An interesting Islamic interpretation of Jesus' crucifixion.

sk0rpi0n
reply to post by Akragon

 

read the entire chapter of Hebrews 9... it has nothing to do with how many times a person dies...

The chapter is about whether or not Jesus had to die more then once to accomplish his task...

It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a person can be returned to the physical or not

It doesn't... but the Biblical idea that it is appointed for every man to die once... matters a great deal when it comes to Jesus. That is, if at all Christians believe that Jesus was a man.

If someone believes he was "fully man and fully God" or "God himself", then they would have to present Biblical proof, from Jesus to prove so.

edit on 10-9-2013 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

Perhaps you could explain that a bit more considering Jesus didn't say "every man lives once"... that was Psudo-Paul... and barely that.

I take it you don't believe he will return one day... I personally don't either but that is beside the point...

Jesus actually made several references to man returning to this horrid place... so please elaborate

sk0rpi0n
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

Well ... considering that the Qu'ran was obviously NOT divinely inspired ...

Personal opinion.

No. Common sense based on the facts surrounding the writing of the Qu'ran and who wrote it.

If you want "first hand", lets go by the Israelites "first hand" definition of the Messiah as being a man...

That was their anticipation ... and they got their anticipation wrong.
That's not 'first hand accounts' of the life of Christ. That's anticipation on their part.
Two different things.

How would you explain to an atheist - who denies one religion more than you - that any of what Christians believe is true?

I present the facts. It's up to them to believe it or not. Like I present the fact that the gospels are first hand accounts, but the Qur'an was invented 600 years later by clueless people. You ignore those facts. Just like you totally ignored what I posted about Luke getting the first hand information from Mary.


I understand the need for Muslims to try to discredit the Christian account of Jesus .. because if the Christians are correct then Islam is shown to be irrelevant. But you had to know how easily your Qu'ran fiction would be deboned here.

Akragon
Jesus actually made several references to man returning to this horrid place...

I can see why many Buddhists think of Jesus as a Buddha. Many of the teachings in scripture that are credited to Jesus and/or his followers (like John the Baptist) have a Buddhist feel to them. Buddha's will reincarnate, not for their own karmic reasons, but to help others who are stuck here on the reincarnation wheel.

sk0rpi0n
That is, if at all Christians believe that Jesus was a man.

Fully man. Fully God. Obviously that means different physics rules for Him than we have.

If someone believes he was "fully man and fully God" or "God himself", then they would have to present Biblical proof, from Jesus to prove so.

You've been shown that here at ATS for years. But you continue to deny it. I understand that if you accept the proof that scripture shows Jesus is God incarnate then your Muslim religion becomes irrelevant, so I don't see you being able to accept the facts presented to you. Seems pretty useless to go dig it all up again ... when you've already seen it many times.

reply to post by FlyersFan


I've even heard a few story's about Jesus being Buddha or vice versa...

Considering Buddha came before Jesus... and Jesus actually had a better message

Perhaps Jesus was Buddha after a few more years of learning... *shrug*

Who knows...

reply to post by FlyersFan

No. Common sense based on the facts surrounding the writing of the Qu'ran and who wrote it.

You mean "common sense" and "facts" as defined by someone who follows some bizarre customized version of Christianity, minus Moses and Abraham? No thanks.

Also, the atheists dismiss whatever Christianity you believe on the same grounds. They point out things in the writing of the Bible and justify why they are dismissing it. Why aren't you an atheist yet?

I present the facts. It's up to them to believe it or not.

I present the facts. It's up to you to believe it or not.

Like I present the fact that the gospels are first hand accounts, but the Qur'an was invented 600 years later by clueless people.

Also the Jews can present their facts that the New Testament came about several centuries after the Old Testament and using your own reasoning can dismiss the NT as an invention by "clueless people".

Whats good for the goose, is good for the gander.

That was their anticipation ... and they got their anticipation wrong.
That's not 'first hand accounts' of the life of Christ. That's anticipation on their part.
Two different things.

Oh, so Christianity - despite coming centuries after the Israelite religion - got it right, while the Israelites were wrong... for 2000 years. Right.

So why then does Christianity depend on Israelite scriptures?

reply to post by Akragon

Perhaps you could explain that a bit more considering Jesus didn't say "every man lives once"... that was Psudo-Paul... and barely that.

Its best if we could establish some sort of methodology regarding how we interpret the Bible.

Is it going to be Jesus' words only? I'm fine with that... I can take back the verse in Hebrews 9.

Is it going to be the Bible as a whole?
No problem again, but then do non-Jesus characters take precedence over Jesus words? Would Jesus' words take precedence over Gods words? On what basis?

sk0rpi0n
reply to post by Akragon

 

Perhaps you could explain that a bit more considering Jesus didn't say "every man lives once"... that was Psudo-Paul... and barely that.

Its best if we could establish some sort of methodology regarding how we interpret the Bible.

Is it going to be Jesus' words only? I'm fine with that... I can take back the verse in Hebrews 9.

Is it going to be the Bible as a whole?
No problem again, but then do non-Jesus characters take precedence over Jesus words? Would Jesus' words take precedence over Gods words? On what basis?

Alright...

What do you consider "Gods word"?

As I've previously stated, I am not Christian so I don't hold the bible In the same regard as they do...

I don't know the quran, but im fairly sure I can tackle anything put forth from it with Jesus...

As far as im concerned Jesus knew "Gods word" directly from him...

The OT is out...(false god) Paul is OUT... (false apostle)

What else is there?

reply to post by FlyersFan

You've been shown that here at ATS for years. But you continue to deny it.

I've only been shown a mish-mash of scriptures as "proof" that Jesus was "fully man fully God"
I deny it because its a concocted theology that doesn't hold up when studied with the Bible, especially the Old Testament and Jesus' actual words.

On the contrary, I have presented tons of scriptures proving that
- God is One.
- God cannot be a man and vice versa
- Jesus himself directed worship to God

....all of which completely refutes any idea of Jesus being God. In fact the very idea of "fully man fully God" is ALIEN to the Israelite religion.

I understand that if you accept the proof that scripture shows Jesus is God incarnate then your Muslim religion becomes irrelevant,

Find me ONE verse where Jesus says directly "I am God", and then we can talk about Islam becoming irrelevant. Till then, Islam is on par with the monotheism that Jesus and the prophets taught.

Christianity is on par with Hinduism - a religion that seems to blur the lines between man and divinity.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


well i havent watched the video yet. but based on what you wrote, i was slightly surprised to see an accurate interpretation.

many muslims and even christians who read the quran are still perplexed by what the words are saying but it is clear.

they the deceivers were deceived by Allah, for even as they rejoiced in the death of Christ they rejoiced in a lie. Christ was only made to appear dead for their satisfaction, but was raised up to life again by God with eternal life.

"who laughs last, laughs best"

sk0rpi0n
You mean "common sense" and "facts" as defined by someone who follows some bizarre customized version of Christianity, minus Moses and Abraham? No thanks.

Yes. Common sense. Moses and Abraham ... no thanks. That's common sense.

I present the facts. It's up to you to believe it or not.

If you presented 'facts' then you wouldn't be clinging to that Qur'an but instead would accept the FACT that the Qu'ran isn't from God .. it's made up bits and pieces from other religions .. and it purposely tried to water down Jesus' life in order to try to make Islam relevant. Youd' also acknowledge the fact that Muhammad, a murderer and a liar, claimed visions from God but didn't back it up with any proof. And you'd admit the fact that EYEWITNESS testimony from those who knew Christ are much more reliable than a bunch of self serving fiction made up 600 years later by a murdering thief trying to invent his own religion/political party. FACTS.

Also the Jews can present their facts that the New Testament came about several centuries after the Old Testament and using your own reasoning can dismiss the NT as an invention by "clueless people".

The New Testament came several centuries after the Old Testament. So what? UNLIKE THE QU"RAN .. the New Testament doesn't try to rewrite the Old Testament. It stands on it's own. And it fulfills the Old Testament prophecies. The anticipation remarks in the Old Testament were clearly proven to be of human origin and not of God, because they turned out to be wrong.

Whats good for the goose, is good for the gander.

What's sad is that you think you somehow scored a point or something ... and you failed epically.

so Christianity - despite coming centuries after the Israelite religion - got it right, while the Israelites were wrong... for 2000 years.

The New Testament fulfills the Jewish Religion. The Jewish Religion is prophecy based and since those prophecies are fulfilled, it is obsolete. The Jews missed the Christ. It's just that simple. That's why they have had no prophets for all these thousands of years. Prophets come with prophecy. Since there is no more need of prophecy ... there is no more need of prophets.

So why then does Christianity depend on Israelite scriptures?

Actually, they don't depend on them. The New Testament happens to fulfill the prophecies, but they in no way 'depend' upon the Old Testament. The New Testament is completely capable of standing on it's own. The Old Testament just happens to compliment and confirm it

You again ignore the facts that the author of the gospel of Luke lived at the same time as Mary and obviously got the stories about the Holy Family and what she was feeling and the information of the death of Jesus directly from her. Obviously she's a more reliable source of the events than a murdering caravan thief 600 years later.

sk0rpi0n
In fact the very idea of "fully man fully God" is ALIEN to the Israelite religion

SO WHAT? Christians aren't jews.

Find me ONE verse where Jesus says directly "I am God", and then we can talk about Islam becoming irrelevant.

You've already been shown all this. Islam is irrelevant. Here AGAIN are just a few -

Jesus Himself claimed the "I am' title ... John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." The Jews knew He was claiming the God title, because they immediately tried to stone him for blasphemy. (see John 8:24; 58; 13:19 and 18:5-6 and John 8:58) This is from the Old Testament - And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

Jesus Himself said He came down from heaven.
John 6:51:"I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever;"

Jews believe God alone gives life - Jesus Himself said He is life -
John 11:25: Jesus said to her, "I AM the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.

God the Father Himself testifies -
This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased" (Matt. 3:17 )

For those who buy into Revelation

The final proof of Jesus’ divinity we will consider can be found in the last two chapters of the book of Revelation. According to Revelation 21:6-7, Almighty God reveals himself to us in plain terms: "And he said to me, ‘It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the fountain of the water of life without payment. He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son.’"

And he said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place . . . I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end . . . I Jesus have sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright morning star."

He claimed to be God. The Jews tried to kill Him for it. "The Jews answered Him (Jesus), 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make yourself out to be God.' ” (John 10:33)

More of Jesus Own words -
“I and the Father are one.” (John 10:30)
“…that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father." (John 10:38)
“…He who has seen Me has seen the Father.” (John 14:9)

Jesus Claims to be God

During Christ's trial, the chief priests asked Him point blank, "Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." And He said,

• "I am." (Mark 14:60-62)
• "Yes, it is as you say." (Matt. 26: 63-65)
• "You are right in saying I am." (Luke 22:67-70)

These are all ways of saying the same thing, written by different authors.

Jesus says in John 10:11-18 that he is the Good Shepherd. When you read this passage along with Ezekiel 34:1-16, you can see that Jesus was identifying Himself with God, who pronounced Himself Shepherd over Israel . The Jewish people, being an agrarian and shepherding society, knew and dearly loved this section of the Old Testament because God was using a metaphor they lived every day. So when Jesus said, "I am the Good Shepherd," and that whole John passage so clearly parallels the Ezekiel passage, there was no doubt that He was claiming to be God.

John 16:28. "I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father." What Christ is saying here is that he existed along with the Father before being born. He "entered the world" by wrapping Himself in human flesh and being born as a baby. He grew up, fulfilled His mission/ministry, was crucified and raised from the dead (all part of the "mission") and then left the world to go back to the Father in heaven, where He is now seated at the right hand of God (the place of honor). He is the only person who ever existed before conception. That Christ was in a "pre-incarnate state" means that He is God.

Worship belongs to God alone ... and the angels of God worshipped Jesus.
They know He is God.

LIKE I SAID .. ISLAM IS IRRELEVANT.
The attempt by Muhammad to water down Jesus was done to invent his own
religion/political party. He had to try to make Jesus just another 'prophet'.
Otherwise, who'd want fictional Islam when they could actually have God Himself.

Christianity is on par with Hinduism - a religion that seems to blur the lines between man and divinity.

Wrong (again). Christianity says humans are not God and never become God.
Jesus was God who became man. BIG DIFFERENCE.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Trying to restrain myself for the sake of not derailing the topic...

Christianity says humans are not God and never become God.

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

sk0rpi0n
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
—Qur'an 4:157-158

So back to the opening post .. So no .. this isn't an 'interesting Islamic interpretation' of the death of Jesus. What is is, is a transparently fictional story written 600 years after the events. Written by people with an agenda to try to take away from Jesus the things He did and the things He said. Written by a known murdering liar and caravan thief who had to water down Jesus in order to invent his own religion/political party.

Fictional agenda from 600 years after the events.
That's not 'interesting' except that it exposes the agenda of Muhammad.

reply to post by Akragon

Christians believe that humans can become like God. But not God Himself.
He stays separate.
ETA ... St. John of the Cross is really good reading about this ..
He shaves it REALLY CLOSE. (almost .... YIKES! ... that's how close!)

ETAA ... oh .... and I should say ... this is another reason that I think lots of Buddhists look at Jesus as a Buddha. Some of what is said in scripture really comes close to the Buddhist beliefs. When reading Buddhist magazines I can't tell you how many times I've come across thoughts and beliefs that read almost word for word what the Catholic saints of old have said ....

reply to post by FlyersFan


You are one of the strangest Christians I've ever come across, in that I agree with most of what you say...

I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

All of us being children of God... combined with what he said... That being No man can go to heaven except those who came from heaven...

Solves a lot of issues...

reply to post by FlyersFan

Yes. Common sense. Moses and Abraham ... no thanks. That's common sense.

If you presented 'facts' then you wouldn't be clinging to that Qur'an but instead would accept the FACT that the Qu'ran isn't from God

Its a "fact" only according to someone who denies the prophethood of Abraham and Moses.
Your views are garbage in the sight of Jews, Christians and Muslims... who revere Moses and Abraham.

reply to post by Akragon

As far as im concerned Jesus knew "Gods word" directly from him...

Fine.

So lets do this a step at a time.

Going back to the idea of Jesus' crucifixion....
Did Jesus teach that his crucifixion was supposed to be some kind of a human sacrifice to God?

In the sense, do you believe that his being nailed to a cross was the result of a false accusation... or was it some elaborate sacrifice (at the hands of pagan Romans / sinister Pharisees (Jews) to cleanse the world of sin.

sk0rpi0nIts a "fact" only according to someone who denies the prophethood of Abraham and Moses.

FACT is FACT. The Qu'ran isn't from God. It's easily debunked. It's full of scientific and historical errors. It's obviously poorly transcribed stories from multiple other religions. The writer never proved that he really had visions from God ... no proof offered ... just his sins of theft and murder and lies.

Your views are garbage in the sight of Jews, Christians and Muslims... who revere Moses and Abraham.

Oh blah blah blah off topic attempt to insult me but I don't care so epic failure on your part.
Too bad we don't have the laughing smilies because you'd get a bunch of them right now.


Your attempt at deflection = failure. Address the issues.
I gave you TONS of scripture quotes that show that Jesus HIMSELF claimed to be God.
So by your own words ... Islam is irrelevant.

reply to post by FlyersFan


ummm.. ur knowledge of the bible is obviously very.. very blunt. or uve been reading a different bible to the one in every christian's home.

THE ENTIRE OLD TESTAMENT is about the leadup to the New testament.

The story of Abraham and the family tree of divinity descended through to Mary. Abraham was guided by God to learn what it means to earn God's favour and trust in God's Promises. it took him a while to grow his faith. but eventually he grew his faith to the point where he would sacrifice his son for God. this act of willingness which God stopped is what allowed Christ to be born through Abraham's descendent Mary. and for God to sacrifice his Son for all of man to have a path back to God.

Then the meat of the story, the middle known as the New testament begins with the life of Christ from birth to death and resurrection.

and the end of the story or grand finale is the return of Christ in the flesh. Revelation. where all of us experience what it is to be a God, if only briefly, before punishment and reward is handed out.

you also say that Christianity nor Christ say we are Gods?

ok here's what.. go read the bible. because its obvious u dont know what ur talking about and attempting to debate multiple issues without even knowing the story.

#DENY_IGNORANCE!