Police attack nurse because she called her supervisor.

defcon5
reply to post by roadgravel

 

This could have happened years ago, this is not new law.
Obstruction is an old law, warrants go back to the writing of the Constitution.

You don't get it. it's not whether she did or did not break a law or should or should not be arrested. It's about how the police are physically treating people. There is not need to be so violent. Maybe it's ex soldiers becoming cops or trainers or just the governments as a whole, but police have become more violent.

Metaphysique
reply to post by thisguyrighthere

 

there's really no need to go to an effort to debunk this LEO twaddle/authoritarian claptrap/sheeple braying


simple logic says otherwise:
if the suspect had had [and hopefully did] an infectious disease
and the hospital allowed the police to do whatever they pleased
the hospital would be liable and the police themselves would be suing.

however, since the brutes violently forced their way in; the hospital is in the clear
in addition, the hospital must make sure the police don't go "arresting"/manhandling the wrong person
as they do 99.98% of the time

Precisely. Apparently simple logic isn't so "simple" for some people to wrap their little brains around.

"Nuh uh! Cops have teh Mega Authoritay and don't have to ask for permissions!"


Sure, they can just drag someone infectious to jail. Or someone who will die without medical treatment. They can just drag someone on life support down to the station on a stretcher. Either drag the hospital's equipment right along with them (theft) or just rip out those wires and let the scumbag criminal die....no need to even check with a professional, who could clear the suspect (medically) for transport.. amirite?



The police apologists are almost exceeding their own ridiculous inability to employ simple logic on this one.

reply to post by iwilliam


You sound very self righteous! Since when does someone accused of sexual assault trump the rights of the victim!!

As a nurse i can say the suspect was not being managed properly in the hospital!!!! It is a responsibility we have to assure patient safety at all times! The charge nurse should have been on the phone with the head of the hospital
explaining we cannot treat this patient here he is putting others at risk!!!!

The patient should have been transferred to a facility and given medication to help him calm down and at no time should this patient have been left alone UNSUPERVISED!!!! At the very least this person needed one on one supervision!!

For the record i would not want a nurse like that taking care of me!!! She proved herself very incompetent that the police had to be called in the first place!!!! Yes, it was her responsibility and she failed to do it!!!

My thought is, I wonder who called the police to begin with??

Pax

Unity_99
If it could, then the staff would still follow their protocol or they'd be open to libabiltiy, so they did wrong to the nurse who was only calling the supervisor, which was the protocol.

When a judge issues a warrant that person is to be taken into custody by the police. Custody means that the police now have possession of that person and all liability for that person. You cannot charge the hospital staff with anything because the liability falls on the judge and the police.

Hospital “policy and procedures” do not trump that, as I jokingly stated above, I have written “policy and procedure” manuals for the lab that I work for, they don't trump state, federal, or constitutional law. If they did, everyone who had ever committed a crime would go running for the nearest hospital/mental institution for “sanctuary”.

Unity_99
If they have some loop way to get it both ways, with staff trained one way, then that "law" needs its ass handed back to it, because hopsitals train staff to do what she did.

I guarantee you the hospital does not train staff to do what she did, you always cooperate with the police. Its very common for patients to call 911 from their hospital rooms, and as long as you cooperate with them when they get there, there is never a problem. The police do not have to follow the hospitals rules, its the other way around.

For whatever reason, this woman took it on herself to interfere where it was not her legal right to do so.

Unity_99
There are quite a few posts given by those who worked in these types of situations, and those posts showed that she did the right thing.

Eh, no actually you need to read again.
The only person I saw supporting this was BFT, and the laws in his state are a bit different in regards to mental institutions.

defcon5

juspassinthru
The nurse should turn over *anyone* to the blue-suits. Even those with bubonic plague, viral hemorrhagic fevers or other conditions. After all, the cops know best, eh?

Police do have common sense...
They are not going to move someone that is in contagious disease isolation. If they got there and saw that was the case, they would have been calling their supervisor for instructions.

Oh, if they got there and "saw" that the person was infectious?

Give me a break. You are aware that you can not "see" most infectious agents, right?

What, are cops medical professionals now?


No, they're not. They can not tell if it is safe to move a given patient. Can't tell whether it's safe for the wellbeing of that patient, or even for the lives of others. That is the call of a medical professional. Like that nurse's supervisor.

I would think that this (aside from possibly procedure) is the reason the woman wanted to check. The cops could have just been patient, and reasonable, and let her quickly make a phone call. They weren't too worried about this sick patient making a get away, either, if they were willing to spend so much time busting up a harmless nurse for doing her job, and actually trying to keep some people safe.

The but the cops can't just walk in and "see" that the situation needs to be handled in a certain way, medically, as you suggest. The dumb cops need help from more intelligent folks for that. But they're too adrenaline addicted and ego driven to take even a few seconds to think of something like that.

roadgravel

defcon5
reply to post by roadgravel

 

This could have happened years ago, this is not new law.
Obstruction is an old law, warrants go back to the writing of the Constitution.

You don't get it. it's not whether she did or did not break a law or should or should not be arrested. It's about how the police are physically treating people. There is not need to be so violent. Maybe it's ex soldiers becoming cops or trainers or just the governments as a whole, but police have become more violent.

What a second..... You're now saying whether she broke the law or not is irrelevant? Excuse me? Then what is there to debate at all here? I'm missing anything to even discuss if the basic issue of whether she was, in fact, subject to arrest for criminal action is not relevant??

Yes, they took her down physically. She had, according to reports, taken physical action already on her own. This included but by NO means was limited to locking a door to obstruct their access. That's a petty thing when we're looking hard for ways to make it the fault of Police for anything and everything which happened.

It's absolutely NO small thing when they are there, with a legally signed and issued warrant, and someone is playing stupid little games on their own power trip to physically obstruct. They will, physically, be taken into custody and removed from BEING an obstruction. Period. As happened here.

....I'll even bet the VICTIM of the person they were there to arrest was rather glad a nurse on a power trip didn't obstruct justice from being carried for the criminal who victimized them.

We do recall there was another victim here somewhere...the cops were there in the name of...to see justice started, right?

iwilliam

You sound like a cop. Or one of those ridiculous police apologists. (Some people will defend cops no matter what. The cop could be caught, red-handed on video stomping in the skull of an infant and these people would say "Well, we couldn't see what happened before this.... maybe that baby made the cop fear for his life. Babies really should not resist arrest like that. You saw it crying and holding up his hands-- that's clearly resisting. The baby was asking for it.)
*cue heavy eye roll*

LOL.... way to go with hyperbole. That will get you points here. Obviously you haven't seen the thread I made where I decry the way the Feds did a search warrant. Nevermind.

You seem to think like the cops do. Namely that the badge gives them the authority to go anywhere, or do anything they want. It does not. Allow me to break this down for you very simply:


Medical treatment takes precedence over interrogation, arrest, and criminal prosecution. Always.


This suspect was not just a suspect, but also a patient at a hospital. Theoretically that means they are unwell. Possibly unwell enough for interrogation, arrest, or transport. I have seen many times, cases where a suspect was injured at the scene, where the cops showed up, and instead of being arrested and taken to jail, was escorted to the hospital.

I'll leave this one for Defcon....... they will do a better job splaining to you.

...
As I was saying, these cops are not doctors. They can not determine the condition of the patient. They can't just go in and rip someone off life support and drag them on a stretcher down to the station. Is this person in critical condition? Are they infectious? Do they need regular medications? Do they need to be regularly checked by medical personnel? You don't know this, and the cops didn't either. You know who should know this? The supervisor.

The patient they arrested was NONE of the above. Nice try. AGAIN Hospital Policy and Procedures DO NOT TRUMP valid Police Warrants. I know you think that, it's NOT the case.

So this poor woman was probably just following protocol, and looking out for the well being of their patient. Even if the suspect is guilty of what they're accused of, they still have an equal right to medical attention. And the police have no right to interfere with necessary medical treatment.

Once a suspect is stabilized ie not dying, they can be incarcerated. Again, this wasn't the case, keep trying though.

I hope they're sued penniless.

That's for the courts to decide.

And I hope they one day need to rely on this nurse to treat them when they're critically ill or injured.

I don't think they will have to worry about that. With a felony, she will probably lose her nursing credentials, someone else will have to chime in on that.

Hopefully this rant has made you feel better. Have a great day.

iwilliam
Oh, if they got there and "saw" that the person was infectious?
Give me a break. You are aware that you can not "see" most infectious agents, right?

Someone in the hospital that is infectious is going to be in isolation.
Its pretty hard to miss an isolation room since you have to go through a positive pressure barrier to get to them.

iwilliam
What, are cops medical professionals now?

Apparently more then some posters here.
You a medical professional?
I am...

iwilliam
No, they're not. They can not tell if it is safe to move a given patient. Can't tell whether it's safe for the well being of that patient, or even for the lives of others.

You're trying to play games with factious scenarios that do not apply to this case. If the patient was unstable, they would post an officer until the patient was stabilized, then they would transfer them to a DOC approved facility.

In this case the patient was stable, ambulatory, and was harassing other patients. There was no reason why they could not arrest him and take him into custody.

iwilliam
That is the call of a medical professional. Like that nurse's supervisor.

No, its the call of a judge.

iwilliam
I would think that this (aside from possibly procedure) is the reason the woman wanted to check. The cops could have just been patient, and reasonable, and let her quickly make a phone call.

She made it quite clear that for whatever reason she didn't want him removed into police custody. That was not her place, and it was not her call. Her only right here was to allow them access, and call the supervisor while they were in the room arresting him. Its not like the supervisor could tell the police anything else otherwise.

Do you think that if the supervisor had told the police they could not enter that they police would have just left? The supervisor has no more right to overturn a judges warrant then the nurse did.

iwilliam

Precisely. Apparently simple logic isn't so "simple" for some people to wrap their little brains around.

Hey there, don't make fun of my little head. I try hard with what I have!

Sure, they can just drag someone infectious to jail. Or someone who will die without medical treatment. They can just drag someone on life support down to the station on a stretcher.

Really??? Please show me cases where the Police were in their rights to do THAT. If there is a known medical condition that would IMMEDIATELY threaten the life of someone, they must take proper actions.

The police apologists are almost exceeding their own ridiculous inability to employ simple logic on this one.

Again, stop making fun of my small head. It's not NICE!

reply to post by defcon5


The suspect is not the patient I am referring to. I am referring to every other patient on that unit. The individual isn't going to get away....they are in a locked psychiatric unit.

The policy at my prior hospital would be that the officers would check in with the front office. The front office would contact the unit and have the patient brought over. The nurse was never involved, other than assigning the orderly's that would deliver the patient to the front office. This prevents a commotion that is devastating to the treatment of mental illness.

Like I said...unless we have information otherwise, it looks like she picked up the phone to call someone. While she was doing that, they rushed in on her. Perhaps she is insane enough to think that they can't manage to bypass a locked half door. So it just doesn't make sense that she retreated behind the nurses station to avoid the officers. It looks like she was trying to bring in support. Or trying to figure out where the patient was.

I mean, if "they", meaning various people at the hospital, knew the cops were coming back, why was she the only one there to recieve them? Where are the other staff? Where is the rest of the video?

media.cmgdigital.com... here is the pdf of the incident report for any one interested in it i had not seen it posted yet

iwilliam

Oh, if they got there and "saw" that the person was infectious?
Give me a break. You are aware that you can not "see" most infectious agents, right?
What, are cops medical professionals now?

You do know iwilliam, that know infectious patients (of which this person was NOT) have multiple ways of being identified as such by anyone walking by their room. Try to walk into a full blow Mersa or Creutzfeldt–Jakob case in a hospital and tell me you didn't notice???

Keep trying........

reply to post by defcon5

Do you think that if the supervisor had told the police they could not enter that they police would have just left? The supervisor has no more right to overturn a judges warrant then the nurse did.

While this is a very serious topic and thread, I couldn't help but laugh at this. The mental image..just couldn't resist.

I can imagine a pair of cops going to the outer door of a unit and explaining they have a warrant and need to arrest someone on major charges. Then a supervisor telling them "Sorry, we can't help you, you'll have to come back with more than that!", to naturally see the cops shrug with good humor and turn to leave. Happy to know they'd at least made the effort, like a process server who hates their job.


Indeed.. That is about what the nurse here seemed to be expecting. They'd just shrug and leave or something. Well, they DID leave. We have to admit that. She just hadn't expected to be taken along when they did.

pavil
reply to post by gladtobehere

 

You can't stop an LEO from trying to apprehend someone, it doesn't work that way.

Once the guy is under medical care, it most certainly does. The cops cannot legally remove someone from a hospital without a medical release. They can apprehend the guy but have to wait there with him.

I have seen hospital personnel somehow think they are above Police jurisdiction in situations like this literally over a dozen times. I kid you not. The Hospitals think that they have to give permission for LEO to do things, they don't.

A LEO cannot compel medical care. They can't change how care is given. They can't impede medical care. They can't compel testing. They can't claim obstruction if medical personnel don't do things their way, because they are not licensed medical personnel. If they try it, they end up charged with practicing medicine. A cop can't order a doctor or nurse to do or not to do something medical in nature.

For example, if a cop's injured, and his buddies are at bedside "Give him pain medicine or I'll arrest you" will be met with a laugh, just before buddy is removed by force. Cop or no. Most hospitals have little handouts that tell cops what they can and cannot do. And it's not "have at it, we are your willing slaves", it's more like "You get to make sure the patient prisoner is secure. You don't get to say if the guy gets meds, or an IV, or is taken to CT, or has an X-ray, or has to piss. And if you try, we first call your supervisor, if that doesn't resolve the issue, we call the staties and you are escorted off by force"

It's sort of like firefighters at a fire. The cops get to direct traffic. They don't get to dictate how the fire is fought. At a hospital, the docs and nurses have control over medical issues. Not cops. You want to come to a hospital and arrest a patient, fine. You want to take them without a medical release, you will be stopped by the State Police or SO.

RalagaNarHallas
media.cmgdigital.com... here is the pdf of the incident report for any one interested in it i had not seen it posted yet

Great. So now we know this man was in treatment at a mental hospital. HIPPA isn't relevant i guess.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

What a second..... You're now saying whether she broke the law or not is irrelevant?

Either way she should not be physically abused. It appears that some posters here feel that a person who commits a crime can be treated to physical abuse at ant level and it is all OK.

Is being issued a packing ticket a reason to be tazered and clubbed since it is a broken law and is being enforced by police. How about thrown to the ground and kicked, Broken law.

I kept thinking people will figure it out one day but lately I think not so.

bigfatfurrytexan

The suspect is not the patient I am referring to. I am referring to every other patient on that unit. The individual isn't going to get away....they are in a locked psychiatric unit.

It couldn't have been that...... read the article again, when the groping occurred it was when both the man and the women were outside on an unsupervised smoke break. That wouldn't happen in a locked psychiatric unit, would it?

You are making suppositions here not supported by the information we have.

defcon5

Starwise
***But what happened to common courtesy. The major concern to the nursing board establishment is the possibility of the patient being in isolation for airborne or other highly contagious illnesses such as MRSA, Influenza, C-Difficile, and Tuberculosis.

This happened at 2:00 Am, the Police had been there dealing with this since 8:00Pm, and the nurses were aware of it. This patient was NOT contagious, he was a mental health patient.

You can not fairly assume that because they were in a psych ward, that they did not also have a medical issue as well, including potentially something contagious.

If you have the plague, and active psychotic delusion, they don't keep you in intensive care, they keep you in the psych ward, generally speaking.

And people in the psych ward can also have regular, chronic medical issues, or other disabilities that need medical attention.


Further, as has been said, this was a matter of common courtesy and minor patience. They could have been courteous, and patient, and just let her check in with her supervisor real quick. They decided to act like thugs, instead. A psych ward is already a fairly controlled environment. The patient could not escape. If there was a known accusation, they probably would not have been allowed enough freedom of movement to harm other patients, either. The cops had time. They chose to act like egotistical thugs.

And to those of you saying that they should have been allowed in immediately, because what about the safety of the other patient (the accuser)...?...

The fact that this was a psych ward, quite seriously ups the chances that this was a false report. That's not to say it shouldn't be treated seriously. Of course it should. However... IDK how many of you have ever had to deal with paranoid schizophrenics, or people experiencing severe delusion-- but it can be unsettling for everyone involved. I've had paranoid schizos look me dead in the eye (with a "man, I'm going to tear you apart" type expression) accusing me of saying something, just that moment, which I didn't even say. As in, I was literally silent. But they were convinced I was saying bad things.

I had one, who believed I was actually another person they knew, in disguise, there to "test them."


It can get pretty crazy. That's why it's a locked psych ward.


And yes, bringing weapons on to a psych ward could get dangerous, depending on how many patients were on the floor, their conditions, etc, versus how many cops.



But again, all of this would have been irrelevant if the police were capable of patience and courtesy like a normal, decent human being, instead of walking around like some demi-god, just waiting to lash out over perceived disrespect by mere mortals.

defcon5

Go read the police report and look at the temper tantrum that she threw when they were taking her to the car.

And what is that supposed to mean / prove?


I might have been flipping out, too. They roughed her up, tazed her, and arrested her for trying to do her job the way she saw fit.


Look at the cops-- they roughed her up, tazed her, and arrested her just because she wanted them to wait a few minutes for her to make a phone call. I'd say they were the ones who over-reacted. If her over-reaction was proportionate to theirs, her head would have spontaneously turned into a block of C-4, detonating and killing everyone. lol

I'd say a "I can't believe this crap, y'all are getting sued" type of rant on the way to the cruiser would be a pretty fair reaction.

reply to post by roadgravel


RalagaNarHallas posted the xerox'ed incident report with detail of exactly, in each step, what happened here. That included the nurse laughing at them, declaring she didn't believe they'd arrest her anyway, and then physically fighting when they did move, at first without force, to take her into custody.

Whatever chance she had of that ending without her getting hurt? Ended the moment she first forcefully pulled away and resisted the legal authority to arrest her. She clearly stated, according to the incident report, that what they were doing in arresting the sex offender (alleged) was an 'injustice' and 'she wouldn't allow it'.

Well, as others have noted. A nurse has absolutely no authority, power or even OPINION worth hearing when it's a duly signed warrant issued by a court. It's not even up to the cops at that stage. They have their orders, literally, in hand ..and short of violating the law to execute it? They are legally bound to see the warrant serviced.

I hadn't read the raw report until it was posted above. Now that I have? I don't see any doubt as to the justification of what was done here. They could, realistically, have been quite a bit worse. They didn't have to explain, 3 times for instance, how it was a warrant. What that meant and what obstructing it meant ...just to be laughed at.

This nurse made 100% of her own problems and in the hunt for trouble, she found it by the car load.