Why become enlightened?

reply to post by dominicus

Because Authorities in different Specialties exist. If your car is broken, you go to a mechanic. Cavities? You go to a dentist. Sick? You go to a Doctor. You want Enlightenment? You go to someone who already has it to learn. There is nothing wrong with Authorities. I will always acknowledge a specialist and admit they know more than me in their area of study.

Yes, there IS something wrong with Authorities.

Especially if you feel the need to Capitalism the term.

In the context of the above quote I would agree that
there is value in going to an expert for advice, but that
doesn't mean you give up your own authority.

In my view, any so-called "Authority" outside ones self
is by definition a false authority. Having a spiritual guide
or teacher is useful, or can be, but not if you think in
terms of that other person having "authority" of you.

The world is full of Authorities because the world is
full of children. I'm not saying reject all authority,
doing so only make you a perpetual child. What I'm
saying is become a mature adult and stop submitting
to false authority, be a responsible individual, and
relish your Divine Autonomy, that is the only real
Authority with a capital "A".

Passes the time.

wasaka
Time passes regardless. Or does it?

Those who are enlightened report that time itself is an illusion.

Well that's... kinda the joke.

For "time" to "pass" you "become unenlightened" and "move" through "becoming enlightened".

Thus why "becoming enlightened"... but not "being enlightened"... "passes the time".

reply to post by Aphorism

I do not wish to retract my statement because that is not the logical conclusion of my statements. I didn't say no one knows anything. I said that people create what they know. People design cars because cars were invented, not discovered from nature. People know how to build bridges because bridges were invented, not because they were discovered from nature. Creation over discovery every single time. The same goes for spiritual matters.

Spiritual matters, particularly Enlightenment, is based on self discovery. Discovering how you operate, why, source of thought, source of emotion, what makes the lungs breath, who it is that's using the eyes to see ears to hear. Spend a year investigating the source of thought, using a myriad of methods, and you'll discover what hundreds have discovered, and written about, before you.

And where did they find it? And what did they find? Nothing. They created it out of thin air by thinking. I think they call it meditation in spiritual circles.

Its very simple. If you haven't taken up any of the blueprints/maps up for yourself, and tested them, then your opinion is pure assumption/projection. Its like saying things about Hawaii, without ever having stepped foot on the island yourself.

What "they" found is maps of consciousness, source of thought, source of emotion, nature of mind/ego.

I'll tell you what. Close yourself off in a cave for 40 days, and your going to get to know some things about yourself, and about others, that most are not aware of and don't know. Now imagine those who spent decades closed off, investigating the inner realms and leaving blueprints/maps.

Its the same thing as finding out how nature works.

They interpret it and describe it, they create it. That is all they can do.

Any scientists will and can tell you that reality is prior to what we think of it. There is actually a millisecond gap between what actually is, and how we interpret it through our own subjective filters. But reality itself is Objective. So those who work on Enlightenment, unknow all subjectivity and filters, to merge with naked reality.

Surely you are not going to say that we create reality/existence, which existed prior to us even being here.

Concepts, filters and illusions just so happen to be a part of primordial existence. They exist.

The thought of a rock, is a concept. Now put that thought-rock in my hand so I too can feel it, hold it, break a window with it. The thought of a rock is not the same as an actual rock. Any scientist would agree with that statement, and that statement is one of the keys to enlightenment. Thoughts/concepts/filters, are not reality itself.

Except Hawaii is an actual place outside of our minds. Enlightenment cannot be found anywhere but in the imagination of those who call themselves enlightened.

Enlightenment is prior to imagination. There are times in human beings when there is no thought going on. When you train yourself to be thoughtless for longer periods of time, you are still aware, but aware without the filter of thought. Enlightenment has its own built in self defense mechanisms against people arguing that its B.S.

For this specific argument, all "imagination" is let go of and pushed aside in order to reveal Enlightenment which is always prior to imagination.

Enlightenment is an actual reality prior to and also outside of the mind.

Sure people can have experiences of bliss, or comfort or imagine that they are awakening their third eyes and chakras. But how is an interpretation of experience in any way truth?

Experience is truth. Interpretation is the experience of interpreting, and so is also true. Listening to, or in this case, reading an interpretation, is the experience of reading.

Do you experience reality?

Anyone can sell a promise of comfort. Snake-oil salesmen were rampant once upon a time.

There is a fine line of skepticism. IF you have too much, you become hardened and never allow anything. IF you have too little, you can be gullible.

A healthy dose is one which a scientist has when using the scientific method. They with hold all judgement until the experiment is over.

In your case, you are so hardened in too much skepticism, it won't allow you to see for yourself if these things are true. And so all your left with, is assumptions and projections, none of which are true.

Science is an interpretation of events and as a result is conjecture. That is it. Interpretations of events are created by whomever is interpreting.

Science is not all conjectures. There are True facts that can never be reputed. Lungs breath, eyes see, rocks exist, 2+2=4, etc.

Just because you interpret an experience, for the sake of telling someone else about it, does not dismiss the actual experience. If I sat by a tree today during lunch break, that experience happened and at the time was true. My description of it, is past tense and just a symbol of what was. Descriptions and interpretations are not the same as the actual.

There is an actual, an Absolute reality.

2+2=4 never existed until someone came up with 2's and 4's. Anyone with any sort of math experience knows that mathematics is abstract, and thus created in the mind. Math is also conjecture.

Reality is mathematical. Nature uses math and geometry in its design and structure. Math & geometry was always there waiting to be found. Its a Universal language, and this can be proven, because you can use math to make predictions about certain things. Those predictions are to a "T" exact when they eventually are able to test and measure directly what the prediction is.

Reality itself isn't conjecture. It simply Is.....the Isness of it. Anything you add or take away from it, is conjecture.

If enlightenment is merely a state of mind, then why doesn't anyone admit this? State of minds are easy to go in and out of.

I never said "Enlightenment" is a state of mind. I said, the flipside to Enlightenment, is to: "1. Remain in your current state of mind/existence/consciousness and don't test anything, due to assuming its all man-made make believe."

And I have never said that I wasn't a practitioner of spirituality myself. In the end, I see only humanity in our spiritually enlightened ones, and the all too common escapism of an overactive imagination.

I can say the same thing about mechanics, dentists, doctors, surgeons, engineers, actors, singers, "the all too common escapism of an overactive imagination."

Enlightenment is had, when all imagination is let go of. It is a direct knowledge and experience prior to imagination. That's how One knows its not made up by the mind.

reply to post by Aphorism

It's one thing to learn a trade or something useful. It's another to learn how to think, speak and act like someone else. Spiritual teachers only deal in ancient and arbitrary words and concepts.

What you refer to as "ancient and arbitrary words and concepts" are actually timelessly perennial topics that every single human being goes through even today. Why me? Why this life? Why born to these parents? Why suffer? Why do we exist? How can I better my life? Is there anything more?

The very thing that humanity is trying to do, solve the problems of rapes, molesters, greed, corruption, dictators, division, separation, terrorism, suffering, etc..... the answers are all found in what you deem "ancient and arbitrary words and concepts."

And apparently a pedestal and bull-horn to tell everyone about it.

I know a few who have access to Enlightenment, and are content as retirees, house painters, or fiction authors.

On another note, you're telling me that if you found the ultimate personal treasure worth more than anything in this world, and knew you could tell others how to access this, you would remain quiet???

True enough. I hope you too would mention that you could be absolutely wrong. Relative.

Yes, I could be wrong. But then there is the question of odds. There are way too many experiential testimonies, across time, geography, cultures, many of which did not have access to each others messages, all of who write that if you go within, you will find Enlightenment.

I looked, and I found the beginning stages of it. More real than the regular reality I was experiencing. How can I ever deny this then, if I have tasted some of the fruits and have met others who are in it 24/7????

The flip side being people who have not tested this, have not tasted the direct experience of this, and so they either: A. Deny it outright. B. Are open to its possibility but just don't know it yet. C. Are working their own way in to see if it is so.

Its repeatble, just like the Scientific Method is with Objective reality.

Perhaps it is to justify to yourself that you have not completely wasted your time.

Look around at what the world has to offer. I've done most of it, and most of it only keeps you satisfied for X amount of time. Then there those who are saying there is something you can get that will make you completely satisfied and content for the rest of your life. I would sacrifice my whole life then, in search of the greatest gift. Even if I never found it, then it would have been a worthy cause/search.

But I already found big parts of it, have the contentment, peace, happiness from it, and thats not even from Being in it 24/7, yet!!!!

Perhaps your justifying justifications as the causes of why people do what.

If you were to say you were enlightened, and I disagreed with you, would you get so worked up that you absolutely must tell me I am wrong?

There would be a very mutual, respectful. reasonable discussion to show you the folly in that disagreement, as it would ultimately be a assumption/projection from a subjective experience of lack of, and skepticism of Enlightenment. Hence, it would be normal for certain folks to hold that view.

To get "worked up" would be impossible, because there is Awareness of the ego/mind and its reactions, 24/7, and there is no attaching to any of that.

The very fact that you reply to doubters proves quite easily that ego is at work here. The ego doesn't want to be thought of as a liar, or worse, ignorant.

There is a part of the ego, (discrimination/memory of words/logic) to be able to make legible sentences for conversation. But the difference is, there is a clear seeing, that this "Ego" is not me. There is a distance from it and knowing the source of thought.

All of this is being explained because of Love and compassion for others. It may just be that my explanations is what "clicks" with you, allowing you to set aside hard core skepticism, and see for yourself if Enlightenment is true. There is no bother on my part, if after all this time spent on you, the hard lined skepticism remains and I have wasted my time.

Well, personally I see those who claimed they are enlightened as lower on a social scale, because they deal in practically nothing but self-satiation.

Too bad, because Unenlightenment is the cause of the worlds ills. Its like operating at a 5-8. While Enlightenment, the answer/cure to all the worlds ills, is like operating at close to a 100.

Social scale is upside down anyway. The world values LAdy Gaga, Miley Cyrus, Noble Peace prices are bought and sold, Putin prevented WW III, Materialism, sex with hot women, a trophy wife, a fast car is what talks.....and everything else is considered lower.

But Enlightenment is the next evolutionary step anyway, because more access of the whole brain is had in Enlightenment as seen in MRI's of Buddhist Monks. All of existence comes from the Absolute, and to the Absolute we all return. Its inevitable.

A doctor at least deals with real problems. They alleviate more suffering than an enlightened one ever could. Doctors are of actual use.

Doctors many times simply ease the pain, but can't cure the cancer.

An Enlightened Being goes directly to the crux of the matter through psychology, experience, knowledge, and many other factors that a doctor cant ever touch.

And you seem to assume and project a lot of things.

I've checked, tested, vetted, and found certain things to be true, the cure to all existential/emotional/psychological/spiritual ills. And so I share it with others how to access this, and tell people, to see for yourself whats there.

You haven't checked, tested, vetted, and found certain things to be true. And so there are many assumptions and projections on your part.

Show me where mine are. Because then that would mean I have said something to be a certain way, without having experienced whether its true or not. And I will not assume or project about things I have not personally checked, tested, vetted.

Also, I have post on a very rapid quick method to Enlightenment (beginning stages of) within 15-30 days. Why don't you give it a genuine "Go" and see what you find?

reply to post by Aphorism

Why become enlightened? That's like asking can the sun become bright. But you say you are not enlightened? Oh, YOU ARE!

reply to post by Aphorism


This is a little long, please read it in the entirety.
There are something the outside world would never know, Buddha regularly OD'ed on marijuana (ganja).

There were enlightened souls before Buddha, but he created an industry out of it. This led to mass civil unrest, and disorder, the ruling class started loosing control over people, basic lawless ness every where, and servants refused to work, saying there is nothing more to life, the main reason of life is to be happy, I will just smoke Ganja, and be happy. There were mass uprising, or rather civil disobedience, people were less greedy, they worked less, they only took what they wanted, and left the rest. The value of Gold started decreasing, ruling class lost their servants, and their life were in misery (only that of ruling class).

Now, there is nothing wrong in what happened, but the ruling classes and other sages (saints), could not understand what was happening, they all believed if there is no order, there will be anarchy.

Now CRIME is different, and LAWLESS ness is different, if everyone is happy, we don't need laws, we don't need army or police, or even a constitution. When everyone is happy, there is no crime, there is no need for laws, people stop cheating, and start sharing everything.


There is a great tool that stops the mind from getting enlightened, that is the belief that we are different from our creator, that our creator is supreme and different from us, and we are moulded to fear our creator. When this belief system is in place and imbibed deeply into our brain, we stop making the necessary neuron connections that make enlightenment feasible. This propaganda mechanism is also called Dvaitam. It was a necessity to push the world into the fourth zone, where the percentage of enlightened souls cannot be more than 0.1%.

That is the main reason, why many Gods were created after the 200BC time frame. The need for God, Idol worship, the need for a creating a creator, arose primarily for control of societies, the minimum requirement for a ruling class to be established is 50 families, if less than 50 families stay in a region,
the necessity of having a law system fails. Moreover when people were enlightened, they were sharing families and responsibilities, it was more of a group, helping out each other, without the need of laws and without the feeling or necessity to feel superior to anyone. So there were no heads in the group.

There were discussions, more research work, more artistic work done in the time frame. People were only doing, what they liked. And each one had a natural inclination towards a single kind or type of work. They had lots of time, and became masters in their realms, and since everyones time were valued similarly, there was no rich or poor in the group. Everyone were equals.

Each breath we take, is because of selfishness, everything we do is for selfishness, even seeking enlightenment is for selfishness.

There is a shortcut to the feeling of enlightment (not actual), meditate to get some control of your mind (at least 10 hrs within a week), then OD on marijuana, keeping your mind still. And get an out of body experience.

Enligthment is not the same for everyone, each path is different, each experience is different.

And FINALLY to answer your most important question, should we get enlightened …
It is very rare, that you can find enlightened souls marketing themselves, saying to everyone, I am spiritual, I got enlightened. You need to seek them out, most of them would not have any material inclination, and also don't seek attention. The ones you see heading spiritual groups are fakes. If you take them
as guru, you would never get enlightened.
You need to experience enlightment, and even after enlightenment you have a choice to lead your normal life, or be branded as one fit for a mental asylum, because you no longer fit the society, remember our society is socially engineered, so that it is not in touch with any enlightened souls. Also, the society thinks and believes that the attention seeking fakes are the real enlightened ones, and are misguided by them. So the net population of enlightened souls are always outcasts of the main society.

There is more I can write and explain, but it will start boring the uninitiated.

Seek and Get what you want, then choose if you need to have it or let it go.

reply to post by diabloman

/namasalute

Round and round we go...

Where we stop...

We already know...

All Stars in our own show!

Perhaps the answer is to no longer ask such trivial questions?

reply to post by dominicus


I don't have the time to respond to your entire post, so I will do the common cherry-pick and move on technique. If you wish me to touch on a point that I may have skipped, please let me know.

Spiritual matters, particularly Enlightenment, is based on self discovery. Discovering how you operate, why, source of thought, source of emotion, what makes the lungs breath, who it is that's using the eyes to see ears to hear. Spend a year investigating the source of thought, using a myriad of methods, and you'll discover what hundreds have discovered, and written about, before you.

That's just it, and is indeed the reason that I post this. I have "discovered" myself and spent many years doing so. Except my conclusions are almost entirely different.

I'll tell you what. Close yourself off in a cave for 40 days, and your going to get to know some things about yourself, and about others, that most are not aware of and don't know. Now imagine those who spent decades closed off, investigating the inner realms and leaving blueprints/maps.

I understand what you're saying. But by "investigating the inner realms" I would hope that you mean thinking. Yes if someone thinks for a long period of time, they will be able to imagine some interesting things. The are not really exploring anything other than themselves thinking.

The thought of a rock, is a concept. Now put that thought-rock in my hand so I too can feel it, hold it, break a window with it. The thought of a rock is not the same as an actual rock. Any scientist would agree with that statement, and that statement is one of the keys to enlightenment. Thoughts/concepts/filters, are not reality itself.

What I said was thoughts and concepts are natural occurrences that exist. No, what we think about isn't real. That is quite obvious. When I think of a rock there is no actual rock there. But the thinking process that is employed by the human body is real and primordial.

Maybe we should apply the "thoughts are not reality" concept to that of enlightenment, since all it is is a concept. Can you hold enlightenment in your hand?

Enlightenment is prior to imagination. There are times in human beings when there is no thought going on. When you train yourself to be thoughtless for longer periods of time, you are still aware, but aware without the filter of thought. Enlightenment has its own built in self defense mechanisms against people arguing that its B.S.

When they are in a coma, unconscious, brain injured or dead, it can be argued there are no thoughts either. Usually people don't seek this out. It seems very strange that one would limit the power of thought. It's like if I stopped eating because my stomach is prior to food. It makes absolutely no sense. Enlightenment has nothing to defend.

Reality is mathematical. Nature uses math and geometry in its design and structure. Math & geometry was always there waiting to be found.

Show me one perfect circle in nature. Show me one straight geometric line in nature. Find me a triangle. Find me any number anywhere. Math is inspired by nature, not the other way around.

In your case, you are so hardened in too much skepticism, it won't allow you to see for yourself if these things are true. And so all your left with, is assumptions and projections, none of which are true.

Have you met me? How well do you know me? Do you know my history? It seems I am not the only one assuming and projecting. But don't worry, we all do it, apparently even the enlightened ones. I just wrote a thread about this actually.

Beware those that speak in the second-person narrative

Yes, I could be wrong. But then there is the question of odds. There are way too many experiential testimonies, across time, geography, cultures, many of which did not have access to each others messages, all of who write that if you go within, you will find Enlightenment.

Yes there are a few claims to enlightenment, but there are billions upon billions who have never claimed they were enlightened. The odds are insurmountable.

reply to post by Aphorism


Is this life all there is? Why am I here? I believe that most people who have come to experience enlightenment, that one truly powerful "aha" moment, have been looking for more than what they have been taught to believe. Rather than base life off the words of others they have decided to experience things on thier own and form thier own beliefs. So much of what is taught is empty, there has to be a reason for the struggle of life. People eventually want to know why things are the way they currently are.

A quest for power is simply a quest for power. A quest for understanding, which is enlightenment.... is the desire to make sense of it all which, imo, is driven by a need to end suffering.

then again, some just like looking all smart.

Enlightenment can go many different ways. Now a days it seems like it going to be an upper class motif that going to go with intelligence, like the Victorian Era, which was said to be an age of enlightenment . Probably, cause they weren't killing people left, right, and center, like the Dark Ages before hand. Although they were vain in a lot of ways, since they wore make up, and very bad for pore skin make up too.

Science is enlightening, Nature is enlightening, and even expressing your self is enlightening. And I think this were wisdom comes into the act, since it is a combination of knowledge, experience, as well as application of ones own two hands and mind in the real world.


I think it just really comes down to the intention of a person.

There are 2 sides, Love of Power and Power of Love. The Power of Love is about progressing, seeing through the world, helping others, overcoming all impulses in the beast/body to harm others or be selfish, and all anger/reaction issues, domination predator issues.

That journey is the journey to enlightenment and higher mind. The dark side have their own codes about it and use substances to force third eye awareness, some do bad things and then seek HS and God's forgiveness, for Goodness always forgives and use that revolving door in a kind of cheating method, but they don't realize that they're not off the hook and its all been taken into account.

So I'll restrict this term enlightenment only to the Power of Love and soul progression, for the abuse of school and trying to cheat and re-code things and using spells in words and in fine print and multidimensional geometery falls short of the true Higher Goodness and their advancement far beyond anything even the biggest demiurges or entities in all the duality zones can do. So their efforts are akin to an anthill dark spell.

For the one seeking to wake up and do the work they came to do and refine their soul to goodness, for Infinite Consciousness is always learning, growing its awareness and Love/Attributes and Wisdom and Perfecting, though in No Time/Infinity, its all at once and all Refined, and in part still journeying as we are.

The reason to seek enlightgenment, ascension, waking up, soul growth, Becoming your Higher Self, is to be FREE OF KARMA AND ALL THEIR FINE PRINT, for one thing. Its to be free of Darth Vaders soul traps and recycling of souls which is the second death. And its to really help other people for many came in to try and help family out. And thats all that counts. If a meteor lands on your head like a friend's dream, and you end up in the New and Progressed Eutopia earth and heavens, and you can see down all the suffering people, you'd do what he did, give up heaven and ask to enter into the hellzone just to help everyone. Give up heaven, to enter into hell to try and help your family because you Love Them Infinitely.

reply to post by Aphorism

That's just it, and is indeed the reason that I post this. I have "discovered" myself and spent many years doing so. Except my conclusions are almost entirely different.

There are different forms and styles of discovering self. Some people take some time off work, travel, drink & eat alot, try new things, sleep around, and eventually discover, "Wow, I really like sushi, brunettes, and Europe."

As opposed to going deeply within, disciplining and detaching from ego, mastering one pointed concentrations, and discovering Enlightenment within.

With the latter part, without some sort of rough maps/blueprints, then you can end up like fellow I know, who spent 40 years meditating using one trendy TM Technique fro 60's-70's, and he still has yet discover Enlightenment.

If you don't have certain keys, you will never unlock the door.

I understand what you're saying. But by "investigating the inner realms" I would hope that you mean thinking. Yes if someone thinks for a long period of time, they will be able to imagine some interesting things. The are not really exploring anything other than themselves thinking.

You do know that there is more to the mind than thinking right? And that in one way to Enlightenment, thinking is entirely suspended.

Perhaps study some psychology, because there is a HUGE difference (apples & oranges) between being consciously aware, and thinking. Every expert will tell you, there is more than thinking going on

What I said was thoughts and concepts are natural occurrences that exist. No, what we think about isn't real. That is quite obvious. When I think of a rock there is no actual rock there. But the thinking process that is employed by the human body is real and primordial.

When you were Born, you were aware, but were not thinking. So what is primordial, thought or awareness?

Also, of the conscious thinking mind that you are aware of, there is a VAST subconscious. Have you entered into that yet and see whats there, traveling down into the source of the Subconscious?

Maybe we should apply the "thoughts are not reality" concept to that of enlightenment, since all it is is a concept. Can you hold enlightenment in your hand?

The thought of a rock is different then Enlightenment, because Enlightenment does not require thinking, and is prior to thinking. So your argument here is void.

Do you experience existence? Yes? Then there are people who experience Enlightenment as well.

When they are in a coma, unconscious, brain injured or dead, it can be argued there are no thoughts either. Usually people don't seek this out. It seems very strange that one would limit the power of thought. It's like if I stopped eating because my stomach is prior to food. It makes absolutely no sense. Enlightenment has nothing to defend.

You are not comprehending what I am saying. Eyes are prior to seeing, ears prior to hearing, stomach prior to food. Without any of those formers, you cannot possible have the latter. So too, every individuals prior state of Beingness/Reality/Existence is an Absolute Reality that we are all inherently merged/One with. Very few uncover this.

Also recent studies you can search on the net, is revealing that many of those in a Coma, are still aware, based on new MRI findings.

Show me one perfect circle in nature. Show me one straight geometric line in nature. Find me a triangle. Find me any number anywhere. Math is inspired by nature, not the other way around.

15 Uncanny Examples of the Golden Ratio in Nature -
Link

Da Vinci used the Golden Ration in his art, giving his works uncanny realism and is consider one of the top masters of art. It's not hard to go into nature and start to notice patters, geometry, and math, all of which is/was/can be derived from nature itself

Have you met me? How well do you know me? Do you know my history? It seems I am not the only one assuming and projecting. But don't worry, we all do it, apparently even the enlightened ones. I just wrote a thread about this actually.

If it were not so (hardened skepticism) then you would not be on an attack against the possibility of Enlightenment. For the last 5 years, I've been going once a month to a Philosophy Club, where there are scholars, professors, lawyers, armchair philosophers, atheists, etc. Whenever Enlightenment is struck up, 100% of the time, those who were against those notions, eventually admitted hard lined skepticism as the cause of being against.

Yet, in discussing and admitting that those who were particularly "against" Enlightenment," never not once did they look to see themselves if it exists, therefore their own "against" views, were assumptions/projections from a place of ignorance/unknowing, resulting eventually in an admittance and change of view from "against" to "I do not know".

That's what were supposed to do. Question the reason for being against,/neutral/for.

In your case, your now showing me another thread you've started that is against anything or anyone claiming Enlightenment, yes? So there is a reason for your view. Either butt hurt and jealous. Hard lined skepticism. Or maybe some other reason for your view. But I'll bet money, from experience with specifically this topic, that you harbor an excessive amount of skepticism. Is it not so?

Yes there are a few claims to enlightenment, but there are billions upon billions who have never claimed they were enlightened. The odds are insurmountable.

There are millions of Babies who do not have the ability to think, yet. There are billions who have never been to the U.S.. There are billions that have never been to ATS.

You've twisted my point into completely something else. My point was, that there are no people (few claims) across cultures and times that are saying that if you meditate a certain way, you will eventually come across pink elephants, white unicorns, purple hearts, green clovers, and blue diamonds in the sky.

But you do come across claims of Enlightenment, with a certain consensus, universalities, commonalities, and a high percentage of cross cultures are in agreement about what it is and what the experience is about.

Your "insurmountable odds" mean nothing, because by human nature and the state of humanity, very few people take up the task to go and see for themselves. Just like there are very few people in the world that are antique watch masters trained in the best school in Switzerland, yet they exist.

All it takes is One person to make a discovery of Truth. The rest ca be in denial all they want, but it does not take away from what that One person found.

Will you take up the 15-30 day method I have posted in the Philosophy Thread and see for yourself? Or will you continue to argue from a state of never having seen for yourself if its real?

I have never been to Hawaii and am not well versed in politics, so you never see me in the politics or hawaii threads on ATS. Perhaps its advice to be heeded?

wasaka

Huggiesunrise
The only true result of enlightenment is the end of ones suffering.

Nothing more.

The suffering doesn't end, only the self-inflicted pain.

The shift happens when we are willing to suffer and
stop resisting that which is beyond our control.

Happiness may come and go, but Joy is an ever present reality.
Those who have not attained a measure of enlightenment don't
know this because their self-inflicted pain gets in the way.

What isn't self inflicted pain?

Enlightenment is the natural state of the mind. It is not much of a fancy phenoemenon. It is like getting back to our defaults after being accustomed to societal conditioning for millenia. When we shed our conditioning, our mind becomes still. A clouded mind cannot live life to its fullest.

There are some who deny that there is such a thing as enlightenment. How do they know? Aren´t they in the grasp of conditioning? Besides, enlightenment cannot be ´achieved´. It can only be realised. Thats how a Siddartha became a Buddha.

reply to post by radkrish

There are some who deny that there is such a thing as enlightenment. How do they know? Aren´t they in the grasp of conditioning? Besides, enlightenment cannot be ´achieved´. It can only be realised. Thats how a Siddartha became a Buddha.

That's it right there!!!!!!!!!!!!

My whole point to the OP in a nutshell.

Huggiesunrise

wasaka

Huggiesunrise
The only true result of enlightenment is the end of ones suffering.

Nothing more.

The suffering doesn't end, only the self-inflicted pain.

The shift happens when we are willing to suffer and
stop resisting that which is beyond our control.

Happiness may come and go, but Joy is an ever present reality.
Those who have not attained a measure of enlightenment don't
know this because their self-inflicted pain gets in the way.

What isn't self inflicted pain?

Physical pain may not be self-inflicted, but most emotional pain is.

People often glibly dismiss Buddhism as soon as they hear that word "suffering" and so I like to use the term "self-inflicted pain" as an alternative. And yet words like "discontent" and "stressful" are far from adequate. In order for the meaning of dukkha to unfold, one must embrace it rather than replace it. The historical Buddha once summarized his own teachings this way: "Both formerly and now, it is only dukkha that I describe, and the cessation of dukkha." One would be well served to add this word to their vocabulary and throw out whatever English word it is standing in for it.

In a nutshell, Buddha’s message to us is this: If one is sensitive to the effect clinging has, it will become comparable to holding a hot coal in their hand. It then becomes quite natural to drop it because you realize as you cling to the coal you are hurting yourself. In the same way, resistance to thought forms and being attached to outcome can be stressful. When you release yourself from clinging, your release yourself from needless anguish. When you let go of desire, you no longer want peace—to have it.

However, not all suffering needs to be avoided. Actually, the "trick" to overcoming our self-inflicted pain is to face it. Indeed, when we avoid suffering, this protective act can cause more suffering in ourselves and others. The Four Nobel Truths should be studied and understood in their traditional form, however, it doesn't hurt to rephrase what Buddha was really trying to communicate. What is it we most need to understand? Can the same message be delivered more succinctly? Can it be distilled down to its bare essentials or made clearer by using different words?

Here is one attempt to do just that:

1. In life we experience many struggles
2. Various forms of suffering arise from that struggle
3. Our suffering ceases when the struggle ceases

Buddha was teaching this very simple and subtle truth: if you are clinging and it hurts, then let go. Open up your hand and let the burning coal fall away, open up your heart and find your bliss. In addition to this practical advice, Buddha also said that to be concerned about "ultimate truth" detracts from this goal. Indeed, Buddha’s teaching is so pragmatic that is seems almost radical to most religious people. That is because they, more than most, cling to notions of ultimate truth as if their very identity depended on it—and perhaps it does.

In the earliest Buddhist text, there is no mention of transcendent experiences. There is no distinction between the conditioned realm (samsara) and the unconditioned realm (nirvia) which is taught today. What we do to find is a description of a sage, someone who is focused on finding peace in this life and is not concerned about transcended experiences or so-called ultimate truth. The way of the sage is both skillful and wise; they are open to all religious teaching, but clinging to none. When a sage encounters a religious teaching they take a posture of non-attachment and non-resistance. They might say, “Is that so? Tell me more?” However, in their openness they remain well-disciplined in the spiritual practice of non-clinging.

The way of the sage is the path of peace.

Those who are interesting in future worlds, past lives, or the afterlife are not confining themselves to the domain of a sage. Such people are not following the example set by Buddha, for he taught what one should do (in this world and at this present moment) to experience peace. The tendency we have to debate our views on a variety of subjects only takes us further way from this goal and leads us toward the pitfall of anguish, isolation, and self-inflicted pain.

The fact is anyone can experience peace. It is not a metaphysical or religious goal. This was not some other-worldly or supernatural thing that Buddha was teaching people to aim for, nor was it some mystery school or attainment ritual for the select elite. Peace means liberty from suffering. This is the simple peace we all know, the everyday variety, not some mystical experience that is hard to arrive at or that would required years of practice, solitude and a monastic lifestyle. The core of Buddha’s doctrine was serenity—serenity in the ordinary and everyday sense of the word.

The sage has abandoned illusions, is unconcerned with ultimate truth, and has shaken off every view, ideology or belief. The sage is unattached to sensual pleasure and has laid down the burden of seeking a cause to champion, a movement to join, or a purpose to support or defend. Such experiences are necessary to our spiritual growth, but in moving past this stage the wise person doesn't look back. The sage has no need to relearn the lessons taught by institutional religion or political activism, and while they may have once hold a strong appeal, the do so no more.

The sage gives his attention to being. This means being aware of their environment and to being mindful of their own relationship to that environment. It is about do what is right, not in the moral sense, but in the skillful sense—as in using the right tool for the job. In this way a sage is righteousness, or careful to have right relationships and right livelihood. It is not easy—but it is simple. It is about truth and being real. Not clinging to some idea of truth but getting rid of those things that get in the way. The choices are difficult, the path may be arduous, but goal is straightforward—avoid clinging and stop craving validation.

wasaka

The sage gives his attention to being..... The choices are difficult,
the path may be arduous, but goal is straightforward—avoid clinging
and stop craving validation.

The key to wisdom is awareness. Before we can overcome the various human struggles, one must look and see what these difficulties really are. Most people learn their lessons the hard-way, and therefore seeing these difficulties, and their true source, can take years. Life experience is required. Often it is not until a person reaches their forties that awakening takes place. This liberation is a beautiful thing but seldom experienced as one euphoric moment, rather it is the unfolding of many euphoric moments over an indefinable span of time. These “awe” moments often relate to unlearning a meme or letting go of some attachment that held us in dukkha for a very long time.

Having the compassion to see the human struggle brings insight and understanding, but the sage is also detached from the world of illusion—that is, while they have compassion they are also conditioned to rise above the emoting of their body and operate at a higher level of consciousness. By means of observation, the sage takes a naked view of the human problem and knows its modus operandi. Rather than try to live up to some ideal, the sage sees clearly and directly what interferes with the ideal and avoids the pitfall by side-stepping the struggle and accepting reality for what it is. In their meekness, there is no sentimental weakness.

By seeing and knowing directly what causes suffering, one can let go. If one experiences directly what if feels like to hold a hold coal, then one can naturally release their grasp and drop that self-inflicted pain. For example, when one can see directly the difficulty of holding on to conceit, how “grasping” produces pain, then you are more likely to let go of it. If, however, one does not see the pain of conceit, then it can seem like pretty good thing to hold-on to and even value. Parents often teach their children to be proud, and on one level this is a good thing, but very often it leads to being proud of their pride, and such vanity leads to calamity. Adulthood is about putting away such childishness.

At root of vanity is an unacknowledged lack of self-esteem and an unseen need for validation. Most people are not aware of how strong this basic human need is or how it operates in their lives. A person can form a strong negative opinion of another person they don’t know well or just met because that other person doesn’t give them the validation they need. As a result an instant dislike can lead to visceral hatred. It may start with the person doing something you feel that they should not do, but it is what they failed to do—namely, provide the validation you need—that is the real source of hostility. Like conceit, most people do not see how this craving for validation affects their relationships.

By seeing and knowing directly what causes suffering, the seer is wise. The second thing that the wise person sees and knows is peace itself. The sage sees and knows peace, and they know that peace is realized through not clinging. It is the seeing and knowing peace that can help a person to avoid conflicts and disputes. It is this non-attachment, which guilds the wise in difficult situations and with difficult people. If the person who aspires to be a sage knows that they themselves are difficult, impatient, easily annoyed, or quick to anger, then seeing and knowing this is the first step toward their liberation.

In this way a sage become independent in the dharma. This is a very important term in Buddhism. If the primary aim is peace, then strategic objective is to become independent in the dharma. This is the stepping stone or gateway way by which one gains and sustains peaceful attunement. It means you reach a point where you no longer depend on anyone else teachings or anyone else’s help and support. You know the dharma, you know the teachings, you know the practice through and through. Not from reading a book, but from practical experience. You know the physiological forces at play that cause people to suffer and you know the alternative, not in theory but in practice. Being independent in the dharma mean you know the dharma and are therefore equipped to make it known.

Finally, the sage values peace above all else. Why? Because they have experienced it. For this reason, they know those things that would compromise their peace are much less satisfying. As a result, such things no longer hold the alluring quality or entertainment value that they once did. This is not some moral value imposed by an external religious authority that one feels obligated to uphold rather it is a peace that comes from within, symbolized by an open hand. Peace is being who you are, who you were meant to be—without delusions, without the need for external authority.

If the goal is to be generous you start by practicing generosity, or if the goal is to be compassionate then you start by practicing compassion. When one sets out to practice peace, they may not be successful right away, but we are not talking about something that is unattainable or far in the distance. We are talking about a gradual process that anyone can do, and over time those who apply themselves to the task will attain skill, insight, and wisdom as they achieve greater and greater measures of success. When a person consistently makes the effort to move toward greater calm and equanimity the reward of wisdom and understanding will naturally follow. This is the process of enlightenment.

Dharma is not a "something" to believe (as a doctrine is, or like some fine-point of theology would be), on the contrary, it would be more accurate to say the dharma is what "something" is not. In other words, dharma is "the NOTHING" that remains when "the SOMETHING" has been removed. Stated another way, dharma is the spiritual truth that remains when all the false-authority and delusions (like vanity and conceit) are removed.

Why become enlightened?

Enlightenment as I hear the mystics sing it, is not the outcome of the process of becoming.

"Why" entails reasons. Reasons imply fors and againsts.

Becoming is a process which creates (psychological) time. Timelessness does not eventuate out of a process of time consciousness.

Whatever enlightenment is is only realized as a consequence of frustration with the process of becoming.

"Why" is a justification of choice. Whatever enlightenment is is not the outcome of choice. This is why Buddha's disciples appeared as beggars, because beggars can't be choosers.

If some people become misguided or confused and seek a state of "enlightenment" in an effort to increase their sense of self esteem, or to gain respect or praise from others or even as an attempt to acquire personal power, would that be so strange? This is what all creatures are pursuing in some way or another.

As soon as these same efforts are made in the name of "enlightenment" and not in the name of wealth, or sexuality or politics or social altruism of some sort then the hackles of indignation are raised. Why? "You think yer better than everyone else dontcha?"

The real taboo at work here is the taboo of breaking away from the collective of the species. The indignation and sanctions against its possibility is a kind of protection mechanism. It is taken so seriously that societies have imprisoned and executed such rebellion.

Brave New World or 1984 are basically stories concerning an imprisonment in the human condition - being unable to transcend the human condition - each human standing guard over his neighbour, watching, listening for clues, ears peeled for a give away phrase which betrays an unfaithfulness to the human condition as being the be all and end all reality.

Thus the human condition as the ultimate and only reality justifies war and its mass murder of the young and innocent. Why not, after all, man is the ultimate predator who says things like, "I'll rip off your head and sh** in your neck." This kind of tough talk is revered in a way. A criminal murderer such as Chopper Read dies and he makes the pages of ATS. I didn't read one word of sanction. Instead, a kind of respect.

Jesus? He didn't really exist, he was just a mythological character. Has to be, right?

But whether a myth or a real person, there is one very believable part of the story - When the crowd was asked as part of a deal, who they wanted released from execution, Jesus or the convicted mass-murderer Barrabas, they shouted as one: "Barrabas, Barrabas!"