Christian Groups Sue to Stop Schools from Adopting Science Standards

reply to post by puzzlesphere


Of course it's NOT a threat. Sheesh. It's a heads-up. LIfe is NOT going to go on as it has for centuries without dramatic changes. This era WILL DEMONSTRATE SUPER DRAMATIC CHANGES.

There will be many miracles . . . virtually daily . . . maybe hourly . . . within more or less everyone's sphere of observation . . . incontrovertible miracles.

Even satan's crew will be demonstrating 'supernatural' stuff . . . at least hoaxed such . . .

Your death grip on materialism/scientism/ super objectivism as the only route to knowledge, truth and understanding, interpreting reality.

reply to post by BO XIAN


I think you may have mistaken me for an athiest with no belief in the indescribable, for want of the time for a longer and more self indulgent description. However, you still appear to be a zealot who thinks drunk driving is acceptable because it's the 1970's and wouldnt know a code of conduct if it slapped you in the face. I can only assume that if they did infact drive home and killed someone then it would have been due to diabolical influence and therefore you are off the hook.

reply to post by BO XIAN

BO XIAN
"...you will live to see the day..." and "...will leave that perspective in shredded tatters."

Excuse the misunderstanding then... but those are phrases that are rarely heard outside of a threatening sentence... so you can understand how I miss-construed it that way. ;-)

Also, suggesting that my viewpoint will be left in tatters is quite an aggressive attitude to take.

I'm sure that regardless of what the future holds for all of us, there will always be argumentative perspectives opposite to what you think... as long as people can hold an original idea in their heads... it is the nature of being human... If you have any given viewpoint, you can invariably find an opposite viewpoint if you look hard enough.
No viewpoint... even Christianity... will ever have all the answers.

BO XIAN
... LIfe is NOT going to go on as it has for centuries without dramatic changes. This era WILL DEMONSTRATE SUPER DRAMATIC CHANGES.

This is true... every recorded century to date has shown dramatic changes in some way, and I’m sure this century will be no different.

There will be many miracles . . . virtually daily . . . maybe hourly . . . within more or less everyone's sphere of observation . . . incontrovertible miracles.

Cool! Can't wait to see it!

I'm all for miracles, I like to think I keep an open mind (which is often up for argument ;-j), and have read as thoroughly as I can into every documented "miracle" that I can find (part of the reason I am on a site like ATS).

The thing that I have noticed about miracles is that they conveniently happen without a single piece of actual evidence outside of hearsay. Every single one of them... ever.

I would love... absolutely LOVE to witness or have incontrovertible proof of a miracle! If there was even a small example, it would hold huge weight with me of something inexplicable.

Your drunken woman example really doesn't measure up as a miracle compared to the few best examples out there.

You really did nothing more for this woman than a figurative ice-cold bucket of water in the face (also a "sobering" experience), with prayer. Now you’re trying to pass of your perception of a 30 year old event as miraculous, when it can clearly be seen to be just a bad decision based on faith.

This isn't saying all faith is necessarily wrong... but it does highlight how a rigid adherence to a faith based approach in certain situations can have potentially dire consequences (life-threatening in this scenario), regardless of the well-meaning intent of the faith/belief.

Even satan's crew will be demonstrating 'supernatural' stuff . . . at least hoaxed such . . .

So, there will be supernatural powers, but those on a side you perceive as evil (though concepts such evil and good are nothing more than human constructs based purely on perspective), will only appear to be supernatural, and will actually be hoaxes?

So Satan's side won't have supernatural powers then?

Your death grip on materialism/scientism/ super objectivism as the only route to knowledge, truth and understanding, interpreting reality.

Now you're making assumptions about my level of spiritualism... which leads me back to a feeling that you are attacking me with your doctrine (a common religious tactic when feeling threatened)... Rather than taking an objective stance about the broader effect of your own faith based actions... which is really what the core of your doctrine actually suggests that you do.

Materialism is a label. We are material creatures. Inescapable. It is in our nature to be materialistic. The whole Christian religion is based on a single material item... the Bible.

Even thought is a material item. Once I’ve thought it, it becomes part of my conscious domain, and as such is a material piece of my overall understanding of my perceptual reality.

Materialism is a concept used to try to belittle opposing viewpoints.

I don't believe that "scientism" and "objectivism" (adding the "super" is just sensationalist) are the only answers... but I do believe they are part of it... just as religion isn't the only path to interpreting reality... theological thought is definitely a part of it all, but as of yet it is not clear which part...

No religion seems to have it right.

reply to post by winofiend

Umm, well now I would consider you a danger to whomever you counsel.

You let a drunk operate a car. That is irresponsible, unethical and if you are in a position paid to do this, you should lose your license. I do fear however, that you are an unskilled counsellor ifyou are in that role at all. especially if you are praying to sober people up and then letting them drive home.

That, bo, is stupidity and dangerous.

Enough... this delusion is disturbing. You are seriously worrying.

I've never read anything so absurd...

Yep, winofiend!!!


HEAR, HEAR!!!

I was just going to say the same thing. A person who works with those "parameters" of success has no business 'counseling' anyone as a professional. Dangerous and stupid is right. Unethical also applies.

(And I was a professional counselor...so yes, I have room to speak.)

reply to post by BO XIAN


Interesting. What happened to the links to people with viable alternate theories to mainstream ones with sound evidence? You seem intent on proving the legitimacy of this concept of scientism, but until I see some actual discredited theories with substantial evidence in its favor it is going to remain something of conjecture and limited scope. Sure there are corrupt individuals out there who will do anything for a dollar, but in order for something like evolution to be subject to something like scientism would need a global conspiracy of scientists actively pushing other theories aside. This just doesn't seem likely and even if were true, I highly doubt that any of the good theories (the ones with actual proof behind them) are religious based.

Actually on that point, many of the sites you link phrase the definition of the word in such a way that philosophy, religion and science all have to coexist. This isn't true at all. Science HAS to exist, we've shown that there is much knowledge that can be obtained through science. Philosophy and religion not so much. It's nice to sit and have conjecture on what you believe, but in the end it doesn't hold a candle without proof. Also keep in mind, that science absolutely DOES define everything in the universe. We (humans) just don't know most of the laws and scientific theories that make this so. Heck we might never know. At least science is trying to find the answers through research and experimentation. Religion just arrogantly assumes to know.

Science is a living tool of explanation for our universe. We modify our understanding of it as new information comes to light. Religion on the other hand is static in its beliefs and gets all pissy when science shows that some (or all) of its stories and tales are (probably, since science is no where complete) physically impossible.

Serious Christians need to take their kids out of government schools and do their own homeschooling. I'm not Christian, but I definitely don't want my kids going to a corrupt government education facility. People need to take their child's education into their own hands, otherwise prepare to have your kids pumped out of the government schools as dumbed-down obedient drones.

reply to post by OMsk3ptic


Err... They are suing against a change in the scientific core standards. Bassicly that means the government has decided that there are certain things a child must know before progressing to the next grade. I may be wrong but those standards will effect private schools and homeschooling as well.

reply to post by Grimpachi

Private schools set their own curricula and graduation requirements.
In general, requirements for home schooling are only that the five basic subjects are taught.

reply to post by Grimpachi


Could be, which would be even more alarming. The State isn't going to stop until they have total control of our kids, and I do mean total control. "Brave New World" is starting to take shape.

reply to post by Phage


Glad I didn't state that as matter of fact. Does that mean kids graduating from a private school may have never heard of evolution?

reply to post by Phage


Isn't science one of those 5 basic subjects?

Our lack of faith is the problem; and our idiotic attempt at fixing it is compulsory education.

You want peace? Get some faith.

For those of you who think of measurements as facts:

You are believing that the images/visions that you see create order, but this is bad logic. There is nothing that says an image must create order - you have just assumed it does, and in doing so, you have gained faith - but your faith does not make it "facts".

Be faithful of each other, and you will gain an understanding of each other; and that will give you peace.

Krazysh0t
reply to post by Phage

 

Isn't science one of those 5 basic subjects?

Doesn't seem to be. Math, reading, and spelling seem to be pretty universal. Various states have things like grammar, and civics type stuff.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

They aren't fake. They have alternate explanations. Which explanation you believe is up to you.

They are FAKE.

The cave where the stones were allegedly discovered has never been identified, much less examined by scientists. Skeptics consider the stones to be a pathetic hoax, created for a gullible tourist trade.

The Ica stone craze began in 1996 with Dr. Javier Cabrera Darquea, a Peruvian physician who allegedly abandoned a career in medicine in Lima to open up the Museo de Piedras Grabadas (Engraved Stones Museum) in Ica. There he displays his collection of several thousand stones. Dr. Cabrera claims that a farmer found the stones in a cave. The farmer was arrested for selling the stones to tourists. He told the police that he didn't really find them in a cave, but that he made them himself. Other modern Ica artists, however, continue to carve stones and sell forgeries of the farmer's forgeries. In 1975, Basilio Uchuya and Irma Gutierrez de Aparcana claimed that they sold Cabrera stones they'd graved themselves and that they'd chosen their subject matter by copying from "comic books, school books, and magazines" (Polidoro 2002). www.skepdic.com...

The lazy slacker in me wants to get a PhD while only needing to write my name and the word God. But on the other hand, I don't want someone building my bridges who thinks it is evil to follow the laws of physics and believes if the bridge goes down it was because God wanted it to.

reply to post by skalla


Your lofty, haughty, etc. attitude seems quite in keeping with your narrow rigid biases.

Thankfully, you haven't a clue about me.

In terms of the OP . . . I'm skeptical you have much of a clue as to why Christians might be averse to the State gobbling up increasing propaganda turf to twist and manipulate children into obedient robotized serfs and slaves.

reply to post by Phage


Are you unaware that typically private Christian schools' graduates and students tend to out rank virtually all others on standardized tests?

Many home schooled students similarly excel on standardized tests and other measures of achievement and excellence . . . in sciences and other subjects.

Krazysh0t
Science HAS to exist, we've shown that there is much knowledge that can be obtained through science. Philosophy and religion not so much. . . . . Also keep in mind, that science absolutely DOES define everything in the universe.

Uhhh

NOPE.

Science doesn't begin to define everything in the universe--much less accurately.

Sheesh . . . I'd expected you to be more "scientific" than to make such a brazenly wrong assertion.

reply to post by puzzlesphere


I've never even been tipsy . . . in my 66+ years . . . including my Navy years.

I was trained in alcohol treatment by the retired head of the Navy's Long Beach alcohol center that treated Betty Ford.

I'm fiercely hostile to any hint of drunk driving and always have been.

I rarely meet anyone the least bit MORE hostile about it.

I have learned to be more gracious in how I express such but I'm still quite fierce about it.

reply to post by puzzlesphere


Am too tired to respond more than briefly.

1. No aggressiveness--certainly none against your person, personhood.

2. I do have some aversion to the cluelessness of so called super rationalism etc. And I love to challenge folks to think in broader terms.

3. Maybe I can respond more tomorrow.
.