An interesting Islamic interpretation of Jesus' crucifixion.

sk0rpi0n
I haven't found a single verse in the Bible where Jesus said "I am God". I know from years of study that they don't exist.

Funny guy. You see only what fits your agenda.

Jesus Himself claimed the "I am' title ... John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." The Jews knew He was claiming the God title, because they immediately tried to stone him for blasphemy. (see John 8:24; 58; 13:19 and 18:5-6 and John 8:58) This is from the Old Testament - And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

Jesus Himself said He came down from heaven. John 6:51:"I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever;"

Jews believe God alone gives life - Jesus Himself said He is life - John 11:25: Jesus said to her, "I AM the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.

More of Jesus Own words -
“I and the Father are one.” (John 10:30)
“…that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father." (John 10:38)
“…He who has seen Me has seen the Father.” (John 14:9)

Jesus Says "I am the Good Shepherd

Jesus says in John 10:11-18 that he is the Good Shepherd. When you read this passage along with Ezekiel 34:1-16, you can see that Jesus was identifying Himself with God, who pronounced Himself Shepherd over Israel . The Jewish people, being an agrarian and shepherding society, knew and dearly loved this section of the Old Testament because God was using a metaphor they lived every day. So when Jesus said, "I am the Good Shepherd," and that whole John passage so clearly parallels the Ezekiel passage, there was no doubt that He was claiming to be God.

John 16:28. "I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father." What Christ is saying here is that he existed along with the Father before being born. He "entered the world" by wrapping Himself in human flesh and being born as a baby. He grew up, fulfilled His mission/ministry, was crucified and raised from the dead (all part of the "mission") and then left the world to go back to the Father in heaven, where He is now seated at the right hand of God (the place of honor). He is the only person who ever existed before conception. That Christ was in a "pre-incarnate state" means that He is God.

So beat it.

So educate yourself ... and admit the gospels do indeed say Jesus is God.
And if the gospels say Jesus is God and should be believed (your religion says so)
.. then the Muslim crucifixion story is bogus.

sk0rpi0n
But I see all those other Christians claiming that they accept Moses and Abraham as prophets.
Are you telling me they are all false Christians?

1 - Abraham and Moses have nothing to do with being a christian or not. CHRIST-ian means following Christ .. it has nothing to do with Moses or Abraham.
2 - People can believe what they want. They are wrong when they think that Moses got the 10 commandments from God on a mountain top. But if they want to buy into it, it doesn't effect them 'being a good Christian or not'.
3 - Deflection attempt on your part. Failure.

Topic - Muslim version of the crucifixion that came 600 years after the event.

Facts - Islam ignored the eye witness gospel accounts; ignored MARY's account; and made up a story that contradicts the gospel accounts.

WHY? - The agenda ... waterdown Jesus to be just a prophet otherwise no one would join the newly invented religion of Islam.

Conclusion - The Muslim story is fabrication and irrelevant.

reply to post by FlyersFan

1 - Abraham and Moses have nothing to do with being a christian or not.

Really? Let me hear it from the other Christians.

Conclusion - The Muslim story is fabrication and irrelevant.

Muslims, like Christians and Jews... need not pay attention to deviants who dismiss Abraham and Moses.

This thread is meant for Christians and Muslims. You are neither, so stop wasting your time here, child.

sk0rpi0n
Really? Let me hear it from the other Christians.

They are welcome to their opinion

Muslims, like Christians and Jews... need not pay attention to deviants who dismiss Abraham and Moses.

"deviants' ... Your continued attempts at insults towards me are comical. (and pathetic)
I gave FACTS show why Abraham and Moses 10 Commandments can be dismissed.
You provided nothing to counter that except ignorant insults. GAME OVER. YOU LOST.
Stop deflecting ... answer the questions.

child.

Grow up. Stop deflecting with continued attempts at insults. Address the subject.

Jesus Himself claimed the "I am' title ... John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." The Jews knew He was claiming the God title, because they immediately tried to stone him for blasphemy. (see John 8:24; 58; 13:19 and 18:5-6 and John 8:58) This is from the Old Testament - And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

Jesus Himself said He came down from heaven. John 6:51:"I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever;"

Jews believe God alone gives life - Jesus Himself said He is life - John 11:25: Jesus said to her, "I AM the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.

More of Jesus Own words -
“I and the Father are one.” (John 10:30)
“…that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father." (John 10:38)
“…He who has seen Me has seen the Father.” (John 14:9)

Jesus Says "I am the Good Shepherd

Jesus says in John 10:11-18 that he is the Good Shepherd. When you read this passage along with Ezekiel 34:1-16, you can see that Jesus was identifying Himself with God, who pronounced Himself Shepherd over Israel . The Jewish people, being an agrarian and shepherding society, knew and dearly loved this section of the Old Testament because God was using a metaphor they lived every day. So when Jesus said, "I am the Good Shepherd," and that whole John passage so clearly parallels the Ezekiel passage, there was no doubt that He was claiming to be God.

John 16:28. "I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father." What Christ is saying here is that he existed along with the Father before being born. He "entered the world" by wrapping Himself in human flesh and being born as a baby. He grew up, fulfilled His mission/ministry, was crucified and raised from the dead (all part of the "mission") and then left the world to go back to the Father in heaven, where He is now seated at the right hand of God (the place of honor). He is the only person who ever existed before conception. That Christ was in a "pre-incarnate state" means that He is God.

- Address those quotes that do indeed show Jesus claiming to be God.

- Address the fact that you said Islam would be irrelevant if even one quote was provided. I provided more than that.

- Address the fact that the Quran says that the gospels are to be believed and that since the Gospel account of the crucifixion is the eyewitness account, then it should be believed over the fictional quran account that was invented 600 years after the events.

- MAN UP. Address the facts without spewing lame attempts at insults. Give it a try.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Jesus Himself claimed the "I am' title ...

Address those quotes that do indeed show Jesus claiming to be God.

But then he also spoke of his God and the peoples God.... and he himself prayed to God.... and he asked others to worship God and God alone.
Could it be.... a contradiction in the New Testament?
Hardly surprising.

Address the fact that the Quran says that the gospels are to be believed and that since the Gospel account of the crucifixion is the eyewitness account

Well, thats exactly what the OP was doing, until you came along with your typical one dimensional rhetoric. The point of the OP was to demonstrate how that particular speakers interpretation of the Korans account of crucifixion was pretty much identical to the Bibles account.

sk0rpi0n : Really? Let me hear it from the other Christians.
They are welcome to their opinion

My discussions are limited to Christians (whatever denomination) who take the Bible as a whole.
Not special snowflakes who have some customized version of Christianity and omit crucial chunks of scripture.
Besides, as far as the scriptural discussions are concerned, I don't usually waste time on unbelievers and heretics. But consider yourself an exception.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


You have stated that the Koran is divinely inspired so is the Bible. Why would God divinely inspire the writers of the Bible to say one thing and the Koran another is God a liar?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


May Peace be upon you.

Have you ever read the 'Gospel of Barnabas'?

Although it is not a canonical text, nor an ancient manuscript, nor completely in-line with traditional Christian and Islamic teachings,... the 'Gospel of Barnabas' does attempt to explain somethings in accord to Islamic teachings. It gives a different view of Jesus' death and the crucifixion.

According to the 'Gospel of Barnabas', God brought Jesus up to Heaven and caused everyone to believe that Judas Iscariot was really Jesus. When Jesus was arrested, tried, convicted, and crucified,... 'The Gospel of Barnabas' says that it was Judas the entire time.

(39)
Jesus said;
'Adam, having sprung up upon his feet, saw in the air a writing that shone like the sun, which said: "There is only one God, and Mohammed is the messenger of God." Whereupon Adam opened his mouth and said: "I thank thee, O Lord my God, that thou hast deigned to create me; but tell me, I pray thee, what meaneth the message of these words: "Mohammed is messenger of God." Have there been other men before me?"

'Then said God: ''Be thou welcome, O my servant Adam, I tell thee that thou art the first man whom I have created. And he whom thou hast seen [mentioned] is thy son, who shall come into the world many years hence, and shall be my messenger, for whom I have created all things; who shall give light to the world when he shall come; whose soul was set in a celestial splendour sixty thousand years before I made anything."

(215)
When the soldiers with Judas drew near to the place where Jesus was, Jesus heard the approach of many people, wherefore in fear he withdrew into the house. And the eleven were sleeping.

Then God, seeing the danger of his servant, commanded Gabriel, Michael, Rafael, and Uriel, his ministers, to take Jesus out of the world.

The holy angels came and took Jesus out by the window that looketh toward the South. They bare him and placed him in the third heaven in the company of angels blessing God for evermore.

(216)
Judas entered impetuously before all into the chamber whence Jesus had been taken up. And the disciples were sleeping. Whereupon the wonderful God acted wonderfully, insomuch that Judas was so changed in speech and in face to be like Jesus that we believed him to be Jesus. And he, having awakened us, was seeking where the Master was. Whereupon we marvelled, and answered: 'Thou, Lord, art our master; hast thou now forgotten us?'

And he, smiling, said: 'Now are ye foolish, that know not me to be Judas Iscariot!'

(217)
So they led him to Mount Calvary, where they used to hang malefactors, and there they crucified him naked, for the greater ignominy.

Judas truly did nothing else but cry out: 'God, why hast thou forsaken me, seeing the malefactor hath escaped and I die unjustly?'

Verily I say that the voice, the face, and the person of Judas were so like to Jesus, that his disciples and believers entirely believed that he was Jesus; wherefore some departed from the doctrine of Jesus, believing that Jesus had been a false prophet, and that by art magic he had done the miracles which he did: for Jesus had said that he should not die till near the end of the world; for that at that time he should be taken away from the world.

(218)
Those disciples who did not fear God went by night [and] stole the body of Judas and hid it, spreading a report that Jesus was risen again; whence great confusion arose.

(222)
For certain evil men, pretending to be disciples, preached that Jesus died and rose not again. Others preached that he really died, but rose again. Others preached, and yet preach, that Jesus is the Son of God, among whom is Paul deceived.

CONTINUED

The Qur'an says that Jesus did not die and was not crucified. Jesus was "raised" to God, while it appeared to others that Jesus was crucified and killed.

But when Jesus felt [persistence in] disbelief from them, he said, "Who are my supporters for [the cause of] Allah ?" The disciples said," We are supporters for Allah . We have believed in Allah and testify that we are Muslims [submitting to Him].

Our Lord, we have believed in what You revealed and have followed the messenger Jesus, so register us among the witnesses [to truth]."

And the disbelievers planned, but Allah planned. And Allah is the best of planners.

[Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ.

[Qur'an 3:52-55]

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.

[Qur'an 4:157-158]

To be honest, according to an Islamic standpoint, all else beyond these verses is considered speculation in Islam.

Peace.

FlyersFan

filledcup
www.abovetopsecret.com...

edit on 10-9-2013 by filledcup because: (no reason given)

I see you had fun with fiction. Whatever. It doesn't change the fact that Abraham was insane. He tried to kill his kid. And Moses did not get the 10 Commandments from God. They were already widely available through history. Crack open a book and do some research ....

he was insane, but ruled a nation. a nation promised to him by God loong before. God told him if he followed his guidance in faith he would bestow him with fertile lands to rule over. if he was insane how did he stop himself from sacrificing his son on the alter. at a time in history when human sacrifice was performed in just about every ancient culture until it was abolished.

the mods removed my previous post for ill manners. but there was no ill manners atall. just the truth. u are obviously debating without having properly studied the entire bible. i have read it from cover to cover. u need to meet up on that level. im telling u.. much of what you see can only come from holding a biased perspective from incomplete knowledge.

uve got some parts ok, but totally wrong in ur perspective from the totality presented. learn ur history, ancient history and read the bible before u form an opinion. but u probably wouldnt listen anyway. i wouldnt have to tell a wise person to do that.

carry on.

reply to post by guitarplayer

You have stated that the Koran is divinely inspired so is the Bible. Why would God divinely inspire the writers of the Bible to say one thing and the Koran another is God a liar?

God also divinely inspired the Torah, where the Messiah is defined as a human, not God. Do you suppose God divinely inspired Christians to make the Messiah into God?

Secondly, I am trying to point out that the interpretation of the crucifixion in the OP agrees the Biblical idea that Jesus was nailed to a cross. The only difference being that Jesus did not die from it, but rather his soul was lifted out supernaturally by God.

reply to post by Sahabi


The gospel of Barnabas - considered Apocrypha - is used to support the substitution theory, which speculates that someone else was morphed to look like Jesus, causing him to be crucified. If I'm correct, the Iranian film "Messiah" was based on the Gospel of Barnabas.

The Qur'an says that Jesus did not die and was not crucified. Jesus was "raised" to God, while it appeared to others that Jesus was crucified and killed.

A crucifixion means an execution i.e - death by being nailed to a cross.
In the interpretation shown in the OP, the speaker says Jesus was nailed to the cross, but did not die as a natural result. Rather, God took his soul, making Jesus' body lifeless and giving the appearance that Jesus was killed by crucifixion. This interpretation fits in perfectly and is in harmony with the text of the Bible. The difference being that Christians believe Jesus died because of the crucifixion.

reply to post by filledcup

i have read it from cover to cover. u need to meet up on that level. im telling u.. much of what you see can only come from holding a biased perspective from incomplete knowledge.

Flyersfan simply uses the label "Christian", in the sense she is a fan of Jesus, thinking it gives her a license to insult Abraham and Moses.

Its funny how Flyersfan uses Jesus saying "I AM" as proof that Jesus was God... because in the Old Testament "I AM" spoke to none other than Moses.... the same prophet that she likes to bad mouth here.

Scorpie

Interesting. I recall, once upon a time, you and I had a discussion about the phrase "saved from death." I made the point that it seemed to me that dying and being raised would "count" as being saved from death.

The context of our discussion, however, was the Christian and Jewish scriptures, not the Koran.4: 157-158. It is heartening now to see serious attention being paid to this possible interpretation of those verses. The door is opened to interfaith dialog, which I think is a good idea, and the long-run solution to much of the hard feeling and misunderstanding that prevails among the successors of Abraham.

Thank you for posting this, S+F, and I wish you well in your reflections.

Someone earlier on made the point that the Bible was written some 60 odd years after Jesus's death so it was not written by any eye-witnesses.

I would also ask when and by whom was the Koran written. As I remember once reading, it was not Mohommad who wrote it but a group of men who wrote it down a little later on. I was wondering who the men were and did they personally know Mohommad and were they taught by them. I seem to remember that he taught his daughters etc I would be interested to know.

What grieves me somewhat about Islam is that it does not seem to be unique but a later version of an ancient world religion, because it shares so much with other religions. Its only the violence for religious belief in itself ,that makes it stand apart from other religions that stopped their conquesting of other people's beliefs generations ago.

reply to post by Shiloh7

"I was wondering who the men were and did they personally know Mohommad and were they taught by them."

The Qur'an that we have today was compiled under the order of Muhammad's third successor, Uthman ibn Affan. Uthman chose Zaid ibn Thabit as the head of the committee to compile the Qur'an. Zaid ibn Thabit was one of Muhammad's personal scribes.

There's a lot more to the story though.

reply to post by Sahabi


Thank you for your reply.

reply to post by eight bits


Islamic and Christian theologies have always been divided over the issue of the crucifixion, among other things.

The division isn't just limited to whether or not it was Jesus who was nailed to the cross, but also involves the various Christian doctrines surrounding the crucifixion. For example, the sin sacrifice aspect of the event - which would be automatically nullified if Jesus had not been killed by the crucifixion. But that is an entirely different subject altogether.

For now, as far as the actual crucifixion is concerned, we have an interpretation that is in harmony with both the Koranic and the Biblical account.

God knows best.

All right, let me see if I can help sort this out.

God is omnipotent, yes? Do we agree?

If an omnipotent God wanted to manifest in three separate and distinct forms, could He not? I know there are some who say that God cannot be divided, but to say this is to limit Him, and thus, blasphemy.

Having said that, each of these forms could also be fully God. To say that it's not possible is again, blasphemy.

So if God, when dealing with His Creation, became 3 different forms-the Creator, His Creative Word, and the Essence of His Glory and Holiness and then decided that the Word would become flesh and show us how to live by submitting to the Creator and calling it a Father-Son relationship, could He not?

Or are you again limiting God?

God, in the form of the Son, can worship and pray to Himself (as the Father) if He wants to. Who are you to say that He cannot?

So you have proven that you are INCAPABLE of posting without resorting to continued insults.
How sad for you.

sk0rpi0n
But then he also spoke of his God and the peoples God.... and he himself prayed to God.... and he asked others to worship God and God alone.

Already addressed this ..

1 - Does't change the fact that Jesus did indeed claim, many times, to be God come down from heaven.
2 - Having a God the Father doesn't take away from Jesus being God the Son.
3 - God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit ... each God ... each recognizing that the other is also God.
4 - Being both God and Man, Jesus would call God the Father ... God. Other times He said that He and the Father were One. Hypostatic union. So it makes sense that he would say it both ways ... that He is One with God and then He says to pray to God.

And you still fail to admit that Jesus did indeed claim to be God. MANY TIMES. You said provide one ... but I provided more. ADMIT THAT YOU ARE WRONG. It's obvious.

until you came along with your typical one dimensional rhetoric.

Seriously ... grow the hell up. Your continued failure to stay on topic and resort to name calling when someone else manages to show you wrong is childish. Man up and stick to the facts for a change.

The point of the OP was to demonstrate how that particular speakers interpretation of the Korans account of crucifixion was pretty much identical to the Bibles account.

How absurd. If that's the 'point' then its' an epic failure. The Quran account denies that Jesus died and that He rose of His own power from death. It denies that He is God. There is nothing about the FICTIONAL Qu'ran account that even remotely matches the EYEWITNESS accounts that are given in the gospels.

Not special snowflakes who have some customized version of Christianity and omit crucial chunks of scripture.

Again .... grow up. Your continued off topic attempts at insults is childish and pathetic.

I don't usually waste time on unbelievers and heretics.

As far as 2 billion Christians are concerned .. you are a heretic. At least you admit your problem ... you don't listen to facts when they present themselves from people that your indoctrination doesn't agree with. Closed minded and pathetic. This is why hard core religious people are stuck in mud. They refuse to acknowledge irrefutable facts when presented. Such as facts that prove Moses didn't get the 10 commandments from God. It's willful ignorance.

filledcup
if he was insane how did he stop himself from sacrificing his son on the alter.

For someone who trys to trumpet his own supposed intellectual superiority in these things .. you sure don't know much. He hallucinated heaven telling him not to do it at the last minute. THe guy was insane. that's the long and short of it. And it's irrelevant that he was the leader of a nation. Leaders of nations can be whackadoos. Plenty were back then ... plenty are today.

As for the rest of your post .... it was blah blah blah WRONG.