Wow I just realized! "Desire" itself doesn't make people suffer, it's actually...

A summary of what I was trying to say:

Wanting doesn't cause suffering, wanting to "have" does. Most people don't like to "want" anything. They only care to "have" things. They don't "want to want" a million dollars. They only "want to have" it. They don't "want to want" enlightenment, they only "want to have it".

No body desires "to want" anything, they only care "to have" it. This is what causes the suffering. So, they fight with themselves trying to get rid of the desire, or they try to get the "thing" hoping that another desire doesn't come. That they can just live "in peace, happily ever after". If people were wanting and appreciating the wanting for what it is, then fulfillment will be there. If want "wants to want" they will always be fulfilled.


Longer Version of what I was trying to say:

Buddha looked at how most people "want" something but don't "have" it, and came to the answer that this caused them lack and suffering. It's not "desire" that makes people suffer. Desire is life, it gives life meaning and it gives the body sensation. The reason why people suffer is because they want to get away from desire... yes, the very thing Buddhism teaches is what most people are already trying to do. The only difference is that the average person, wants to get rid of the desire and actually "HAVE" the thing they were desiring, while The Buddhist, wants to let go of the desire AND the "attachment" (the having of it).

Here is an example. A person may want a billion dollars. They hate their desire for the billion dollars because they just want to "have" it. Once a person has what they want, then their desire for that thing is gone. They know this subconsciously, so, since they are focused on "having", to them, the desire hurts. The Buddhist, doesn't want to want it, nor care to have the attachment of having it. That is why The Buddhist has more peace even though they are in the same situation as everyone else.

If we see Desire as Life-Force, as The Engine that keeps us moving, as what makes life Beautiful and Meaningful, then we will be less likely to resist it. If we want the desire, instead of only wanting to "have" something, then we can actually Enjoy The Desire. We would actually crave The Desire and The Craving of The Desire in and of itself will be self fulfilling.

reply to post by arpgme


I think it's the desire to control others that makes us and others miserable. The desire to control others can't be constrained or fulfilled. When I look at Buddhist teachers the attachment to desire and material things is seen as evil. But I think it more has to do with our fear of death, fear of losing things to others, to losing our place in relation to others(control) that makes people fearful.

If someone lives isolated away from people he doesn't care whether or not he has money. It is only when he is in the midst of others that he wants money because it is actually control, not money that he wishes for.

reply to [url= by arpgme[/url]


that's a pretty bold title- to call the Buddha and therefore millions of followers over thousands of years "wrong". Sorry to say, but it's your limited understanding which is wrong.
here are the 4 noble truths and there is no mention of desire:
1. Existence is suffering.
2. Suffering is caused by ignorance of the true nature of Self.
3. There is a way to cure yourself of suffering.
4. The cure is called the Eightfold path (proper vision, intention, speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness, and concentration.

before you go calling out an ancient relgion you ought to be a little more sure of your Self....lol

If we see Desire as Life-Force...this might be a bad place to start. Desire is something outside of Life force...I am still alive when I am content...I would argue more alive. Desire is just a word...so perhaps it is our internal interpretations that are at odds in my view.

I think the Buddha may be more right than you realize...I would suggest trying to see it from different angles until it is in agreement with the Buddha's analogy.

IMHO Desire is not what you may call prana...desire would be more like a corruption of darma...

Sincerely,
Drala

True, and another way of saying it is that it's the journey, not the destination.

I also think that our human impulses, emotions and desires are not bad in and of themselves. It's what we do with them, through our free will that makes us monsters or angels.

Namaste

reply to [url= by arpgme[/url]


desire-as-life-force is a tenant of modern Satanism. That desire balances out the Universe. This is not Buddhism at all. Not even wacky tantric buddhism.

IandEye
reply to [url= by arpgme[/url]

 

that's a pretty bold title- to call the Buddha and therefore millions of followers over thousands of years "wrong". Sorry to say, but it's your limited understanding which is wrong.
here are the 4 noble truths and there is no mention of desire:
1. Existence is suffering.
2. Suffering is caused by ignorance of the true nature of Self.
3. There is a way to cure yourself of suffering.
4. The cure is called the Eightfold path (proper vision, intention, speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness, and concentration.

before you go calling out an ancient relgion you ought to be a little more sure of your Self....lol

A more gentle hand in your responses might be in order...we should all "practice what we preach"...the OP is a brother on a similar path not an obstacle you have to conquer

reply to [url= by arpgme[/url]



desire has been a big part of buddhist introspection. Why not read a dozen 1000-year old scriptures before you spout off against buddhism?

reply to [url= by Drala[/url]


lol....that WAS gentle muchacho. The OP said the Buddha was wrong in the title (which has since been changed). Jesus was wrong. mMoses was wrong. Mohammed was wrong. But not the Buddha.
plus this guy is on a Satanist-Pagan-Pantheist trip (the OPPOSITE of Buddhism) and that aint my path "brother".

reply to post by arpgme

If we want the desire, instead of only wanting to "have" something, then we can actually Enjoy The Desire. We would actually crave The Desire and The Craving of The Desire in and of itself will be self fulfilling.

Does this really make any sense to you? Essentially you're saying: A person doesn't actually want to possess or control a Billion dollars, rather they really just want to experience the feeling of desiring a Billion dollars. So a person doesn't desire anything in particular, but desire itself?

What?

reply to post by IandEye


Actually, it's more post-modern hedonism than anything.

I like wanting things more than having them. I have accumulated a lot of things, and now I have no more wants except knowledge of the truth. I still want what I need, food and shelter and warmth. I want something to do because I need to do something. Energy likes to stay busy. Matter likes to sit around or just continue in the direction it is going unless it is stopped or deflected by hitting obstacles. Structured energy is what we are supposed to have, energy that can control the direction we are going in. Some people cannot go around something in their way, they bounce off and go in another direction and stay going that way.

I chose to fragment when I hit an obstacle but retained communication within the pieces, the main section chose a different direction now while the fragments are discovering new directions to go in. I even have fragments that go back and decipher memories to compare them to what I learn. This is structured energy, the ability to increase my perception of what exists is increasing.

Someday I may catch up with many that have been doing it longer than I.

reply to post by OrphanApology

OrphanApology
reply to post by arpgme

 

If someone lives isolated away from people he doesn't care whether or not he has money. It is only when he is in the midst of others that he wants money because it is actually control, not money that he wishes for.

All forms of desire is control. The desire "to do" something, is just a specific way of wanting to control.

The bigger picture is, people want stuff because they want to actually "have" it. They don't actually appreciate the desire in and of itself.

reply to post by IandEye

IandEye
reply to [url= by arpgme[/url]

 

that's a pretty bold title- to call the Buddha and therefore millions of followers over thousands of years "wrong". Sorry to say, but it's your limited understanding which is wrong.

Pretty bold of you to say I am "wrong" about my perspective on desire without giving any counter-arguments. It doesn't matter whether or not someone is "bold". So what? It doesn't mean anything to me. I just care about the information, and you provided none (no counter-arguments against this perspective of desire).

reply to post by Drala

Drala
If we see Desire as Life-Force...this might be a bad place to start. Desire is something outside of Life force...I am still alive when I am content...I would argue more alive.

Why are you creating a duality of "desire" and "contentment"? They don't have to be separate if you have the right perspective. That was the main point of creating this thread.

People are not satisfied with "desire", they want to get rid of desire and only "have" things. The desire itself is not appreciated.

People don't care to "want", they only care to "have".

reply to post by IandEye

IandEye
reply to [url= by Drala[/url]

 

lol....that WAS gentle muchacho. The OP said the Buddha was wrong in the title (which has since been changed). Jesus was wrong. mMoses was wrong. Mohammed was wrong. But not the Buddha.

Pretty bold of you to make such claims about such ancient religions. (Just pointing out the hypocrisy)

reply to post by openlocks

openlocks
reply to post by arpgme

 

Does this really make any sense to you? Essentially you're saying: A person doesn't actually want to possess or control a Billion dollars, rather they really just want to experience the feeling of desiring a Billion dollars. So a person doesn't desire anything in particular, but desire itself?

What?

I didn't say anybody "really" wants anything. What I said was, they DON'T really want the desire, they just want to have. The opposite of what you are saying.

IandEye
reply to [url= by Drala[/url]

 

lol....that WAS gentle muchacho. The OP said the Buddha was wrong in the title (which has since been changed). Jesus was wrong. mMoses was wrong. Mohammed was wrong. But not the Buddha.
plus this guy is on a Satanist-Pagan-Pantheist trip (the OPPOSITE of Buddhism) and that aint my path "brother".

edit on 17-9-2013 by IandEye because: (no reason given)

The OP might be wrong, but he is trying to understand and asking questions...this is of greater value than what you have brought to the table.

PS Satanist-Pagan-Pantheist...where would this fit into Buddhist thought? If you are truly rooted in "the path" you should be able to offer help to people needing some guidance. Is this gesture not part of the path to enlightenment...to shine light unto others?

Good Luck to all...PS its OK to be wrong...the Buddha wouldn't be very angry...he has been called wrong before

reply to post by arpgme


Wow. First of all, you definitely pinpointed the difference between Buddhism and Materialism objectively. Second of all, I don't recall reading about what you added on there.

So, tell me what you think about this, I don't actually care about material things - but I really like interacting with stuff, and this includes ideas- and also interacting with people on the idea plane, which is in a lot of cases hyper jumped to through a material object, like a book or game.

What do you think, Aprgme? I was thinking about it today, and I think Buddhism is a great way to gain perspective on something - actually, I was just reading about how it is used to keep us in check over our ego from the I Ching.

arpgme
reply to post by OrphanApology

 

OrphanApology
reply to post by arpgme

 

If someone lives isolated away from people he doesn't care whether or not he has money. It is only when he is in the midst of others that he wants money because it is actually control, not money that he wishes for.

All forms of desire is control. The desire "to do" something, is just a specific way of wanting to control.

The bigger picture is, people want stuff because they want to actually "have" it. They don't actually appreciate the desire in and of itself.

reply to post by IandEye

 

IandEye
reply to [url= by arpgme[/url]

 

that's a pretty bold title- to call the Buddha and therefore millions of followers over thousands of years "wrong". Sorry to say, but it's your limited understanding which is wrong.

Pretty bold of you to say I am "wrong" about my perspective on desire without giving any counter-arguments. It doesn't matter whether or not someone is "bold". So what? It doesn't mean anything to me. I just care about the information, and you provided none (no counter-arguments against this perspective of desire).

reply to post by Drala

 

Drala
If we see Desire as Life-Force...this might be a bad place to start. Desire is something outside of Life force...I am still alive when I am content...I would argue more alive.

Why are you creating a duality of "desire" and "contentment"? They don't have to be separate if you have the right perspective. That was the main point of creating this thread.

People are not satisfied with "desire", they want to get rid of desire and only "have" things. The desire itself is not appreciated.

People don't care to "want", they only care to "have".

Don't forget to read the part in my post about prana and darma...

Everything is dual...desire and contentment are inseparable in many ways, I was mainly just pointing out there can be life-force without desire and therefore desire is not life-force...I am not here to debate if duality is actually and illusion of one...

reply to post by darkbake

If we could detach long enough to see such thoughts objectively, we would see that they arise from the fears of the bodily self, some of which are conscious, some unconscious. The I Ching recognizes these thoughts as voices of the inferiors. So long as they dominate our mental space, it is impossible to attain the neutrality and acceptance that leads to a correct and neutral perspective.

I Ching - Hexagram 52, Ken, Keeping Still, Mountain

So basically, what this passage is saying, which I have seen before, is that Buddhism (and meditation is for this, in particular) is a way to realize our full potential as who we are and really want, not our full potential based on fears.

I watched a video one time where a guy was saying that we have to recognize the ego, recognize that is ego, and acknowledge it, and then let it go.

Wanting and having are two sides of the same coin. Both states of being are predicated on the ideas of separation and exclusivity--this thing or that thing is more or less valuable, when it's all really the same thing in the first place. That's the problem with desire. It is driven by an errant way of perceiving the world as a collection of separate and distinct objects that can be commodified and "owned".

reply to [url= by arpgme[/url]


when I made my post your title included "the Buddha was wrong". Doesn't me calling your un.drstanding "wrong" seem more contextutal? You like what I did there calling all those other religious figures "wrong" like you so blantantly did to the Buddha?

you are obviously a spiritual materialist- someone who seeks spirituality to make themselves feel better and to try and and control, as opposed to a seeker of Truth which involves the death of the Self and selfish desire.