Roadmap or Road to Nowhere?

This to me seems like the silliest agreement since UN RESOLUTION 1441 when 15 countries voted for a resolution when no one understood it's implications.

What is the point?It is a cop out that resolves nothing and is only politically expedient to various interests.

The Palestinians have no choice but to be seen to actively be involved and the absence of atleast an outline for a Palestinian state will not stop terrorism.

The Israelis have no intention of implicating the roadmap and see it only as a bargaining position.They are busy building a wall that at present is snaking toward Jerusalem which will create facts on the ground.

The USA aren't willing to expend political capital on a process that would lose any President domestic votes.

The UK hides behind this farcical plan and hails it a victory.Even though it can not work.

Europe is nutured and daren't criticise.

Russia isn't really interested.

Can someone please tell me what the point is.
It is a formula that will only end in recriminations which will eclipse the temporary feelgood factor of the Roadmaps publication.

If I can see it is hopeless,then the politicians must be able to see.
If I can see it will end up as a bigger,perhaps worldwide,problem,then they must.

What is going on????



[Edited on 19-5-2003 by John bull 1]

"It is a cop out that resolves nothing and is only politically expedient to various interests."

In a nutshell J-B.

Thank heavens one can always count on the timing of the suicide bombers.

The modern art of mass-politics is always to APPEAR to be doing something.
Whether anything is actually done is fast becoming irrelevant.

And the regional bad guy is....Syria!
Or was that last week.

Reports coming in of another suicide bombing in Israel.

from the BBC:

"An explosion triggered by a suicide bomber has rocked a shopping mall in the northern Israel town of Afula, Israeli police say.

Unconfirmed reports say several people were killed.

Emergency workers quoted by the Israeli daily Haaretz said 10 people were injured in the blast in the Emakim mall.

Afula has seen several similar bombings in the past.

The latest attack comes a day after seven passengers were killed by a suicide bomber on a bus in Jerusalem.

Israel sealed its border with the West Bank and Gaza Strip following that attack."

What's that flying away in the distance..oh yeah. It's the peace plan.

It was nothing but lip service anyway. Just some spin to make it seem that they were actually concerned about the one problem the whole world is up in arms about.

'Yes, yes, we are concerned. Now, if you would care to look over there while I chib you with this cosh.
Thank you.'





[Edited on 19-5-2003 by kegs]

The suicide bombs play into the Israelis hands. They can use it as an excuse to stay away from the talks and when they do come to the table it will make it look like they have made a huge concession. They're not quite ready for peace at the moment. I believe that they still have work to do before they can sit at the peace table with a strong poker hand. Everything that they are doing at the moment gives them more room for manouvre when they put the plan into process and it weakens the Palestinian hand.

But I believe that the plan WILL be implemented. Western governments have too much to lose if Israel walks away from the table.
Israel is working to a timescale. It's in it's own interests to eventually make peace - just don't expect it to make that peace easy for the opposition to obtain. There's no point in having a peace if the opposition is going to come out of it in a better position than you are.

"Can someone please tell me what the point is"

Sure, it's simple....

Why put off tomorrow, what you can put off today!

They're simply procrastinating...hoping that a problem that's existed all this time...will be handled by the next guy who gets the job, and the next guy, and so on....

I've totally lost any sympathy for the Palestinians... They could have had an independent state years ago, but they sabataged their own peace repeatedly. Quite frankly, they wouldn't know what to do with their own state if it were handed to them.... Not that Isreal has been acting like a prince either...but they've been far more tolerant than I would have been... I remember the first day I heard "Arafat" and "politician" in the same sentence... I truly thought I was in an episode of the "Twilight Zone" or "Candid Camera"....

Gazrok - That really is quite unfair you know. The Camp David settlement meant that all of the little Jewish outposts scattered across the West Bank would remain, there were serious issues which the Palestinians weren't totally happy about in the plan. They went away to think about it, and when they came back Sharon was in power and there was no more talking.

The Palestinian side is slightly different to the Israeli side. The Israeli army operates because of what the Israeli politicians tell it to do. The Palestinian terrorists are not affiliated with the Palestinian politicians. So it's perfectly possible for the Palestinian prime minister to agree wholeheartedly with the roadmap, but for the head of Hamas to disagree wholeheartedly, and so suicide bombings continue.

The Israelis have as much to answer for as the Palestinians, without their heavy handed treatment of the Palestinian people there would be no basic support for Hamas and the PLO. It's because of Israeli policies that the Palestinian terrorists get so much popular support. What is the way out from here? I don't know. But one thing I do know... Sharon doesn't want the roadplan, and it seems increasingly obvious that some Palestinian terrorist groups don't want it either, but the Palestinian prime minister does (as does Arafat).

Originally posted by dom

Sharon doesn't want the roadplan, and it seems increasingly obvious that some Palestinian terrorist groups don't want it either, but the Palestinian prime minister does (as does Arafat).

Sharron wants the roadmap but he wants it on his terms. He wants to be in control of the peace process as whoever has the most control will come out the other side the stronger party. Any deals now will weaken his hand, he needs to get more chips to bargain with and that seems to be exactly what he's doing.

I strongly disagree with your point that Arafat wants peace. He stood in the way of getting the new Palestinian cabinet up and running so that they could start reaching a deal. His whole career has been one of manipulating his people through violence to achieve his own personal ambitions. He is not a clever man but a greedy man. The sooner Arafat is dead or impotent - the better.
The only reason that the Israelis have kept him alive is because he shows the rest of the world the true face of arab terrorism.

That's definitely how he's portrayed in the media right now. But if you look back 4 years you'll see a different picture of him. I'm sure a lot of the demonising of Arafat comes about for two reasons;

a) He didn't accept all US/Israeli demands at Camp David and so embaressed Mr Clinton.

b) Sharon and Arafat have a deep dark history that goes back a long way (look on google), and Sharon is absolutely not going to have anything to do with him.

"They could have had an independent state years ago,"
when precisely, Gazrok?

"The Palestinian terrorists are not affiliated with the Palestinian politicians"

Uhm... I'm a child of the 80's. Arafat was synonymous with terrorism while I was growing up. With rather flagrant ties to various terrorist groups, calling him a politician is a gross courtesy.... Every time they even get within a stone's throw of peace, they decide to blow up a bus or a cafe'... bah....

You're not maintaining the distinction Gazrok. Arafat turned away from violence and followed the peaceful path. Many leaders have done the same including Gerry Adams, Martin Mcguiness, and a number of Israeli prime ministers who carried out terrorist attacks against the British between 45 and 48.

People can change, and I think that in the 90s Arafat was seen as a person who had become a politician rather than a terrorist. Maybe not a model democratic politician, but at least someone who was keen on solving problems at a table rather than at the end of a gun.

Your last sentence "Every time they even get within a stone's throw of peace, they decide to blow up a bus or a cafe'... bah...." is exactly what my quote is talking about. There are militant Palestinian groups who want to see the end of Israel, full stop, but there are also people who would like to see peace with Israel and a two-state solution. These are distinct groups, and you've got to hope that by dealing with the peaceful group, support will be eroded for the violent group.

Well, as Dom points out a propos of the 90's, Arafat did win the Nobel Peace Prize (there are of course American Jewish groups forever trying to get it revoked!)

Bit 'd still like the "when, precisely": in nice clear detail so Estragon can follow it.

No, you're right...I'm not. A terrorist is a terrorist. I'll believe that Charles Manson will one day become a productive member of society, faster than I'll believe Arafat ever stopped funding terrorism....

As for the precisely when question, as Dom said, Camp David...I simply don't share the opinion. Isreal was finally willing to establish the state, but Palestinians wanted more, more, more...and they waited too long. They should've gotten the state established, prove they could be good neighbors, and they would have then gotten what they were looking for. Instead, they chose the option of more pointless violence, for they aren't about to defeat the Isrealis...and for that act of stupidity, they lose my sympathies....

Arafat has never embraced peace. From the day he was allowed into the UN carrying sidearms, he has always worked for himself. If peace doesn't suit his personal plans then he won't look for it. And to tell the truth, I reckon he's gonna get screwed if the Israelis and the Pakestinians get round the peace table. He's gonna end up marginalized on the sidelines. Peace simply isn't in Arafat's self-interest. The only reason he's still alive is because the Israelis recognise his greed and ignorance and it works in their favour. The man is nothing but vermin. He doesn't give a crap about the Palestinians, all he's worried about is holding power for himself.
You forget that he was the one who opposed so many of the candidates for the new Palestinian government which stalled the process in the first place. One man has that power? Doesn't look to me like he wants to give it up either and that's what he will be forced to do if there is peace with the Israelis.

As for the Nobel Peace prize? That thing is a joke. Just like every other award for peace is a joke. How the hell can you give a peace prize to somebody who supports terrorism. Don't tell me otherwise. Most of the suicide bombings are carried out by Arafat's own armed militant wing. And that ain't a conspiracy theory - that's a fact.
Arafat has only ever been seen as a politician when it has suited Western interests. The truth is that he's up to his neck in terrorism and uses it to line his own pockets. When he dies - I'll throw a party.

And Dom, how can you use the Sinn Fein politicians as an example of peace? We don't even call a baseball bat a baseball bat but rather a Belfast Tickling Stick. Yeah sure they're taking part in the political process because it suits them to be in it right now. Meanwhile the guys who they represent are tearing around Northern Ireland delivering their own brand of "justice" much more frequently than before they came to the table.

You don't trust any other politician so why trust these guys when the evidence is kneecapping your next door neighbour?

www.cnn.com...

I rest my case....

They sabatage their own plight each and every time....morons.

[Edited on 19-5-2003 by Gazrok]

Originally posted by Gazrok
www.cnn.com...

I rest my case....

They sabatage their own plight each and every time....morons.

[Edited on 19-5-2003 by Gazrok]

You shoulda highlighted this dude:

Two radical Islamic groups claimed responsibility -- the Islamic Jihad and the al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, the militant wing of Palestinian President Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement.



[Edited on 19-5-2003 by Leveller]

I felt they'd just read the article...thanks for pointing it out Leveller....