You are all gonna live like in socialist scandinavia

links234

I believe it's something about the percent of GDP or something like that.

Yup you got it.

If its over 80-90% is were the problems are.

But these tea parts idiots wont accept that.

Any chance to put down another country they will take.

Look at the pic



The northen Europe countrys are not doing to bad.

Doesnt mean that the USA isnt under big problems. It just means that Scandinavia has a working system or at least one that works better than USA/UK.

xuenchen
[
The numbers are just as bad.

Again nope!





Again either they debt has flatlined and not increaseing or they are slowly paying it off.


Im disapointed in you. Normaly you posts can be rather intresting.

But your just makeing knee jerk statements here with twisted facts that really are not true.


Its not saying captlism is wrong or that not what you should want for the USA. But there are other system that other countrys have got working. Just accept that and move on.

Anyway Norway has given us this


Th Fox

Bluesma
Your description of the way the american system has has deteriotrated does not challenge my assertion that possibly all systems will do so, one way or another.
I still hold that entropy is probably inevitable, and adaptability seems to be a bigger a factor in evolution and survival of systems than is remaining static.

Sure... if you consider "entropy" to be the equivalent of failing to maintain your car because you're constantly being deceived into helping fight your neighbors battles and believe they *actually* intend to improve, but never do, even though you have nothing to do with their disagreements. While trying to help one part of the family... their kids are coming over hitting it with baseball bats and stripping it of whatever they can take.

Sure. Entropy.

Europe has been letting banking interests cause it to fight itself and the rest of the world for over a thousand years alone. Europeans blamed each other rather than the source. The brightest, most honest and dedicated to their land and families, and strongest male Europeans have been getting killed off for thousands of years. Consider the implications to your "evolution". Consider who might want to do that and why.

The US simply fell under the same yoke of the Central Bankers later than the UK and the rest of Europe. This happened during a period Americans truly believed they were helping the UK and other allies fight a "common enemy" through two world wars. Despite just a short while ago these same "allies" were actively trying to undermine the US in other failed attempts. It was just a change of tactics by the banking interests. Like any con man making use of the honesty of another as a shield and a tool. Once they finally had their threads deeply embedded enough the US was fully British/European again in all but image and we have been joining your absurd war parties ever since even though we no more desired to do so than most Europeans desire the current situation and consequences of the EU.

What some Europeans fail to comprehend is the US was Europeanized in all fundamental ways that matter, while the surface was being *amplified* to give the appearance of being "other". The American values were under constant attack from the very start, but due to a geographical situation that made it virtually impossible to retake by force... political and economic war was the name of the game.

What you are seeing in the US is a concentrated reflection of the UK and Europe up to the early 20th century. But now you get to watch it on TV. Once the US was fully under the invisible control of financial interests it then became the extended arm doing the work that the UK and Europe *used* to do for the Central Bankers. If the US didn't exist... it would be European nations doing what the US is currently doing. It's not that Europeans "grew out of it". You were just no longer needed for or asked to do the jobs that the US was now better equipped to perform for the banking interests.

The US is European now. And you hate the reflection. You don't want to acknowledge the role played here that had already brought Europe under submission. Those Americans left who still understand what it meant to be American relative to the nightmare going on in Europe at the time of founding... also hate the reflection.

So yes, entropy is inevitable. But it doesn't mean the French, British, Americans, Germans, Italians, Spanish, etc aren't fully capable of maintaining their cars... if we would all just stop being so stupid as to allow the Central Banking infection to continue. It has never been us against each other... it has been them manipulating all of us via lies, fabrications, tapping into the deepest fears and passions, targeting the ignorant with "printed money" to place them in high positions and put the words in their mouths to deceive entire nations into believing something about other nations that wasn't true... but unable to be tested... etc.

The US has been a European nation in all ways that matter since 1913... and we've been stuck playing the same European script right along side you.

Hooray for all of us.

Cars can be maintained... so can nations. Entropy and needing to "adapt" have nothing to do with dealing with a group of people who have as their sole goal to take your car from you and "let you ride around in it, so long as you don't cause too much trouble"... and if they can't take it then their other goal is to destroy it so you can't drive on "their roads".

There is no "adaptation" and "evolution" in Central Banking. We're *all* being attacked and de-volved by it. We've ALL been prevented from actually evolving by it.

We do not get to have opinions on what happened except whether we support it or not. What happened happened and there is a true story there. We *do* get to decide to keep believing the lies a small group of people are constantly telling about all of us... or finally stop pointing at each other and look the people who have been pushing us all into wars in the eye and say no.

Bluesma
As it is, people with much more education and knowledge than us...

You are only in a position to speak for yourself there.

However there are valuable resources if you wish to make use of them.
Democracy in America by Alexis de Tocqueville. Brilliant European coming over to describe what he saw of America and how it compared to the other things going on in Europe at the same time.
(pdf) www2.hn.psu.edu...

Creature from Jekyll Island by G. Edward Griffin. Focuses on the Federal Reserve... but is in truth a huge history lesson on money, banking interests, etc. as they relate to the real world tangible effects we can observe and have been lied to about.
(multiple options) archive.org...

These are not intended as final arbiters of truth... but as excellent launching points for further research and challenges of "what we know".

Bluesma
...do not agree and still have opinions on this, so I guess nobody is God and can claim to possess ultimate divine truth . That would be really fun though.

You don't have to be God or claim divine truth to recognize the finger print of Central Banking. We've had the evidence and warnings for hundreds of years from simple humans who lived through them... and humans who lived through usury based and inflationary based economies for thousands of years.

To ignore their warnings though...

People have written volumes about the effects of Central Banking, debt based economies, inflation, usury, etc. The education on it is simple, but nobody can be forced to learn *and* understand.

Without the role of Central Bankers printing money for nothing... we'd all quickly find out how little our differences matter... and how much we share in common in our ability to *actually* grow and maintain our nations.

BardingTheBard

Sure... if you consider "entropy" to be the equivalent of failing to maintain your car because you're constantly being deceived into helping fight your neighbors battles and believe they *actually* intend to improve, but never do, even though you have nothing to do with their disagreements. While trying to help one part of the family... their kids are coming over hitting it with baseball bats and stripping it of whatever they can take......

I consider that no car will run forever, even if you maintain it. It is a system too. "If it's not one thing, it's another..." (as Rosanna Rosannadanna used to say )

The US is European now. And you hate the reflection.

What?? I hate what? I don't feel like I hate anything! Where did you get this idea??

It has never been us against each other... it has been them manipulating all of us via lies, fabrications, tapping into the deepest fears and passions, targeting the ignorant with "printed money" to place them in high positions and put the words in their mouths to deceive entire nations into believing something about other nations that wasn't true... but unable to be tested... etc.

So... you agree with me then? It was certain people, corrupt and power hungry, that did this to the masses of both Europe and America..?

The US has been a European nation in all ways that matter since 1913... and we've been stuck playing the same European script right along side you.

-You do realize I am American...?

Cars can be maintained... so can nations. Entropy and needing to "adapt" have nothing to do with dealing with a group of people who have as their sole goal to take your car from you and "let you ride around in it, so long as you don't cause too much trouble"... and if they can't take it then their other goal is to destroy it so you can't drive on "their roads".

That is more about individuals right to pursue happiness... it made them happy to do this, you see. They couldn't be expected to limit their pursuit of happiness in the name of "the majority", or the collective, could they?
But corruption is as old as humans themselves, no matter what the values in vogue anyway.

We've ALL been prevented from actually evolving by it.

I don't know.... Rome fell, many a nation fell from their position as world power, and and humanity went on to evolve anyway...I hear what you are saying, just not ready to agree yet. I'd like to watch and see a bit longer and see if humanity continues to exist over the next fifty years.

We do not get to have opinions on what happened except whether we support it or not.

Oh I allow myself that freedom. I do get to have an opinion.

You are only in a position to speak for yourself there.

Fair enough. I am not a mental health professional, and I have not spent any time with the people who did these things, learning about their inner motivations for the things they did. Maybe you are and have. I do not know.

My opinion was and is on why these things happened, not whether they did or not. I still feel that we all have an innate draw to power, and as we gain it, many people become corrupt with it, and put the wellbeing of the rest of their society under the bus in contrast to their personal happiness. I think that is a pretty possible motivation. But it IS just an opinion, I won't claim it to be ultimate truth. I will defend my right to have it though.

We've had the evidence and warnings for hundreds of years from simple humans who lived through them... and humans who lived through usury based and inflationary based economies for thousands of years.

To ignore their warnings though...

Well, I am not real educated, myself, and didn't feel like I had a lot of power beyond voting. As of the year 2000; I felt it was unavoidable, so we found a remote mountain home, with three foot thick stone walls, a view for many miles in each direction, natural water springs, everything we need to survive. We filled our caves with equipment , bought lots of weapons and learned how to use them. I don't feel that I have been ignoring anything. We've done what we could.

xuenchen
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

 

yes yes of course.

we've all seen the results of debt management by the experts.

Yes - Scandenavia - especially Norway, which may have the largest sovereign wealth fund in the world

get ready to get busted-out by the most educated expert geniuses in the world.

But I suspect you are talking about the 2008 WFC and the Euro-melt-down?

In which case I would submit that those are not the result of debts managed by debt-management experts - they were the results of money-making schemes run by short sighted "free market" capitalists with an eye for "making a buck" and nothing else.

Essentially the fox was put in charge of the chicken coop!

They are EXACTLY why debt DOES need to be overseen by debt management experts and not money-market traders!

Bluesma
I consider that no car will run forever, even if you maintain it. It is a system too. "If it's not one thing, it's another..." (as Rosanna Rosannadanna used to say

)

Every car *design* can run forever. Refreshed parts that function as the previous parts designed do the job. We have to be careful with our metaphors. A government isn't a piece of material experiencing the same sort of entropy as the material entropy of the universe. The "design" of an axe from 100,000 years ago still works just fine today if you follow the design correctly.

The entropy of a system lies in the failure to propagate the design correctly, not in the inevitable breakdown of the design itself.

The US is European now. And you hate the reflection.

Bluesma
What?? I hate what? I don't feel like I hate anything! Where did you get this idea??

Apologies... that was the collective "you" regarding general attitude of "WTF Americans?" Also hate was clearly far too strong of a word.

Bluesma
So... you agree with me then? It was certain people, corrupt and power hungry, that did this to the masses of both Europe and America..?

I don't believe I've suggested otherwise (probably my primary reason for joining ATS was to continue exploring and discussing that very thing).

That said... I don't agree that it is due to an inherent entropy in the design of all governments. Only governments financing themselves through deficit spending, inflationary policies, fiat, etc. experience the inherent decay and destruction.

What I'm getting at... is many many nations have come up with excellent systems designs. People keep trying to identify what's wrong in the *system*... without EVER addressing the real issue. There are benign dictatorships that can create powerful productive healthy societies, and ones that crush them. There are democracies that descend into fascism, and those that provide enormous freedom of expression for the variety of people.

I'm aiming directly at the source of every system's downfall to highlight the issue we *all* have to address regardless of our chosen system. A communist country run on fiat will fail. A communist country run on sound financial grounds might do great (so long as people can join/leave freely). A socialist country run on fiat will fail. A democratic country run on fiat will fail. A dictatorship run on fiat will fail.

There was something unique about the American system regarding how it viewed humans as sovereign and government servant... but that doesn't mean everyone should follow it. Only those who fit well in that system.

The systems as *designed* worked well. The systems, when a people allow fiat to enter the picture, ALL collapse.

No different than a car design works well... but if you put water in the gas tank it *will* break down. It is part of our concern as citizens to educate and do our best to prevent people from putting water in gas tanks. If we let the water tankers take charge... then only they will have cars that run.

The US has been a European nation in all ways that matter since 1913... and we've been stuck playing the same European script right along side you.

Bluesma
-You do realize I am American...?

Yes. We spoke in the french pageant thread. You have also made it clear in here and in there the divide you perceive between the two continents and where your preference lies (I have no negative feelings about your perspectives).

My only commentary in what you've replied to is that Europe/UK/US are *all* part of the same script... except the US portion of the script is to play the world wide bad guy. The bad guy that used to be the UK in particular. The UK was retired from this role during WW2 and the torch was passed to the US. The rest of Europe directly fighting each other was no longer needed so there hasn't been any further real inner conflict... and the script changed to spread elsewhere.

So when Europeans are boggling at Americans... without realizing that the US is for all intents a European nation with a bigger body of water between us now doing the job they used to do because the US was able to do it better now... not because Europe had "matured"... it just makes me chuckle.

Bluesma
That is more about individuals right to pursue happiness... it made them happy to do this, you see. They couldn't be expected to limit their pursuit of happiness in the name of "the majority", or the collective, could they?

But corruption is as old as humans themselves, no matter what the values in vogue anyway.

But of course. Again... we are speaking from slightly different angles.

I've made it clear it was the American's responsibility to repel the corruption and it didn't happen. Thus the current situation is our fault... and we're having to re-educate ourselves. Currently there is a great deal of pressure to throw the design itself out without having done anything to address the actual source of disease that will bring down whatever other system is put in place.

My assertion is that the design of the system itself... fundamentally addresses the core issues of the corruption. But if the education lapses... and the reasons for the system being the way it is are forgotten... then the system is no longer being utilized.

The attacks are always upon either 1) the stupidity of Americans (even though all that happened to the US is they finally fell for the same trick Europe has been tricked by for a thousand years) or 2) the flaw in the US system itself.

Without focusing on the source that targets all our systems. Fractional Reserve banking, fiat currencies, and high interest rates, etc... were they to be acknowledged worldwide for what they really are... would be put under the same degree of "must not use" as Nuclear Bombs.

Then we'd *all* get to find out just how incredible the variety of systems for people to choose to live in we've been hammering away at all this time really are.

Thank you for the opportunity to share our perspectives.

I mean just look at the povertry and suffering in the soviet country of Norway!





And look at the sad deprived people yearning for yanky doodle freedom




Maybe America should inavde them to give them the benfits of the USA

crazyewok

That's Austin, Texas. United States.

It's quite Yankee Doodle Dandy indeed... in my opinion!

reply to post by BardingTheBard


oopp I just pulled random norway pcitures off google and it came under norway.

Il find a better one

crazyewok
reply to post by BardingTheBard

 

oopp I just pulled random norway pcitures off google and it came under norway.

Il find a better one

Go google Oslo, if there's tall buildings like in Austin, it aint from Norway.

Ivar_Karlsen

crazyewok
reply to post by BardingTheBard

 

oopp I just pulled random norway pcitures off google and it came under norway.

Il find a better one

Go google Oslo, if there's tall buildings like in Austin, it aint from Norway.

I just did

Anyway why am I defending norway! You should be doing it

xuenchen

crazyewok

xuenchen
reply to post by Merinda

 

What's the national debts of all these nations.

I bet they're just as broke as everybody else.

Nope norway, swedon and demark have a very sustainble debt and in some cases run a surplus :p

Nawwwhhh.

They're just as busted out as anybody.

Per Capita national debts:

Norway = $55,000

Sweden = $20,000

Denmark = $26,000

U.S. = $40,000

Australia = $17,000

Canada = $45,000

U.K. = $37,000

Japan = $99,000

Better:

Russia = $1,300

China = $1,100


They're all a bunch of Rothschild bust outs.

Global Debts

I'm an Australian, how long do you think it would take the average Australian to earn $17,000? (The average Aussie income is $50,000 per year) hmmm...

How long would it take the average American to earn the same amount?

Yep thought so. Stop denying your sub-standard living conditions and wake up to the real world.

EDIT: The dole here(welfare) is more that $17,000 per year

All the Scandinavian countries are doing pretty well no ?

I certainly wouldnt mind living in one.

(Did anyone point out Scandinavia is not a country yet ?)

When the Scandinavian countries find themselves useful to the banker wars and are "asked" (forced) to give up their productivity to "save" an ailing "ally" we‘ll see just how well everything holds up. Every nation is fattened before slaughter. Every nation is given a window of wide open prosperity and enough time... a generation or two at the minimum... for the dependency on the system rather than the people to take hold and any memory or understanding of the reasons for previous restraint to have been lost.

Then the screws tighten. The divisions in culture begin or re-emerge. A culturally divisive tragedy "happens". A program needs to trim benefits or the currency must inflate. The currency ultimately inflates. The economy suffers. Savings diminish. Debt increases.

Frustration in and with an unemployable youth increases. Booms and Busts become more frequent and more dramatic. Demands for entitlements increase despite a decrease in productivity. Small at first... but despite all the talking about doing something about it... the trend continues.

More inflation. More debt. Rumors and threats of Russia using them as a path to Europe rise again... fear... militarization... diversion of productive enterprises into exceptionally expensive defensive enterprises ramp up. More debt... borrowed from someone else. Someone else's Central Bank. With strings attached. etc. etc.

It's a script. It's been run over and over. The only protection is truly understanding the role you currently are playing in the script and quitting that movie and writing a different script. But then you'll find bombs on your doorstep... or the emergence of a ruthless "resistance group". An attempted coup. A rigged election. etc etc.

If you are running on fiat... and the Scandinavian countries are... you are prosperous or struggling at the desire and whims of the global financial interests... not any innate betterment as a people. This is something Americans are (thankfully) slowly coming back to terms with after being one of the recent nations sent for slaughter and harvest... and "they're" not done with us yet.

As soon as we stop thinking nations are rising and falling anywhere in this modern era because of anything but financial control motives of people and groups that operate above national levels... the sooner we can deal with the real sources of most financial busts and conflict internally and internationally.

Scandinavian nations are beautiful juicy financial targets. If we've got another 100 years we'll see you on the other side and will give you a hug... and some books on the history of financial effects of central banking fractional reserve entitlement nations. But you won't need them then because you'll understand it intimately. And wonder why your grandparents could be so hypnotized by the lure of material prosperity and entitlement programs, without recognizing the foundation it is being built upon.

Or is the priority really only about the prosperity in this lifetime and not really concerned with the long term sustainability when the economic/political weather ceases to be so accommodating? When it's the grandchildren "running things" who know nothing of the past experiences and are unable to detect/deal with the changes/deceptions because they never had to learn or study because "it's working great!" Like a kid that was never taught to avoid getting in a stranger's car because their parents kept them well protected among friends and family.

People have been giving warnings for centuries. But 'tis human to think "We know better than those out dated people" and "this time it's different".

There is nothing that ever goes out of date or ever turns out different when it comes to allowing someone to print money for free and buy things/people with that money. Whether it's a kid with a printer or a "banker" with the "authority" of the government.

/hug

reply to post by BardingTheBard


I will remind you that my first post, that you responded to, expressed my opinion that the European countries and the United States are essentially the same in the bigger picture. That they go through and have gone through the same sorts of phases and cycles, just at different points of time- no country is really "better" than another in the long run.


To take that, and tell me my loyalty runs more with one than another,
To tell me I hate the reflection of Europe" I see in the US,
To tell me that what we really need to do is stop pointing fingers at each other and blaming,
Just makes it seem like you did not read my post and were just looking for someone to argue with?

If so, you will have to find someone else for that- you have made a mistake here.


--But not directed at any poster in particular- why do we so often find this to happen? Any suggestion that the US might be equal to other countries around the world is taken offensively, as if what was said was that the US is INFERIOR to other countries???
If one expresses an equal appreciation of both Europe and America, many Americans hear a preference for Europe, instead of what was literally expressed??

reply to post by Bluesma

Understood and thank you for the clarification.

Please understand my primary emphasis when entering the thread was to try to point out that there *is* a fundamental legal difference in the US Bill of Rights versus virtually every other similar document. This might be clearer if you view my first couple of posts before my reply to you. Then my reply to you might make more sense in full context. I re-read your first post and it helped me as well.

It got diverted and most of what you mentioned in the rest of your post above was not directed at you specifically in the way you took it, in the same way you did not mean some things the way I appear to have taken them.

This entry into the thread was to address how the difference in the variety of "rights" documents was repeatedly being ignored as evidenced by the post suggesting the Canadian Charter was pretty much the same as the US Bill of Rights.

They are related, but they are not the same... and are most different at the most important part.

That part is this:

The US Bill of Rights begins with the people as sovereign and the government as servant. The Bill of Rights is a list of what the government may *not* do. The Bill of Rights is a limitation the *people* placed upon the *government*.

Documents like the Canadian Charter are aiming toward the same goal, but coming from a completely different direction. The Canadian Charter *gives* the citizens rights. The Canadian Charter is given *to* the people *by* the government.

This is not a trivial distinction... thus why if we're going to truly attempt to understand the true legal foundations of these things we *have* to take this aspect into account.

Most people who have never lived in the US, and even most who do... do not understand there is a fundamental difference and thus they fall into a trap of truly believing it's "all the same". It is not all the same... just as being taxed for a service is not the same as purchasing a service.

People don't want to acknowledge that there *was* something exceptional about the American system. Not the people inherently no... but the system that was setup was exceptional (meaning it was an exception... not necessarily better as that is up to the individual to determine).

It has not been an effort to defend American Awesomeness... it's addressing the fundamental facts that are frequently gotten wrong as most people truly don't understand the difference between rights given to people by a government versus restrictions being placed on a government by the people.

I assure you I don't have enough time for petty bickering about America being awesome. America has sold itself to the devil, wolves, and every financial sleaze that came knocking. But there is something fundamentally different about the root founding worth understanding and few are taking the time to truly understand it.

Thank you again for the discussion.

reply to post by tothetenthpower


"Glad you don't have guns"...sure you are.
Go ahead, sit there and laugh at us for buying tyrannical government insurance all these years. It might pay off one day. Besides, guns are fun to play with even if we never need to file a claim.

By the way, you're welcome for that fine Made In Georgia production that you seem so fond of.


In all seriousness, the benefits of an armed populous far outweigh the cost.
And thanks for the Trailer Park Boys.

reply to post by BardingTheBard


You make the case quite well, Bard. All we can do is spread the truth.

It is a real shame that the US Constitution is under-appreciated by so many Americans. Most have been programmed to think that American Exceptionalism was never anything more than foolish nationalism. They are told that all countries, cultures, and systems of government are basically equal (just different). They have been led to believe that there is nothing special about our nation's founding, when in truth it marked a unique turning point in human history.