When Did Matter Make Its First "Choice?"

akushla99
If you're asking for 'when did it begin to matter in our neck of the woods'...quasi-metaphysical discussion...

Thats about as far from what I am asking as it can get!

I can see where you are coming from on it though.

'Science' won't be able to tell you this...

I am not looking for definitive answers, I am looking for exploration and discussion. Does that make sense?

reply to post by SuicideBankers


Thats getting closer to the OP at least.

So, at what point did these variances result in a system which could choose from left/right/up/down/etc instead of being subject solely to the restraints of what we know as physics? And what processes lead up to this event?

Serdgiam
I am not looking for definitive answers, I am looking for exploration and discussion. Does that make sense?

You want to look for answers but not find the true answer.
A truly dedicated seeker.

Serdgiam
Regardless of whether or not we are eternal, or such great philosophical queries, there was a single moment where something was able to move left instead of right in the physical realm. Unless everything we know about the formation of the world around us is false, which is also a possibility.

What if the world(s) were actually just an Everett-wheeler
matrix where all the choices had already been made, so
that new universes were not created with new choices,
but all of them already existed at a minimal energy level
for all of time. Being at a minimal energy level, and being
for all of time, would make all other choices moot; thus
invalidating any concerns about Occam's razor.

Then on an absolute scale at least,there would be no motion to ask about.

KPB

Serdgiam

akushla99
If you're asking for 'when did it begin to matter in our neck of the woods'...quasi-metaphysical discussion...

Thats about as far from what I am asking as it can get!

I can see where you are coming from on it though.

'Science' won't be able to tell you this...

I am not looking for definitive answers, I am looking for exploration and discussion. Does that make sense?

Yep...that makes sense...good luck...

Å99

Serdgiam
So, at what point did these variances result in a system which could choose from left/right/up/down/etc instead of being subject solely to the restraints of what we know as physics? And what processes lead up to this event?

Choice and a chooser is an illusion that causes the suffering that is the duality of man.

All is just happening unconditionally.

reply to post by Itisnowagain


I want to see and understand how others see and understand. I already have my own answers, ever-growing and ever-moving.

"True seeker" does not apply.



I am bringing up a subject which, in my experience, is dualistic whenever people talk of it. It either "always has been" or "never has been," or same variance between that crest and trough. Though, I have yet to see it discussed specifically. It is always something that is somehow answered by discussing some grand universal truth, in a myriad of ways.

I can see now that because of that, most are not able to even understand precisely what the OP was all about. Which is quite intriguing in and of itself.

The topic could quite simply be responded to much like me asking "when did you start eating dinner last night and what made you eat?" Its not really any "deeper" than that. But, the maze of the mind is quite the labyrinth. Mine has cookies at least.

Serdgiam
reply to post by SuicideBankers

 

Thats getting closer to the OP at least.

So, at what point did these variances result in a system which could choose from left/right/up/down/etc instead of being subject solely to the restraints of what we know as physics? And what processes lead up to this event?

Nature cannot be subjugated in my opinion. You speak of limitations that may apply to certain creatures but not to all. Even here on earth we have sea creatures that can choose to go in any direction. Not just left or right. Not just up or down but truly in any direction desired. Nature is limitless and we are just a small, small speck in her far larger and grander scheme.

reply to post by Serdgiam


Individualization. When all you know and all you are is everything that exists, what is new to you? Not knowing everything. Not being everything. And at that point, the possibilities are literally endless. So you would want to experience them all. You would want to know everything about what it is to NOT BE YOU.

Serdgiam

I am bringing up a subject which, in my experience, is dualistic whenever people talk of it. It either "always has been" or "never has been," or same variance between that crest and trough.

It is not dualistic when it is seen that 'always has been' and 'never has been' are happening as one - is one. This both is and isn't at the same time - always present, eternal.

There is what is not appearing (non existence) and there is what is appearing (apparent existence). What is not appearing never changes - that which is appearing is constantly changing.

The bit that is longed for is right here but it is non existence so it is not very appealing to that which is believing it has to exist. If things matter (solidify) it is because one has not realized the non matter.

SuicideBankers
Nature cannot be subjugated in my opinion.

Agreed.

Even here on earth we have sea creatures that can choose to go in any direction. Not just left or right. Not just up or down but truly in any direction desired.

Correct! Now, when was the first time this happened, and what led up to it?

SuicideBankers
Even here on earth we have sea creatures that can choose to go in any direction. Not just left or right. Not just up or down but truly in any direction desired. Nature is limitless and we are just a small, small speck in her far larger and grander scheme.

The creature does not choose.

“The field is the sole governing agency of the particle.”
Albert Einstein.

reply to post by Itisnowagain


Semantics aside, there was a moment where things in this respect changed (as all things do).

You can call it whatever you like, fit it into whatever philosophical ideology you desire, but its all missing the point in favor of preaching.

In our current understanding, there was essentially a point at which "life as we know it" changed to be slightly different than it was. Where, instead of metaphorically remaining static and moved by the ocean's currents, the fish swam in the other direction. Whether or not this is truly "free will," or some other philosophical bind, is not relevant.

I do not think it started with fish (I feel the need to clarify that), but something more "basic."

When did this happen, in your perspective, and what were the processes that led to it?

reply to post by Serdgiam


What makes you think anyone knows the answer? If anyone can stand up and say, "I have the answer, it is a fact, and the means to prove it without a doubt", I will be flabbergasted. But it won't happen.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


As I said, I am not looking for "answers," I am looking for exploration and discussion. Does that make sense?

Serdgiam

SuicideBankers
Nature cannot be subjugated in my opinion.

Agreed.

Even here on earth we have sea creatures that can choose to go in any direction. Not just left or right. Not just up or down but truly in any direction desired.

Correct! Now, when was the first time this happened, and what led up to it?

Maybe the more important question is ... is it possible for humanity to achieve this sate and when will it happen.

Serdgiam
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

I want to see and understand how others see and understand. I already have my own answers, ever-growing and ever-moving.

"True seeker" does not apply.

 

I am bringing up a subject which, in my experience, is dualistic whenever people talk of it. It either "always has been" or "never has been," or same variance between that crest and trough. Though, I have yet to see it discussed specifically. It is always something that is somehow answered by discussing some grand universal truth, in a myriad of ways.

I can see now that because of that, most are not able to even understand precisely what the OP was all about. Which is quite intriguing in and of itself.

The topic could quite simply be responded to much like me asking "when did you start eating dinner last night and what made you eat?" Its not really any "deeper" than that. But, the maze of the mind is quite the labyrinth. Mine has cookies at least.

You got 2 posters giving you an explanation that is specific...but, you replied with the 'that's not where I want to go'...

Specifically...if there is no mind, it doesn't matter...

That may seem a wishy-washy answer, but specifically addresses your question (without the mumbo-jumbo)...makes it a binary, one or the other, either/or, yes/no, on/off answer.

The mind is so labyrinthine that even when new stimulus (albeit of a nature unwanted, unneeded, uncalled for) will squirrel and spark its own catherine wheels (those ready to be lit)...

At base, you're asking a metaphysical question - if you wanted a scientific answer, you are right, you should have put it in the science section...

Å99

reply to post by SuicideBankers


Very nice.

In that context, I do feel that some do and some do not. Most likely a balancing act, in that respect.

But, as the cosmos was forming and material from stars was collecting into planets that would harbor "life," at what point did it happen for the first time?

I lean in the direction that it was at a fundamental and basic bacterial level, most likely in the pursuit of energy/food. However, the base processes themselves that allowed such a thing may be connected outside of space and time.

Serdgiam
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

Semantics aside, there was a moment where things in this respect changed (as all things do).

You can call it whatever you like, fit it into whatever philosophical ideology you desire, but its all missing the point in favor of preaching.

In our current understanding, there was essentially a point at which "life as we know it" changed to be slightly different than it was. Where, instead of metaphorically remaining static and moved by the ocean's currents, the fish swam in the other direction. Whether or not this is truly "free will," or some other philosophical bind, is not relevant.

I do not think it started with fish (I feel the need to clarify that), but something more "basic."

When did this happen, in your perspective, and what were the processes that led to it?

edit on 2-11-2013 by Serdgiam because: (no reason given)

All things move toward that which attracts them. Even a one celled creature will move toward food and away from toxins. There is no real choice.

It happens naturally where you are.
There is only a mattering because there is a comparing of before and after - seeking pleasure in time and trying to avoiding imagined discomfort in the future - all happens within presence as presence.

Can anything actually happen any other time but presently?