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A Heat Pump Is an Overunity Device?

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posted on Nov, 17 2013 @ 12:33 PM
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Cavitation is the key to overunity and heat pumps seem to fall into this category.


FUELLESS HEATER NO FUEL NO GAS NO WOOD NO GREEN HOUSE GASES

Im not sure if overunity is the correct way to look at this, its more like tapping the real energy sources, than creating more out of a vacuum.




posted on Nov, 17 2013 @ 01:19 PM
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Here is what Sterling Allan's website states for heat pumps:


Air-source heat pumps typically deliver 1 1/2 to three times more heating energy to a home than the electric energy they consume. This is possible because heat pumps move heat rather than convert it from a fuel (as combustion heating systems do). [1]

In a typical air-source heat pump, air flows over two refrigerant-filled heat exchangers (known as coils): one indoor and the other outdoor, both of which have metal fins to aid heat transfer. In the heating mode, liquid refrigerant within the outside coil extracts heat from the air and the refrigerant evaporates into a gas. The indoor coil releases heat from the refrigerant as it condenses back into a liquid. A valve near the compressor can change the direction of the refrigerant flow for cooling. [2]


The two footnotes link to the same article, "Optimized Heat Pumps 'Go With the Flow' to Boost Output'":


Released: 1/25/2008 8:00 AM EST
Source Newsroom: National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST)

Air-source heat pumps typically deliver 1 1/2 to three times more heating energy to a home than the electric energy they consume. This is possible because heat pumps move heat rather than convert it from a fuel (as combustion heating systems do). National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) researchers are working to improve the performance of these energy superstars even further by providing engineers with computer-based tools for optimizing heat exchanger designs. . . .



posted on Nov, 17 2013 @ 01:23 PM
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That sounds almost like how our electric ductless heatpump furnace works. I was talking with the guy and joked this is like overunity.....The electrician who came in to do the work got into a full hour on electric universe, the corrupt leaders, and it was mind boggling. He even brought up David Icke. My friend suggested they had known we moved into this small town and were letting us know they knew, that we were here now.

I consider electric ductless heat pumps to be overunity. And it has to fall into cavitation somehow, but now sure how the refridgeration technology relates.


SURE 2012: Cavitation Bubble with Heat and Mass Transfer Effects

This also talks about the bubbles, though not full into the cavitation but I assume that caviation is what is happening and the hydrogen or water bubble is being utilized in some cases.

However, the ductless refrigerator type heat pump, I don't think they create bubbles. Off to more research on this.
edit on 17-11-2013 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 17 2013 @ 01:37 PM
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I'm trying to read up on if a heat pump furnace is a kinetic type furnace using friction. Because that would be cavitation, or release of inner energy, basically electro magnetic flows and subatomic. It would also relate to the pistol shrimp.



posted on Nov, 17 2013 @ 01:56 PM
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Unity, look into water hammer for better answers and actual research.

There are some mysteries there, to be sure, but you will find significantly more data, math, and actual research instead of just the first part of the scientific method (philosophy, essentially). "Alternative science" is a false divide created by people who are driven by the societal construct of "maintain adversarial conflict at all costs."

Look for the info/data in all sources, regardless of your personal bias, and that is the true spirit of science. Perhaps even the true spirit of our.. spirit, neh?



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 04:39 AM
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Mary Rose
The two footnotes link to the same article, "Optimized Heat Pumps 'Go With the Flow' to Boost Output'":



Released: 1/25/2008 8:00 AM EST
Source Newsroom: National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST)

Air-source heat pumps typically deliver 1 1/2 to three times more heating energy to a home than the electric energy they consume.


Since NIST is about as mainstream as one can get, I'm wondering why there is disagreement here about heat pumps. Is not this article saying that they're overunity?



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 05:38 AM
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Mary Rose
Since NIST is about as mainstream as one can get, I'm wondering why there is disagreement here about heat pumps. Is not this article saying that they're overunity?
Mary, you're amazing.

The answer to that question was in the next line, that you cut off from the quote, but posted above. And Bob's your uncle. /thread.

Here is a bank account analogy. With a heat pump there are three account analogies:

Outdoor account.
Indoor account.
Heat pump account.

Let's say you're using the heat pump to heat your condo and it's colder outside than inside.

So there's $1000 in the outside account, and $2000 in the inside account. You want to move heat from the outside account to the inside account.

So, you put $500 in the heat pump account, and it charges you a $250 fee (inefficiency), but, for this fee it's able to move $500 from the outside account to the inside account.

So now, the outside account has only $500, and the inside account has $2500 (ie it got warmer inside).

So do the math. You put in $500, plus the $500 it moved, less the $250 ineffeciency fee, is $750 output.
$750 output compared to the $500 you put in is like a COP of 1.5 (750/500). Yes this is over 1, but only $250 of that $750 came from the input energy, so that's why it's underunity (250/500 is only 0.5) The other $500 came not from the heat pump account but from another account. To be overunity it must come from the heat pump account.

The nice thing is, the outside account tends to replenish because there's a vast (though not infinite) reservoir, so it recharges your balance back up to $1000 and you can keep moving the $500 over and over again.

So while it's not overunity, the amount of thermal energy you're extracting from the outside environment is typically too small to have much effect on the outside temperature, but this is not always the case. For example if you are exchanging heat underground, you have to take into account the effect on the thermal energy underground when you extract or add to it because it's finite:

en.wikipedia.org...

In dual function systems (both heating and cooling), the warm season provides ground thermal recharge for the cool season and the cool season provides ground thermal recharge for the warm season, though overtaxing the thermal reservoir must be considered even with dual function systems.

You can use heat pumps with these heat exchangers and if you overtax the thermal reservoir they won't work well, since the thermal reservoir is not infinite:
en.wikipedia.org...
One solution is to use larger area/more pipe underground, to make the effective thermal reservoir larger, but this adds cost. A good system using underground exchange typically performs quite a bit better than an air exchange system, provided it's been properly designed to address this thermal reservoir issue, etc.



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 05:54 AM
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Arbitrageur
The answer to that question was in the next line, that you cut off from the quote, but posted above.


Here's the next line:


This is possible because heat pumps move heat rather than convert it from a fuel (as combustion heating systems do). [1]


Why does the article refer to heat pumps as "energy superstars"?



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 05:59 AM
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reply to post by Mary Rose
 

They are energy superstars relative to something like a gas furnace, because they can move heat, instead of having to burn fossil fuels to create it, like a gas furnace.

In the right temperature zone they actually are energy superstars. In the wrong temperature zone, the aux heat cuts in too much, and then they aren't superstars at all, they are pretty pathetic (because there's just not enough heat outside to move inside, in colder climates).



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 06:08 AM
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Arbitrageur
In the wrong temperature zone, the aux heat cuts in too much, and then they aren't superstars at all, they are pretty pathetic (because there's just not enough heat outside to move inside, in colder climates).


The NIST article should have pointed that out. When they said "typically deliver" there was no caveat. That is misleading.



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 08:15 AM
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reply to post by Mary Rose
 


They're way more of an energy superstar if you are using ground loops and maybe a hot water desuperheater.



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 08:32 AM
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reply to post by Bedlam
 


Smile.

I had to look up "desuperheater" and here's what I got, from The Free Dictionary:


Warning! The following article is from The Great Soviet Encyclopedia (1979). It might be outdated or ideologically biased.

Desuperheater

a heat exchanger used to lower the temperature of superheated steam in a boiler unit or before a turbine. Changes in a boiler unit’s operation may lead to wide variations in the temperature of the superheated steam; a desuperheater then becomes necessary to prevent excessive superheating of the steam superheater or to maintain the steam turbine’s normal working conditions. A desuperheater is usually installed either in the intermediate header, which receives partially superheated steam, or at the point where the steam leaves the superheater. The steam is cooled by a water feed that removes heat from the steam. The water feed passes through the tubes of the heat exchanger in shell-and-tube-type desuperheaters, whereas in other desuperheaters it is directly injected. Condensate is frequently used in the latter case.

The Great Soviet Encyclopedia, 3rd Edition (1970-1979). © 2010 The Gale Group, Inc. All rights reserved.



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 08:54 AM
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reply to post by Mary Rose
 

You should look up superheat and desuperheaters with regard to refrigeration cycles to get the info as it directly relates to residential heat pump systems.
doucette industries

They improve efficiency by transferring heat that hasn't been transferred in the indoor (condensing) coil. (when you are running in heat mode, that is)

edit on 18-11-2013 by butcherguy because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 09:11 AM
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Mary Rose

Arbitrageur
In the wrong temperature zone, the aux heat cuts in too much, and then they aren't superstars at all, they are pretty pathetic (because there's just not enough heat outside to move inside, in colder climates).


The NIST article should have pointed that out. When they said "typically deliver" there was no caveat. That is misleading.
Hmmm, seems to me like "typically" is intended to be some sort of caveat. One reason that may be true is that people in extremely cold parts of Canada know better than to expect much out of an air exchange heat pump for winter heating, so those types of heat pumps are simply not installed in such locations. Therefore since the installations tend to be in the locations where they actually work, the NIST characterization of "typical" may be somewhat accurate, and it certainly implies that's not always what you'll get.



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 09:22 AM
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reply to post by Arbitrageur
 


I disagree.

I think you're making excuses for them.

I'm surprised at you, since you harp on "dictionary abuse."



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 09:28 AM
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reply to post by Mary Rose
 

Mary, if I say a typical man is 5'11" tall, are you going to say that's dictionary abuse because there are little people who are only half that height?



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 09:30 AM
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Speaking of underground and isolated systems.

We have some coolers that liquify Nitrogen, they are able to liquify around 15g/s, which is around 3000 watts of cooling, (AT 77Kelvin, take cold gas in, and throw liquid nitrogen out) OK so this is a heat pump system based on the Stirling cycle.


I can tell you right now, that it is about as un-overy unity an operation as you can possibly get. We put out about 40KW of heat in the cooling water, and that isn't still including what we use to cycle the motors.

Heat pumps are not over unity, not one bit

Also, to back up what was being argued above. Typical basically means... mean/average. So like, most of the time, x happens... just to make sure you get that... you should understand that there are always a bit of slop side to side of the 'typical' not to realize that is not to realize a great deal of things
edit on 18-11-2013 by ErosA433 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 09:45 AM
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reply to post by Arbitrageur
 


When NIST is posting news about heat pumps, it's incumbent upon them to anticipate how they could be easily misunderstood. To be as clear as they can be.

If typical means on average, it should include all climates, unless otherwise stated.
edit on 11/18/13 by Mary Rose because: Wording



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 10:04 AM
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butcherguy




It takes quite a bit of power to run a compressor.


It sure does. Shop keepers try to find any way possible to reduce power bills on refrigeration plants. Still does not change the fact you have to run that compressor.
edit on 18-11-2013 by fatpastyhead because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 18 2013 @ 12:42 PM
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Released: 1/25/2008 8:00 AM EST
Source Newsroom: National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST)

Air-source heat pumps typically deliver 1 1/2 to three times more heating energy to a home than the electric energy they consume.


The Wikipedia article "Thermodynamic system" says it needs additional citations for verification, but assuming for the time being that the article is accurate: For the particular scenario the NIST article is referring to, which thermodynamic system do the heat pumps in question fit in to?



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