You are all gonna live like in socialist scandinavia

This is very interesting thread, thank you OP, for starting discussion on the matter.

I would agree with people, in a way US is a bit immature compared to many European nations. After all, US is significantly younger, the house I currently live at is founded before Columbus discovered America in 1492...

The wars and tough times have taught most European nations a lot and I would not bring up history up a lot, as the majority of the so-called immature decisions have significantly started to show up in recent decades. Where I personally see the problem in US is the inability of drawing the lines between the individualism/collectivism & socialism/capitalism. A lot of it, of course, is due to media (the Cold War brainwashing against socialism & since the 1980s extreme advertising and trickle-down economy),although a large part of it also lies in the culture.

Culturally US is still very young compared to European nations - I often see many Americans as rebelling teenagers fighting from their individual narrow perspective without seeing the whole picture well, how their actions affect the whole picture in the long run. When looking in the mirror, they see their strengths and their superficial flaws while ignoring the real flaws.

At some point people have to understand the real things that matter in life, and having the biggest house, most cars, most wealth, being famous does not play much role in the long run. Working yourself to death in order to achieve the materialistic dream is not the most important thing in the long run, and round here for example, that is the main characteristic of youth, just as the very individualistic approach. At some point, people just realise that these are not worth it - family, taking pleasure in the small moments that matter, having hobbies, enjoying life, food etc etc are more important than simply working all the time and getting the stuff ( while never really having the time to enjoy life and the things you buy) are simply superficial goals.

US was and always will be the world´s superpower simply due to its size and being among the advanced nations, yet the exceptionalism, at least currently, is a self-illusion. Most other advanced economies are currently doing much better economically, in education, healthcare, nearly whatever statistics we take. US was the greatest country in the 1950-60s (of course largely due to being less touched by the WWs, while European nations were rebuilding their systems, their cities, US could simply flourish on their own without no real competition. Although due to better political decisions largely based on culture, most European nations have managed to pass US life-standards by now and I believe the decline will continue, unless some drastic changes are made, especially in education, as at the end educated people drive the nation forward, especially in the coming decades due to the amount of manual labor and soon also the service sector being automated.

Neither full individualism nor full collectivism work well, just as strong capitalism vs strong socialism. There have to be lines and that is where most European nations have done far better than US, learning from the mistakes from the past and present, acknowledging that balance is the key and taking the best from both is the way to go, which creates the strongest opportunities for the nation. Despite having far more experience with far left-wing than US, as many countries have lived through it first-hand or watched it from neighboring areas and yet they have decided to mix certain elements in, as these serve the nation as a whole better, while only a small group of individuals might not like it. Strong social safety net, just as strong public education are extremely important for the nation as a whole, as these create a strong "lower class" and even stronger middle class, while the richer ones suffer a bit, but are still significantly wealthier than the middle class, even with the high taxes. A Norwegian once told me a local saying about the current system: " In Norway it is harder to be poor than being rich" and that is something I wish every country would strive for.

Of course politics also plays large role in the current situation, as there is no left-wing party in US, yes none. While Republicans are definitely right-wingers, Democrats tend to lie in the centre-right, looking at their decisions. Even Obamacare is the right-wing version of universal healthcare. The decisions by both parties in last decades have largely been in favour of corporations, rather than people whether it comes to taxes, standards or other decisions which affect the profits of corporations.


I know for many it might sound as a anti-US post, although it is not meant to be like it. I have nothing against US, but this is my personal opinion how and why things have become as they are. This is just my perspective of the matter, although I think many Americans should focus on the real issues, instead of living in the illusion of America being the greatest, while looking at the statistics, the things are clearly in decline there and unless is something is done in the near future, it might be too late to change things. I hope things would get better soon, although I am afraid in order for that to happen, something major has to happen and it would take decades to reach even the shadow of what it was like in 50s and 60s



PS. I do not deny constitution is an important document, although saying it is the most important moment in human history is serious overstating. It was very important moment from American perspective, but when taking a look at the human history as a whole, it is important, but not worth singling it out, as many other events have been just as if not more important.

PS2. US is a popular destination, although it has lots to do with media also. Hollywood paints a very nice picture of US, while in reality the things are different. I know many who have went there, although most of them are coming back sooner or later, as at least currently there are more opportunites round here, especially when you are not from rich family.

PS3. Americans claim to be very patriotic, although even that in a way is superficial. When I look around here I see nobody shouting round here that we are number 1, but at the end the countroes are functioning far better as a team, than I ever felt when living in US, even though I just as same have lived in countries, where I am not citizen of.

OpenMindedRealist
[. They are told that all countries, cultures, and systems of government are basically equal (just different).

What a bunch of yanky doodle BS.

Id rather live in Norway and Swedon than the US of crappy A anyday.

Hell Id rather live in Canada

American Arrogance

Simple question.

How many US citizen have passports?

How many have actually left their country and seen other countries?

How many actually learned about other countries thru fox? and other TV program?



I see some Americans(the ignorant ones) as a fish in an aquarium, being taken care by their owner...... it doesn't know about the lakes, the rivers, the oasis or the ocean. All you have to do is condition them to believe everything out there is evil and out to kill you.. i mean tek yer freedom!

I seriously think most just look at the news and be like, "omg looks a rape, that country must be disgusting", the next day, another report of some abuse "omg again, same country, such backward people!"...

all this can be an incident where 2 billion people live.

REALITY-Check:

Norway is an oil-rich country with a very low population that is currently run by a conservative Government.

Sweden is currently under Conservative rule.

Denmark is currently under Conservative rule.

Germany is currently under Conservative rule.

Poland has overcome socialism and is absolutely booming ever since.

Austria and even more Switzerland have been very conservative for a long time.

Italy goes back and forth between left and right.

The Netherlands have become increasingly more conservative.

UK is under conservative rule.

France is slightly socialist and collapsing. Greece has been slightly socialistic for a very long time, which is why it is always bankrupt.

luciddream
How many US citizen have passports?

How many have actually left their country and seen other countries?

I do. I have. Does that make my opinions offered in this thread carry more weight for you? I've been up/down/and over many times. Including having long term continued friendships with people overseas through internet contact for the past 20 years. Some of which moved over here and were able to describe their experiences. They still live here... and go back home to visit. And still live here.

I also have friends who have moved overseas and I get the same perspectives offered in reverse. They still live there and visit over here.

luciddream
I see some Americans(the ignorant ones) as a fish in an aquarium, being taken care by their owner...... it doesn't know about the lakes, the rivers, the oasis or the ocean. All you have to do is condition them to believe everything out there is evil and out to kill you.. i mean tek yer freedom!

While overseas I saw the exact same in every country.

The US is just putting the stupid on TV and broadcasting to the world.

Guess who is actually having to confront and deal with their stupid while everyone else continues to be able to turn a blind eye because of "out of sight out of mind"?

I experienced the same level of brilliance, insight, dullness, and ignorance in every country I visited.

To be honest I was a bit disappointed how similar everything was on a human to human level once we got past the surface accents and food preferences. I had actually bought into the belief that I would be entering a more sophisticated world. In Germany I saw hatred spewed against homosexuals in the streets of Berlin worse than I've seen in person living in Texas. I have yet to witness anything like what I saw there in the streets of Austin or Dallas. Doesn't mean it's not here... but *living* here and just *visiting* there... it was *there* that I first encountered it in person.

But sure... continue the "THOSE people are SOOO different from the rest of us... hur hur" without taking a pause to consider WHY you're so aware of "American Stupidity" while also never seeming to ask why you're rarely offered "American Integrity".

How far south have you traveled? I loved my visits to Canada... reminded me of a more sedated version of home with more pleasant weather in the summer.

Could it be... could it be... no... not on a conspiracy site... we'd never consider the idea that the image portrayed in your and our popular media is... *gasp* PROPAGANDA!!!

OpenMindedRealist
[. They are told that all countries, cultures, and systems of government are basically equal (just different).

crazyewok
What a bunch of yanky doodle BS.

Id rather live in Norway and Swedon than the US of crappy A anyday.

Hell Id rather live in Canada

American Arrogance

That's your right and *freedom*. Enjoy! Has anyone asked you to come over here or said you should or that there is something wrong with you if you don't?

So what's your beef? Why are you putting so much effort into trying to point out how *awful* someone else is and superior you and the places you would choose are? We become that which we... ahh never mind.

I notice you didn't actually address anything about the core subject regarding the *actual factual* difference in the fundamental structure of the different countries. You don't have to want to participate, but when people point out that "there *is* a difference" you just jump over to "US of crappy A" and attempts and mocking name calling and claims of bull#.

Arrogance, eh? Interesting approach to combating it.

Best to you and your over abundant humility.

reply to post by Skyfloating


Conservatives in Europe are nothing like conservative in US... Most conservative parties at least in Nordics seem to be leaning more towards left than Democrats in US... On political scale real right-wing like US conservatives are not power in these countries.

In most countries both both right and left support strong welfare system. Just the attitude towards how it is achieved differs, although it is nearly impossible for any party fully be in control due to several parties being involved. If one party gains too much power, others simply form coalition and they are more votes.

Conservatives in Sweden for example call themselves moderates. For example they support legalisation of same-sex marriage...

In Sweden currently Social Democrats have more seats in parliament than the Moderate Party, although with coalitions currently Moderate Party has more votes.

In Denmark currently the government is a coalition between Social Democrats, Social Liberal Party and Socialist People´s Party, while Conservative People party has just 8 seats out of 175 in local parliament.Total of 8 parties are in the parliament.

In Poland Center-Right is in power.

I don´t know that much about central/southern Europe although I highly doubt in any European country a real right-wing party would be in power. European Conservatives are not comparable to US conservatives though, who tend to lean far-right.

PS. I would imply for a fact that no euro-rightwing politican would dare saying, as Steve Lonegan, who runs for Senator in New Jersey

"I'll be as callous and uncaring as you can imagine. I have no interest in paying for your health care. I'd hate to see you get cancer, but that's your problem, not mine. I'm going to pay for my health care, I'm going to take care of my children's health care and tend to my wife. And when I stand for charity care (inaudible), you [and] no one else has the authority to infringe on my right (inaudible) dig into my pocket and my ability to pay for your health care or anybody else's."

Saying something like that would mean, you can only dream of being elected, I doubt even your party would have any chances at all in the elections.

In my opinion, such attitude is just sick and I sincerely hope no person like that would ever get elected in any country.

BardingTheBard
Has anyone asked you to come over here or said you should or that there is something wrong with you if you don't?

Actually I have been. My department moved from the UK to the USA and I was invited to go with them. Got offerd a Greencard and everything. Turned it down

BardingTheBard
So what's your beef? Why are you putting so much effort into trying to point out how *awful* someone else is and superior you and the places you would choose are? We become that which we... ahh never mind.

Never said its awful (though if you default it will be) just dont think its anything special. Ok living in the USA beats Iran or China but then at the end of the say its not much better than the UK.

BardingTheBard
I notice you didn't actually address anything about the core subject regarding the *actual factual* difference in the fundamental structure of the different countries.

Actually I made a point ealier in the thread about the success of a country being tied to its size and population not its economic system. Will be makeing a stand alone thread soon on that.

BardingTheBard
You don't have to want to participate, but when people point out that "there *is* a difference" you just jump over to "US of crappy A" and attempts and mocking name calling and claims of bull#.

I just dont like RAR RAR American excepsilisim crap. American are trhe same sacks of meat that me and everyone else is. Your not more evolved or gods people or what ever you think makes you so special. Fact is there is more than one way to run a country and more than one way to measure success. Plus if American were so Special and exceptional then you wouldnt be on the verge of bankruptsy and economic ruin.

Cabin
reply to post by Skyfloating

 

Conservatives in Europe are nothing like conservative in US..

They are MUCH closer to conservatives than they are to socialists. Ive heard this false argument so often its not even worth replying. The idea that Europe is mostly "socialist" is nonsense. Its an attempt by socialists to reframe what socialism means because they were embarrassed by its results in Russia, Cuba, Africa, etc.

Europe is a center-right, center-left political mix of liberal democracies with a lot of capitalism thrown in. They have nothing to do with socialism.

crazyewok
Actually I have been. My department moved from the UK to the USA and I was invited to go with them. Got offerd a Greencard and everything. Turned it down

If you honestly didn't realize I'm speaking about the people in this thread regarding someone having a "wh000 USA is da best everyone should be like us!" and telling you to come here... then... *shrug*

I've been offered a job in Finland. That doesn't mean it had anything to do with the nature of the government.

crazyewok
I just dont like RAR RAR American excepsilisim crap. American are trhe same sacks of meat that me and everyone else is. Your not more evolved or gods people or what ever you think makes you so special.

I'm going to be very very frank with you.

You behave and write *exactly* like those people. You *sound* like the "typical American".

crazyewok
Fact is there is more than one way to run a country and more than one way to measure success. Plus if American were so Special and exceptional then you wouldnt be on the verge of bankruptsy and economic ruin.

If you read my posts in here you will see that I've made that first point QUITE heavily.

You were given the opportunity to have an actual discussion about this stuff, but you kept resorting to "US of crappy A" and "yankee doodle" mockery and posting pictures as if they are evidence of anything meaningful. We can post pictures of Dubai if we like.

It requires an exceptionally short vision and awareness if you haven't come to recognize the nature of the financial situation right now as it relates to the world at large. The US financial situation is due to a world wide configuration that virtually all the western nation's governments knowingly and willingly participated in. The UK in particular.

The entire situation is a script being played out and has been planned well in advance. It has no more to do with Americans than the British being on the verge of losing in WW2 and needing a bailout has to do with the British. The British weren't going to be *allowed* to win because it was necessary for people who operate above a national level to get the US dragged into the war specifically so the levers could be pulled that would get everyone in the world where we find ourselves right now.

OpenMindedRealist above you tried to explain the difference between "American Exceptionalism" historically (as it relates to the Bill of Rights) versus the WW2 and beyond version which is pure propaganda and was conflated with "national pride and we're da best rah rah". I wrote repeatedly what the source of that is... why it is *real* but has nothing to do with the *people* being inherently "better".

You have fallen for propaganda and you continue to perpetuate it. You have repeatedly ignored and rejected people attempting to make a real effort to converse... and I think if you go back and look at my and a few other people's post in here you will see *exactly* where the arrogance and "rah rah" is coming from.

I experienced national/cultural arrogance in France (go ahead... try to deny French "superiority" attitudes). In Germany. In Taiwan. In Japan (though they veil it quite well) Etc. Their TV just doesn't reach as much of the world as the US does, so it isn't as blatantly on display.

Again... you have fallen for TV propaganda and when you were given the opportunity to actually show you truly are better than those you mock, you resorted to acting just like them.

You are the UK equivalent of the Americans you mock.

If you think I'm being insulting, that's your loss. Take it or leave it.

Thank you for your time.

reply to post by BardingTheBard


Im not sure what the point your trying to make.
I never claimed the UK was exceptional or anything or the sort. Nor am I supporting UK suppremacy.

UK is in just a mess as the USA.

My point is scanidinavia countrys are obviosly doing a better job than both of our countrys and so is singapore, Hongkong and the Bahama.

So there seems to be a few ways to run a successfull country, the "american way" is not nessarly the right way.

And those countrys that are makeing things work will likley be draged down by the USA comeing collaspse.

reply to post by crazyewok

I addressed the Scandinavian situation quite deeply, and got no response.

Instead there was just more shallow mockery adding no information.

My point is regarding your behavior and speaking style being just like the "typical yankee doodles" you are mocking. Trust me I live much closer to them and hear them more often than you. You are quite like "them", in almost every way I can imagine.

Whether it comes in the form of self rah rah or poo pooing others... it is a form of arrogance and your mannerisms and way of referring to others is "typically American".

People made an effort to help politely transfer some factual information you can verify for yourself via research regarding the fundamental LEGAL difference in the nature of the US Bill of Rights versus other countries and you wrote... this in response. Awesome. Thanks for the intriguing insights.

crazyewok
And those countrys that are makeing things work will likley be draged down by the USA comeing collaspse.

I've written extensively about this in the thread trying to provide historical and current information to fill in the nature of the situation we all find ourselves in right now and how it came to be. Rather than just keep repeating the same propaganda... assuming you already know the answer... pause to read and understand.

Nobody will be dragged down that isn't designed to be dragged down. Nobody will prosper that isn't designed to prosper. By people operating financially above *all* nations.

All currencies are backed by "confidence". All nations are running on "confidence". This factually means... and no amount of financial wordplay can undo it... that every Scandinavian country is fundamentally bankrupt as well. The game continues so long as people continue to have confidence nobody is going to take their chips off the table.

Fiat currency based nations are floated or sunk as per the needs of the international financial interests. The Scandinavian countries are being positioned to be where the US was in the 50's and/or the 90's. When it comes time to harvest they will be harvested. And everyone will wonder what happened and some people who have yet to figure it out will say "Well... them Scandinavians... you know how they are!"

Nobody is living under the "American System" any longer. The United States system operating right now is the UK/European System that existed before the United States was founded. The system 'bringing everyone down" is the system the UK and Europe embraced hundreds of years ago when fractional reserve bankers got their fingers in permanently and have never let go. A system the founding Americans rejected.

Americans dropped the ball... especially in 1913... and it's been the European system ever since. A system which has been bringing nations to their knees for centuries.

You don't *kill* your ranch when you're hungry. You just fatten and then harvest in periodic cycles. You also don't raise the crop in the same place every time... you cycle through the various plots you have at your disposal. This ensures you don't over-fatigue a specific location and gives enough time for the region to recover.

BardingTheBard
Nobody is living under the "American System" any longer. The United States system operating right now is the UK/European System that existed before the United States was founded. The system 'bringing everyone down" is the system the UK and Europe embraced hundreds of years ago when fractional reserve bankers got their fingers in permanently and have never let go. A system the founding Americans rejected.

Except for het minor point that fractional reserve banking didn't exist before 1776.......

And the US was perfectly happy to work with the banking system that did exist in 1776.....

Oops..!!

Aloysius the Gaul
Except for het minor point that fractional reserve banking didn't exist before 1776.......

And the US was perfectly happy to work with the banking system that did exist in 1776.....

Oops..!!

I'll give you a chance before I fully reply.

Is it your assertion and claim to truth and honesty in your representation here... that there were not banks, governments, and organizations tasked with holding gold/goods prior to 1776 which were putting out more promissory notes for payment than they had stocked in their vaults?

reply to post by crazyewok


Look, I could go through all of the rebuttals that flashed through my mind while reading this thread, but I just don't think it would be worth my time. The only ones who would listen are the ones who already agree with me. Instead I will launch a bevy of personal atta-- *ahem* offer a series of observations.

I believe that you have more in common with the typical American than you realize.
1. An inflated sense of your own intelligence based solely on the assumption that people must get smarter every generation (plus, you read stuff on the internet, right??)

2. Historical familiarity reaching all the way back to 1975 (but who cares about those dummies from the past? They didn't even have wikipedia)

3. General apathy resultant of several generations raised on ideology like "No body can really be any better than anybody else" and "Only backward fools take pride in their culture"

4. Having visited several different countries (and maybe even another continent) for a few days, you feel qualified to represent those nations at the UN

I grow weary of this, but you get the point. I bought into the same lies growing up. Ten years ago I thought there was nothing that special about my country. Then I taught myself some history, and started looking at the world around me. The UK, and England in particular, also made tremendous contributions to the modern world. It's too bad that message is repressed in your country as well.

reply to post by OpenMindedRealist


Never said the USA wasnt special in the past.

If anything it probably could have been classec as "exceptional"

But thats not a pemanent title and one you lost at least for the time being and if you default thurs then most likeky permently.

You cant say your exceptional you need to act exceptional and it stop doing that since vietnam.

Something for the peanut gallery to contemplate.

A partial list of Canadian, British, and European banks the US Federal Reserve used "emergency powers" to give zero interest loans to from 2007 to 2009. This doesn't include the European+ corporations that were also included in these "emergency loans" aka bailouts.

Canadian Banks
Royal Bank of Canada
Toronto-Dominion Bank
Scotiabank

European Banks
Barclays Capital (British)
BNP Paribas (French)
Societe Generale (French)
Bank of Scotland
Credit Suisse (Switzerland)
UBS (Switzerland)
Dexia (Belgium)
Deutsche Bank (German)
Bayerische Landesbank (Germany)
Dresdner Bank (Germany)
Commerzbank (Germany)

BardingTheBard

Aloysius the Gaul
Except for het minor point that fractional reserve banking didn't exist before 1776.......

And the US was perfectly happy to work with the banking system that did exist in 1776.....

Oops..!!

I'll give you a chance before I fully reply.

Is it your assertion and claim to truth and honesty in your representation here... that there were not banks, governments, and organizations tasked with holding gold/goods prior to 1776 which were putting out more promissory notes for payment than they had stocked in their vaults?

nope.

anything else?

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

Nope what?

Nope... nobody loaned out more than they had on reserve prior to 1776.
or
Nope... you are *not* stating that nobody loaned out more than they had on reserve prior to 1776.

I'm simply ensuring your honesty in your claims is *absolutely* clear for myself and anyone else reading this exchange.