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Aleister
reply to post by JadeStar
Mr. Oberg can't respond, he's busy chewing on his hat.
Very good post, just like a thread in itself, and very educational. thanks.
Aleister
reply to post by JadeStar
Mr. Oberg can't respond, he's busy chewing on his hat.
Very good post, just like a thread in itself, and very educational. thanks.
JimOberg
Soylent Green Is People
JadeStar
...One thing that should be noted is that our planet has been sending out its own signal that life exists here for about 3 billion years. This is due to the ratio of gasses that can only exist on a life bearing world. This ratio gives off a certain spectra which any sufficiently advanced aliens with a large coronagraph or a big set of space telescopes could have seen any time in the last 2-3 billion years...
Correct, but that may not make us interesting enough to come visit. I bet there are many, many planets in the Milky Way alone that show signs of life in an analysis of their atmospheres. If I were an alien species thousands of LY away, Earth still may not seem like that uniquely important of a place to visit. Perhaps interstellar space travel is possible, but still relatively difficult enough to make a 10,000 LY trip not something an alien species would do on a whim.
True in principle, but I think you have the age of a life-altered atmosphere a lot too high -- the Cambrian Explosion is generally thought to represent the time that free oxygen accumulated in the open air, and when iron deposits changed from ferric to ferrous compounds, as I recall the thesis.
JimOberg
Aleister
reply to post by JadeStar
Mr. Oberg can't respond, he's busy chewing on his hat.
Very good post, just like a thread in itself, and very educational. thanks.
Very good reply, indeed, should serve as an example for future mustering of evidence to make a point. Attagirl, with all sincerity.
The other argument contra the 'why haven't we seen them already?' query is that we have but not recognized them.
But the query's fundamental challenge remains. The question is not, why haven't we noticed and catalogued ALL the ET civilizations nearby in the galaxy?
The arguments made about galactic and atmospheric opacity in various [but never in ALL] EM wavelengths, as an excuse for NOT detecting any indication of non-human technology, seems like 'special pleading' to me since it requires that all ET civilizations tailor their EM broadcasts -- both deliberate and accidental -- specifically to conform to Earth-local 'forbidden bands' that happen to fall outside our viewable wavelengths.
In a galaxy hypothetically teeming with diverse and culturally unrelated technologies, both organic and cybernetic, this view requires universal identical [and coordinated?] avoidance strategies that 'just happen' to prevent leakage into the human sensory range. No exceptions. No out-liers. No wild heretical transmitters. EVERYBODY is hiding.
So why haven't we noticed ANY -- not ALL, but at least a few, or even one -- of them?
Personally I don't like the implications of this and have looked for other explanations, exactly as detailed in highly accurate, complete, and clear form by the responder. Kudos! It's the kind of response I've often hoped to provoke, but so infrequently see.
Wow. The ATS forum at its best. May your tribe increase.
First, the bad news: Given the model’s assumptions, organic molecules would last a mere hundreds of millions of years in the shallow subsurface of Mars. As the paper notes, “that will pose a serious challenge for organic detection by [Curiosity] since its primary focus is to look for 3.5 billion-year-old organic biomarkers while only drilling 5 cm into the surface rock.”
But with a 5-cm drill range, the rover isn’t exactly set up for an extensive mining operation. Pavlov has two recommendations. One option is to let geological forces do the mining and search for recent “microcraters” nearby that may have moved deeper rocks to the surface. These newly excavated rocks could still possess partially intact organics that could be rover-accessible. The second option amounts to martian four-wheeling. Using the rover’s wheels to dig into the soft sediment, it would be possible to reach a depth of 20 cm, expanding the window for potentially detectible molecules by a few dozen millions of years.
ManInAsia
The much heralded billion dollar Curiosity probe cannot even drill down below 5 Cms of the surface! That's right, it cannot even get a sample from just your fingertip below the surface .... .it could be green with worm poo and we'd never know...
ManInAsia
...I've no doubt advanced civlisations can easily figure out which planets bear life and which don't with far more advanced information processing techniques and sensitivity than we have. They could combine algorithims for many different factors and states (such as range of fluctuations and rate of fluctuations in the atmospheric chemistry) and chemistries to get very good estimates and if they have a good database of existing planets to work off they will be far more accurate.
ManInAsia
Just think about it Jim? Do you know only one real experiment has been done on Mars surface to detect microbes through testing for metabolisis , that was the VIking landers (gave ambiguous results due to perochloate in the soil), not the latest probes. The current probes on Mars STILL don't have the equipment to look for our sort of life directly, which leaves me very puzzled indeed.
The much heralded billion dollar Curiosity probe cannot even drill down below 5 Cms of the surface! That's right, it cannot even get a sample from just your fingertip below the surface .... .it could be green with worm poo and we'd never know...
www.wired.com...
First, the bad news: Given the model’s assumptions, organic molecules would last a mere hundreds of millions of years in the shallow subsurface of Mars. As the paper notes, “that will pose a serious challenge for organic detection by [Curiosity] since its primary focus is to look for 3.5 billion-year-old organic biomarkers while only drilling 5 cm into the surface rock.”
Why look for evidence of dead life from 3.5 billion years ago instead of living life now?
Why? It has to be the dumbest thing I've seen NASA do. You ask people questions, and they can't give you a straight answer.
My guess, it's because they are afraid of looking for living life again, not finding anything, and getting their budget decimated. They are afraid of failure and too timid.
JimOberg
Personally I don't like the implications of this and have looked for other explanations, exactly as detailed in highly accurate, complete, and clear form by the responder. Kudos! It's the kind of response I've often hoped to provoke, but so infrequently see.
Wow. The ATS forum at its best. May your tribe increase.
JimOberg
ManInAsia
The much heralded billion dollar Curiosity probe cannot even drill down below 5 Cms of the surface! That's right, it cannot even get a sample from just your fingertip below the surface .... .it could be green with worm poo and we'd never know...
Why are you under the impression the rover can't sample below the surface? Would 10-20 cm depth satisy your complaint? Why don't you think Curiosity can reach that depth?
ALL of them.
ManInAsia
As for comments earlier about the puzzling lack of equipment (I'm talking PCR, rapid tests for nucleic acids and protein etc), I believe the real reason the equipment was included is these missions are dominated by engineers and geologists, not biologists.
I'm from a biology background and I see no reason whatsoever that this type of equipment wasn't included in the current mission, to look for life now rather than signs of ancient life. It doesn't make much logical sense to me. It should be easier to look for signs of living life rather than fossil life, wouldn't people agree?
Anyway, there's water in the soil on Mars, lots of it (yes the Curiosity has been a great success..don't get me wrong..I just think a couple of direct biological detection instruments should have been included in the mission along with a drill that can reach farther into the soil). Microbes with anti-freeze abilities have already been identified on Earth that can live in their own micro environments. Due to pressure underground water should become liquid again. Radiation sources could also supply energy to microbes.
JadeStar
ManInAsia
As for comments earlier about the puzzling lack of equipment (I'm talking PCR, rapid tests for nucleic acids and protein etc), I believe the real reason the equipment was included is these missions are dominated by engineers and geologists, not biologists.
Au contraire. There are a team of vocal astrobiologists on every Mars mission opportunity. The problem is it costs more money to do this experiment properly.
Simply putting a PCR on Mars makes little sense.
Rule #1 about Mars, i like to call MINE - Mars Is Not Earth
So, imagine the shock and horror you'd have undergone as an astrobiologist who sent a PCR to Mars only to find out that the soil is full of perchlorates... :/
I'm from a biology background and I see no reason whatsoever that this type of equipment wasn't included in the current mission, to look for life now rather than signs of ancient life. It doesn't make much logical sense to me. It should be easier to look for signs of living life rather than fossil life, wouldn't people agree?
Actually its the other way around. Its easier to look for past life because most of the geologic instruments on the rover can do that, thus becoming dual-use for the astrobiology people.
Rule #2 about a Mars mission: If it ain't cheap, it ain't flyin'.
Anyway, there's water in the soil on Mars, lots of it (yes the Curiosity has been a great success..don't get me wrong..I just think a couple of direct biological detection instruments should have been included in the mission along with a drill that can reach farther into the soil). Microbes with anti-freeze abilities have already been identified on Earth that can live in their own micro environments. Due to pressure underground water should become liquid again. Radiation sources could also supply energy to microbes.
I totally agree. But how do you design an experiment to detect current life if you do not at first understand whether current like can exist? We didn't know about the rich water content of Mars soil until this mission. What if Mars had been bone dry? Wouldn't that life searching suite of gear been nothing more than ballast?
As a biologist how would YOU design a Mars life detection package??? Remember rule #1. It has to be able to detect life perhaps vastly different from our own. Perhaps not even based on nucleic acids. And then after you do that, adhere to Rule #2. It's got to be cost effective.
edit on 14-11-2013 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)
FlyersFan
coldkidc
The Drake equation ....
The Drake Equation - information here for those interested
As far as I'm concerned ... the Drake Equation proves with math the existence of MANY aliens.
ManInAsia
You are making it out to be more difficult than it really is. I don't tell you how to align SETI to best detect alien signals, you should not tell me what is a good or not technique to pick up signs of living life (as we know it).
PCR is an extremely sensitive technique and very robust and inexpensive.
It's likely if there is life on Mars that it is related to Earth's life (due to well documented exchange of material and fairly similar geology and large amounts of water). I'm very well aware that life can go in different forms, but as a start, this is really low hanging fruit.
So you get samples of material from different depths, use a pure sample, also could boil/acid treat for variety (to ensure cell walls broken just in case), then dilute in log range the sample in water (the idea of diluting and varying steps is to reach more optimum conditions for removing inhibiting chemicals from the PCR process). You should pick up DNA or RNA if it is there in one of these samples. There are actually very simple DNA stains that will do the trick too (they stick in between the DNA strands and fluoresce under UV). It's really not that hard or expensive and the equipment is not hard to modify. There is desktop size equipment to do PCR right down to microfluidic devices about the size of a business card.
Yes I agree Curiosity helps to lay the groundwork for life detecting missions and I understand some budget limitations, no I do not believe they had to wait that long to do these simple experiments.
I'm not even talking about metabolic detection experiments which have also not been included except for some gas sampling.
Looking for evidence of past life is also not easy (just think about how difficult it can be on Earth)
nor is it a good way to tell if there is present life or not. It all seems like taking the long route for not very good reasons.
combatmaster
FlyersFan
coldkidc
The Drake equation ....
The Drake Equation - information here for those interested
As far as I'm concerned ... the Drake Equation proves with math the existence of MANY aliens.
Untrue good sir. You could be wrong...
Several of the parameters of the drake equation are not known at this time, and are very hard to estimate.
So in essence it is largely based on conjecture.
I still believe in aliens, but the drake equation doesnt do it for me!