between you and any animal?

Any two people with identical genetics (impossible) and identical life experiences (also impossible) would turn out exactly the same, in my opinion.

Who you are, what you do, is 100% totally dictated by the way your genetics interact with your life experiences.

Yes, we have choice, but what do we base choice on? Experiences. We think about something, consider our past experiences, and past gained knowledge, and make a choice based on that.

There is no such thing as "you" in my opinion. Because "you" are nothing but genes+experiences. You are part of a whole, not a singular being with it's own identity, because your identity is shaped by your experiences and genetics. Your experiences involve other people, other animals, inanimate objects, all these things change who "you" are, which means all these things ARE what you ARE. You are your family, you are your friends, you are the planet, you are the galaxy, you are the universe.

In order for there to actually be a "you" you would need to have developed completely in a vacuum devoid of any external input or experiences. That's the only way to form a true self, and that true self will be wholly controlled by genetics, as you have no experiences to base anything on, only the preprogramming you already have. And those genetics are wholly based upon the genetics that came before you. So still no such thing as "you" or "me" in that ultimate sense.

Just my opinion...

Randomness is way underrated my friend......most of our lives are decided arbitrarily........you may have the illusion of free will, or the illusion that some higher force is guiding your life, but really buddy shes all just randomness..........

reply to post by spartacus699


My personal take on that, is that God does not control a persons day to day life. He does not send weather to cleanse the earth, the way he used to back in Noah's day, nor does he send plagues against us. I believe the only way that God takes a more active role in a human life, is when a human being offers themselves to God. At that point, a person in that position may be called upon from time to time, to serve God by works of charity, by protecting a person in danger, by specific acts which serve The Lord.

But in terms of the day to day, of people who swear no affiliation to Him, he does not interfere. Occasionally an emissary of God, might cross paths with one who has no relationship with Jesus, God, and interesting things can result, whether positive or negative.

Since the issuance of the commandments, God tends, as far as I am concerned, to let people get on with it, unless they ask to have a personal relationship with Christ. That's not to say he doesn't give a damn what happens, he has an eye on everything, at every time, all the time, but no active control over the course of a life, in the main.

I don't choose anything in my life...I try never to use my free will, and I bounce from one situation to the next without any notion of why, or what should be done at any given moment...you know...cos there is no free will...ppfffftt

Å99

FyreByrd

spartacus699
reply to post by FyreByrd

 

That's weird. I'm not sure I follow.

Okay. Let me ask you a question:

What is the difference between you and your dog or cat or between you and any animal?

Well Christians believe in the soul. That's the major difference. I'm not sure what evidence there is beyound faith. I've place my bet on a God, afterlife and a soul. If i'm wrong i have nothing to worry about, and if I'm right I have nothing to worry about either. It's a win win. Atheists are in a win - lose scenario in my opinion.

TrueBrit
reply to post by spartacus699

 

My personal take on that, is that God does not control a persons day to day life. He does not send weather to cleanse the earth, the way he used to back in Noah's day, nor does he send plagues against us. I believe the only way that God takes a more active role in a human life, is when a human being offers themselves to God. At that point, a person in that position may be called upon from time to time, to serve God by works of charity, by protecting a person in danger, by specific acts which serve The Lord.

But in terms of the day to day, of people who swear no affiliation to Him, he does not interfere. Occasionally an emissary of God, might cross paths with one who has no relationship with Jesus, God, and interesting things can result, whether positive or negative.

Since the issuance of the commandments, God tends, as far as I am concerned, to let people get on with it, unless they ask to have a personal relationship with Christ. That's not to say he doesn't give a damn what happens, he has an eye on everything, at every time, all the time, but no active control over the course of a life, in the main.

that's kinda what I'm thinking too. My intuition went off today though. I change direction on a task, it might have been a bit of devine provodence. Then I found a much better solution as a result. It was a very odd thing. Like I think sometimes there are these "signs". I've gotten A LOT of signs in my life. I don't think I'm gonna hear direct from God in an english voice. As I reasoned that that would actually kill my free will. As I wouldn't need any faith anymore. But I think the volume of signs I've gotten and intuitions are overwhelming enough for me to know that he's up there somewhere watching over things.