Why become enlightened?

The science of creation in the universe is more powerful than delusion and less powerful than righteousness so when religion is equal to delusion the righteousness of society is also equal to delusion, so they do not hear the action, nor any thought but that of the ego. The whole aspect of create and destroy is played out in nature with predators trying to get protein essentials and prey getting carbohydrates in reflect to the events happening in the universe right now. I still question...

reply to post by dominicus

IF I help a stranger, in what way am I profiting? How is it my best interest to help others?

You know there are a lot of studies coming out on the top 1% of billionaires and those at the top of power structures that show they are sociopaths, with no empathy, which means they only care about themselves.

In psychology, to have no empathy, to be so into your self that you do not care about others, in considered a mental illness.

Then why do you help a stranger? I'm not sure if you've answered this question yet.

How do you know? Seriously, prove it

Because I see nothing different between those who say they are enlightened and those who don't. How do you know someone is enlightened? Should we believe everyone who tells us they are enlightened?

I seriously Love you, because i know from experience that within you is a soul, that we are One, that we are in this together, but that your view is skewed. So out of love, there is caring and lovingly sharing.

Enlightenment does not need to be defended, because if you have built up for yourself a bunch of illusions around it not existing, then for you, its not real. For those whoa re in it, they understand that until you drop all illusions, you can never uncover it in yourself until first admitting it may be possible.

Then why defend it if it doesn't need defending? This is the whole point.

I know for a fact, that the cause f all of the worlds ills, is the ego. ANd I know for a fact, that there is something called ego death and Enlightenment, which solve the problem of the ego. And so I share 100's of methods (none of which I invented but many which I have tested to be true) so that people can go and uncover Enlightenment within themselves.

So far, in person, I have about 5 individuals who have uncovered in themselves through my explanantion, and their lives are a million times better because of it. No $ to charge, no need to worship me, just a sharing with friends. Guess what, they've all said the same thing, "Wow, its like I've been unconsciously sleepwalking through life completely unaware of myself and reality!!!!."

I think anyone who doesn't know how to control themselves and their ego would say the same thing.

Isn't bettering someone also helping them?

That would be bettering them according to your standards, and not theirs.

If this isn't your problem, why make this thread and argue counter to Enlightenment, if you have never checked to see if it exists? Behind the thread and arguing is a reason, motivation, belief system, structure.

For pleasure. To have a healthy debate with someone such as yourself. To practice thinking and writing. To put my own ideals against the ideals of others to see how they stand. To better myself.

If you looked in the right place, you would have found, if you would have found, you would never argue counter to the point nor have the need to start this thread.

And what place is that? Where exactly are you looking?

Lol, you think thats all the human beings do, is "think?" What does thinking have to do with going within and exploring whats there?

I said every human thinks. Not that all humans do is think. I believe thinking is a better technique than having someone think for me. How else does one explore what is within? And what do you mean by "within"?

I've written some fiction in the past that took me about a good 6 months to write. Am I not allowed to receive some sort of monetary exchange for the work I put in for the sake of furthering your entertainment (or if its non-fiction, for expanding your knowledge base?)

One time I wanted to learn how to make Sushi, so I bought a book with a DVD on how to do it. I never once thought, "This guy wrote this Sushi book just to make money off others, what a scam artist!!!!!"

I don't see anything wrong with selling books. But I would wager that it isn't a method of an enlightened being to sell his teachings on the world he wishes to ease the suffering of. That is my only argument in these regards.

reply to post by Aphorism

Then why do you help a stranger? I'm not sure if you've answered this question yet.

Because in me there is Selflessness. To put aside what I want/need/desire (since contentment already exists), for the sake of another. It is built in the intuition and the heart. In many, this virtue and ability is gained upon having children.

Because I see nothing different between those who say they are enlightened and those who don't. How do you know someone is enlightened? Should we believe everyone who tells us they are enlightened?

Those who are Enlightened, will look exactly like a regular person on the outside, but it is what is on the inside the makes the entire difference.

You can know if Enlightenment is real and if someone is Enlightened, by asking how they got there, and then seeing for yourself if its there. Then you will find that they were telling the truth. There is a difference in their demeanor, as if staring into the eyes of a man who has seen Infinity, and lived to tell about it, selfless, compassionate, psychologically whole, complete, wise, knowledgable in his/her field.

Then why defend it if it doesn't need defending? This is the whole point.

You asked, "Why Become Enlightened?"

I answered: "Because the alternative is to remain Unenlightened, which sucks."

What is the definition of Enlightenment according to what the majority of cultures who teach Enlightenment agree upon?

Completely wrapped up in an unconscious mode of living, where consciousness is fully asleep, filtered by an ego that filters, causes mass delusions, stress, worry, division, separation, racism, hatred, greed, corruption, selfishness, constant desire/want, looking for a way to be fulfilled but not finding anything lasting, psychologically broken, incomplete, self-justifications into various modes immorality, non/low level of intuition, ignorance, etc.

When you ask a killer/criminal what was their frame of mind/reason for their act, it will boil down to some, or all of the above.

The alternative is not so nice.

I think anyone who doesn't know how to control themselves and their ego would say the same thing.

You want video testimony of the 5 people I helped to point the way towards Enlightenment? There's no boasting in this. I've had at least a dozen influential teachers in my life, who I've acknowledged that they knew more than me, humbled myself, listened, learned, and eventually reached their level of understanding.

What that has to do with controlling themselves/ego, I have no clue.

That would be bettering them according to your standards, and not theirs.

A homeless alcoholic would have as his standard, that giving him more alcohol is bettering him. If you want to play the game of bettering according to subjective standards, your going to have a bad time.

The world has a built in mechanism, found in nature, of bettering.

Bears teach their cubs to hunt = Education.
Healthiest/Strongest/Fittest has advantage = Health/Strength, emotionally/psychologically/physically/intellectually/philosophically/spiritually
Without good soil, a plant will not grow to its fullest potential = Raising children in healthy home/atmosphere.
Wolfs working in packs have advantages in hunting = Structural society with different positions

Its all there. Reality/Nature shows us hints of Absolutes.
No need for subjective standards, when there are key universal ones.

For pleasure. To have a healthy debate with someone such as yourself. To practice thinking and writing. To put my own ideals against the ideals of others to see how they stand. To better myself.

So that's it....your man-made system for bettering one's self is to have healthy debates. But how can you debate Enlightenment if by your remarks your giving the quality that you do not believe in it, think its man made, make believe, no such thing, etc?

This is the crux of the matter here. If you've never found it, and others have, then who's the one at a disadvantage in a debate when on one side, the party has been both: unenlightened at one time in their life, and then enlightened. While the other party has only remained unenlightened.

And what place is that? Where exactly are you looking?

All the cultures have one thing in common, you start by going within, examining, investigating, watching, observing, taking notes. For example, there are tiny gaps between thoughts. Tons of people have found these gaps and have spoke about them. Then further on, you find that the in breath and out breath and intricately linked to thoughts (amount, kind, flavor, etc). Then further on, you gain the ability to lucid dream.

Eventually, you get to a huge crux in self knowledge. Who is it, that is aware of seeing, hearing, breathing, thinking? Logic/Reason will tell you that if you are observing something, then it is the object of observation, and the subject is the observer.

In that case, if you are observing the act of thinking thoughts, then you cannot be both the thinker of thoughts and the Observer who is observing the thinker of thoughts. Hence you go deeper into investigating, examining, observing the observer, the subject itself.......and here is where the breakthrough and beginning of Enlightenment ensues.

Everything I just laid out, has been figured out by Buddha, Christ, Socrates, a multitude of Philosophers, cultures across time, geography, systems of thought, etc. There are too many libraries, monasteries, monks, Enlightened persons to dismiss it as some fad.

Spirituality as a "market place" which sells books, retreats, seminars, etc, is HUGE and growing annually, because people will never find fulfillment and completion in any other place, and so they're turning within.

I believe thinking is a better technique than having someone think for me. How else does one explore what is within? And what do you mean by "within"?

Does enjoying art, a walk in the park, a good song require thinking? I've always been the most peaceful and content when there was no thought.

Is intuition, thinking? Conscious observation of yourself is not thinking, it is observing. You can think all your life all you want, but eventually a person comes along and announces that Enlightenment is beyond and transcends all thought, and yet is a direct experience.

You explore "within" in various ways that do not require thinking. Within = inside of you, mind, heart, intuition, body, consciousness. Do you not have a "within"?

I don't see anything wrong with selling books. But I would wager that it isn't a method of an enlightened being to sell his teachings on the world he wishes to ease the suffering of. That is my only argument in these regards.

Someone who is Enlightened also needs to make a living, eat, pay rent/mortgage, and many times the money is spent on helping others, building communes, foster homes, starting school or prison programs, etc. I know an Enlightened fellow who does retreats, and spends some of the $ from retreats to publish in depth guides, to build a retreat center, to start various programs, educational programs for the homeless, meditation programs for felons, etc.

"Books" have a loooong history of being one of the best methods to reaching humanity.

Aphorism
reply to post by preludefanguy

 

All pursuits are selfish. Each pursuit is fulfilling a personal desire or motivation.

A sage, the Buddha, a guru, a bodhisattva—all names for humans who think a little differently, but humans who think nonetheless.

Sure, adopt an Eastern philosophical language to describe things. I must admit it all sounds very romantic, and if that's the sort of vibe one wishes to give off then please go nuts; but using sanskrit to describe nature when it is not one's actual language, conjuring imagery of men sitting on rocks meditating in peace—what use does this serve? It's Buddhism. It's Brahminism. It's employing systems, stories and imagery invented by men to place where one's own could be.

Buddhism began and died with the Buddha. Christianity began and died with the Christ. Why only do what they say and not as they do? Why not start one's own system of spirituality and thought? All their followers are merely advocates of other men.

Cant think your way out of this one Im afraid.

I simply posed a question. It is not me thinking my way out of it.

I can see where you are coming from. Desire is not selfishness. Selfishness is different than desire. There can be desire to be helpful, even enough so to die for another. Your point of view perhaps is one that is disputing transcendence from human state. Human state desires cooperation as it is natural to cooperate amongst the human species. It is evolutionary. It seems to me that you are saying human is human being. Also, notions such as these are employed by views of separateness. Agents doing what they will for the agents themselves. But there is much more that connects us than just the interactions of agents going about in physical reality. In fact cosmic law/being is cooperative and building in its very nature. Thus diversity and ecosystems are born.

Dharma exists with or without Christ or Buddha. I use these words because there is a rich library one can parse if they need to to understand these things. Why build a new language when one exists that still is intact and helpful? They built them because there was not a wholesome teaching at the time. Anyway T he important thing to see here is that its ALL language. Language is not the thing it is describing. There are many names for the moon.

Did Buddha transcend the human state? If by transcendence you mean ending ones own delusion and attachment causing suffering to arise then yes. Did he poof into a god and become the mighty supreme being capable of all things ? Not exactly, while in human form he still underwent the death experience. But he was no longer fooled and saw the phenomena we encounter here for what it really is. Gained immortality by not identifying with the one who dies. Knowing true self and its unbounded nature. Transcendence of human state in its entirety only happens in moment of death, and if one is prepared and no longer tied to attachment of existence.

a truly awakened one does not rely on scripture or teachings of others. They know truth by experiencing of being truth. Teachings are just helpful tools, word whether from ones own language or not can be helpful to a certain extent. Unfortunately they can also cause much confusion, because language is assimilated and filtered by ones own belief systems. Realization is beyond belief systems, beyond language.

Enlightenment is possible for everybody, but the crowd prevents it. Only a few daring people, courageous of spirit, follow the path into the unknown. They need somebody – at least the footprints of somebody that somebody has gone ahead of them; at least somebody calling from the peaks of consciousness: charaiveti, charaiveti. That was Buddha’s word – keep on coming, keep on coming. Don’t stop.
But the phenomenon is not regular,and cannot be regular. About consciousness, nothing can be mechanical. Everything is spontaneous.
Man’s sleep is such that sometimes it is unbelievable. His unconsciousness is such that one wonders how he can go on being so unconscious. Because of this unconsciousness he suffers all kinds of misery, anxiety, fear, slavery, exploitation. He loses all his dignity, all his humanity. He misses all the joys of life, all the songs and all the dances.
And he goes on doing things which he knows are not right, but he seems to be almost incapable of getting out of the routine. You know anger is not right, you know it is simply torturing yourself for somebody else’s fault. There is no logic in it, and you have suffered so much – but again you will do it.
Unconsciousness is very deep. And consciousness is a very small part, so unless you have great courage to use that small part of consciousness to transform the whole of your unconsciousness, it seems almost impossible to become enlightened.

…..The only thing in life that is unpredictable is enlightenment. Everything is predictable: when you are young you will fall in love, when you’re old, you will die. Almost everything that happens to everybody will happen to you. Enlightenment is the one thing that does not happen to everybody, although everybody is capable – but very few people use the opportunity.
Blessed are those who use the golden opportunity of becoming enlightened, because they prove everybody’s birthright and everybody’s ultimate growth, ultimate flowering.

-from The Hidden Splendour – Osho.

I felt this passage resonates a lot with many of the preceding posts.

I still think there is an element of room for misunderstanding in terms of what the O.P. was questioning.
Enlightenment is not the outcome of becoming. Becoming only enhances the ego (If that’s what you want)
But that is not to say that there isn’t some work involved to bridge the gap between thinking you know and knowing you know. That work though is not a process of enhancement but rather it is a negative effort. That is, a backward flow of awareness rather than a forward one. It is not additional but in a way, subtractive.
It is the result of a certain understanding, which is, “whatever I do has the same result in the long run.”
Lao Tzu, I think talks about a “backward flow” and the character Don Juan in Carlos Castenada’s books teaches “not doing” which produces powerful results.

Meditation isn’t a method for changing oneself; it is for understanding oneself – as one is. Within all the elements of animal nature are primal energies, which when not condemned and unlocked provide more light for insight, which is what enlightenment must be. Light = ability to see, and in insight = looking within at what exists for better or worse.
This is not easy as many nightmares are hidden in the darkness.

reply to post by Golden Rule


yes, this is very true

what is the 'I' that is becoming enlightened? You already are that which is. Ask yourself, what is this I? Keep asking that, keep getting at the root of it to pull it out.

It is indeed a process of uncovering, of not doing, of not being. Even states of samadhi(bliss) are states that arise from phenomena. Pure awareness is not a state, as much as it is the emptiness that fills the different states and gives them breath to be recognized and existent; state of matter, state of sensation arising, state of mental cognition, state of emotional attachment, state of reactionary physical phenomena arising from both the physical and non-physical(mental spheres). These all are not you.

How can YOU be any state of that which does not last? You experience these states because of your ties to these states. The body is a great knot of energy and awareness. All knotted in itself thinking that it is the knot because the normal spheres of awareness get so entangled into the stimulus arising from the different networks of our body/mind system. If you think you are your body, you're in for a trip when you die.

ENLIGHTENMENT IS FOR THE MIND.

There is no such thing as enlightenment when one is free. It is at it is. Enlightenment means the mind must give in, the mind knows it is not real and only temporary. This is what is meant by giving oneself over to god. Over to jesus, to buddha, to higher self. So the mind gives, respires a bliss of 'ahhh!' as it no longer has to be the one doing, worrying, forcing. It was always meant to be a tool to navigate this realm. Awareness settles, the pot of water is no longer boiling with the heat of mind. It is cool, it is clear, all the way down to the bottom. Wisdom is gained, love is only a natural thing that arises from it. The illusion of separate self is dissolved, and one sees self in all.

Categorizing is for the mind. Acceptance is the natural way of true self. acceptance of what is, what always has been, what always will be. It even accepts that you think you are your mind or body! It accepts all, it is non judging, non doing, non being. Love naturally arises. Notions of doing arise from mind. Notions of good and evil arise from the mind. Yes, there are skillful ways to do things and unskillful. What is good for some or one is rarely good for all. Evil arises when the mind thinks for itself as being more important than others, therefore compromising the happiness and well being of others for selfish desires in all forms and spectrum. Skewed belief systems. Natural state arising from pure awareness is equanimity and love. These are still states arising, states born of true self, pure awareness, god. There are different hierarchical systems of information causing the becoming of our realms and other realms, and the different states of being for awareness to inhabit. Life is abundant, sentient consciousness arises and is a state, even in the places that human eyes cannot peer into.

reply to post by preludefanguy


Very tasty.

reply to post by preludefanguy


Very tasty. Enlightenment is for the birds (who leave no footprints in the sky)

all enlightenment is is a few things:

1) understanding they're is a God, and beginning to get to know him and show obedience to him

2) understanding that we're not in a physical universe. It's all just energy. It's all a VR simulation. A projection of our minds in some capacity.

3) we never die. our bodies die but our life force will continue on into the afterlife, into heaven or hell.

Most people start out without any understanding of either of these. They only know hard physical and no god, and no afterlife. All scientific brainwashing. It's sad.

Golden Rule
Enlightenment is for the birds (who leave no footprints in the sky)

Enlightenment is realizing that you are the sky and all apparent things are just beautiful clouds appearing in you.

Enlightenment is not getting something - it is what is here when you stop looking in dark places - somewhere else and some when else is where it cannot be found because you are not there to find it because you are never not here.
The light is here - it is forever appearing as this but no one will seek it here.
It is just a game of all there is looking for more - isn't it crazy?

Itisnowagain

Golden Rule
Enlightenment is for the birds (who leave no footprints in the sky)

Enlightenment is realizing that you are the sky and all apparent things are just beautiful clouds appearing in you.

Even cloud 9?

Golden Rule

Itisnowagain

Golden Rule
Enlightenment is for the birds (who leave no footprints in the sky)

Enlightenment is realizing that you are the sky and all apparent things are just beautiful clouds appearing in you.

Even cloud 9?

Especially cloud 9!

Johnny Nash.

I can see clearly now, the rain is gone,
I can see all obstacles in my way
Gone are the dark clouds that had me blind
It’s gonna be a bright (bright), bright (bright)
Sun-Shiny day.

Aphorism
But I don't think it is true that anyone has found anything out. I mean, how does one realize when he discovers truth? How is he able to compare his own truth with the actual truth? Does God come down and say "yes, you are correct." The simple answer is no.

When the wanting to find stops it is obvious that it has been found.
When the seeking stops the seeker is no more and it is over.
There is no believing in any version of truth anymore because it is obvious.

What is happening is all that is left - it is arising unconditionally.
In a way God does come down and say correct because god is love and when it is all found to be arising unconditionally the love that is always present is felt. What is arising is what completes you but it seems there can be a seeking for other than what is arising which produces feeling of dis satisfaction - it a vicious circle.

Hoping for better is despair. The despair is that really there is nothing you can do because there is no you that can do. It is done. It is being what is.

On really seeing this, existence appears to shift - hell transforms into heaven.

No one can do enlightenment. No one can achieve enlightenment.
The wanting is what keeps it from being seen.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

Hoping for better is despair. The despair is that really there is nothing you can do because there is no you that can do. It is done. It is being what is.

Often we hope for better. Isn't this true? If it is true, then why would we call what is true despair? If being what is includes hoping for the better, then why not be what one is?

Aphorism
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

Hoping for better is despair. The despair is that really there is nothing you can do because there is no you that can do. It is done. It is being what is.

Often we hope for better. Isn't this true? If it is true, then why would we call what is true despair? If being what is includes hoping for the better, then why not be what one is?

Hoping for better is not being satisfied. If that is what is then that is what is - dis satisfaction.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

Hoping for better is not being satisfied. If that is what is then that is what is - dis satisfaction.

That's all fine and dandy. But isn't it true that people hope for better? If it is true, then it is an occurrence of "what is". It seems to me that trying to do without out hope is seeking outside of what is.

reply to post by Aphorism


I like your OP. You make a good point. It seems that people who are not enlightened are much better at easing humanity's suffering during what I perceive as this "transition" phase. S&F.