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Fukushima operator pleads for international help as radiation crisis deepens
page: 2share:
Originally posted by 12voltz
What help do they need? Ideas ,cash,man power?
ideas are free ,so open a forum dedicated to suggestions and have someone sort through and contemplate each one ,no matter how bizarre and out of the box they may be
cash? there is plenty of that around ,the problem is the returns for some may be generational ,probably not many takers
Man power ? how many would sacrifice themselves for the good of the planet? ( the silence would be deafening) by creating a human shield around the smouldering pile soaking up the rads with good intentions
Help may come when its in your face on the media everyday but its obviously not that important .
Retired Japanese nuclear engineers have offered their services to do the dangerous work.
But the radiation at levels fatal to humans is also damaging to machines and electronics. Metal becomes brittle as the radiation knocks atoms out of position in crystal arrangement, and electronics fail because the conductivity of circuits fails due to the damage.
both the Russians and the American have vast knowledge and experience in underground nukes
drill a shaft for a Nuke to be lowered underneath the Fukushima nuclear reactor ruins
set off the nuke and create a huge cavern and fuse all the fuel rods and run-away reactor cores into a mass of stuff that cannot leak radioactive water into the ocean
plain & simple....
now having the culprits repay the global population for the devestation they are causing is another issue
drill a shaft for a Nuke to be lowered underneath the Fukushima nuclear reactor ruins
set off the nuke and create a huge cavern and fuse all the fuel rods and run-away reactor cores into a mass of stuff that cannot leak radioactive water into the ocean
plain & simple....
now having the culprits repay the global population for the devestation they are causing is another issue
There is no help. Some things are just beyond human ability. We could send everyone on the planet into Fukushima and send every penny, yen, or peso to
Japan and all of it combined could not stop one atomic nucleus from splitting and giving off radiation and heat. Some things are simply not
possible.
Three Mile Island was cleaned up. Chernobyl was entombed (and is now starting to leak again, btw). Fukushima cannot be entombed because the disaster is too widespread, too advanced, and too uncertain. It cannot be cleaned up for the same reason; even if someone tomorrow miraculously comes up with a way to collect every single radioactive atom in the area, where would we put it?
In hindsight, trying to cool the cores with seawater, while I have no doubt it seemed like a good idea at the time, was a huge mistake. It delayed the meltdown, but delaying the meltdown may not have been a good thing. Had it been left to melt down, we would now be in the exact same place we are now with respect to the cores, but with much less radiation escaping into surface waters and the atmosphere. Much less hazardous waste to be kept in tanks, and much less chance of leaks from those tanks.
We had a chance to clean this up when TEPCO used the BWR design instead of the more expensive and safer PWR design.
We had a chance to clean this up when TEPCO was considering using lower-than-indicated seismic loadings in the plant design to save money.
We had a chance to clean this up when TEPCO decided to not protect the diesel fuel from contamination in the event of a tsunami, probably because it was too expensive.
We had a chance to clean this up when the plant was located on a major thrust zone.
We had a chance to clean this up when there was a delay hooking up outside generators, a delay I believe was due to "corporate policy."
We had a chance to clean this up when TEPCO started leaving fuel rods in the pools long after they could have been sealed, again to save money.
We had our chances and we blew it. Now we want another chance? Life don't work like that.
TheRedneck
Three Mile Island was cleaned up. Chernobyl was entombed (and is now starting to leak again, btw). Fukushima cannot be entombed because the disaster is too widespread, too advanced, and too uncertain. It cannot be cleaned up for the same reason; even if someone tomorrow miraculously comes up with a way to collect every single radioactive atom in the area, where would we put it?
In hindsight, trying to cool the cores with seawater, while I have no doubt it seemed like a good idea at the time, was a huge mistake. It delayed the meltdown, but delaying the meltdown may not have been a good thing. Had it been left to melt down, we would now be in the exact same place we are now with respect to the cores, but with much less radiation escaping into surface waters and the atmosphere. Much less hazardous waste to be kept in tanks, and much less chance of leaks from those tanks.
We had a chance to clean this up when TEPCO used the BWR design instead of the more expensive and safer PWR design.
We had a chance to clean this up when TEPCO was considering using lower-than-indicated seismic loadings in the plant design to save money.
We had a chance to clean this up when TEPCO decided to not protect the diesel fuel from contamination in the event of a tsunami, probably because it was too expensive.
We had a chance to clean this up when the plant was located on a major thrust zone.
We had a chance to clean this up when there was a delay hooking up outside generators, a delay I believe was due to "corporate policy."
We had a chance to clean this up when TEPCO started leaving fuel rods in the pools long after they could have been sealed, again to save money.
We had our chances and we blew it. Now we want another chance? Life don't work like that.
TheRedneck
reply to post by St Udio
Drilling a shaft means equipment would have to be positioned above the cores, which is in the highest radioactive area. The radiation in that area will cause metal to lose its strength due to electron displacement and cause electrical circuits to fail. Human operators would probably never even make it out.
If we could manage to drill a hole and drop a nuke, that blast would do two things: shatter the bedrock/crust/mantle underneath Fukushima, making it impossible to ever contain the cores and quite probably leading to another tectonic event, and it would add more fissionable matter to the cores already there, making them more radioactive.
Combining the cores would also increase the amount of heat and radiation. That material is handle-able when in small separated pellets; it is the amount of material in a single mass that is the problem in the first place.
I know your heart is in the right place, but this is a prime example of how just doing "something" can easily be worse than doing nothing.
TheRedneck
drill a shaft for a Nuke to be lowered underneath the Fukushima nuclear reactor ruins
set off the nuke and create a huge cavern and fuse all the fuel rods and run-away reactor cores into a mass of stuff that cannot leak radioactive water into the ocean
Drilling a shaft means equipment would have to be positioned above the cores, which is in the highest radioactive area. The radiation in that area will cause metal to lose its strength due to electron displacement and cause electrical circuits to fail. Human operators would probably never even make it out.
If we could manage to drill a hole and drop a nuke, that blast would do two things: shatter the bedrock/crust/mantle underneath Fukushima, making it impossible to ever contain the cores and quite probably leading to another tectonic event, and it would add more fissionable matter to the cores already there, making them more radioactive.
Combining the cores would also increase the amount of heat and radiation. That material is handle-able when in small separated pellets; it is the amount of material in a single mass that is the problem in the first place.
I know your heart is in the right place, but this is a prime example of how just doing "something" can easily be worse than doing nothing.
TheRedneck
I don´t bother about the yet leaking water, what I really fear is about 10-20 years, when all those containments begin to leak. Then we´re #ed up
Help is on the way.....it just might be too late.
My neighbor used to work for a power plant after he left the military. There was a serious screw up and he got exposed to a dosage that exceeds his lifetime limit. He can never work in a power plant again, except it seems Fukushima. He was offered a 3 month stint to help with clean up and I think he is going to go. sad really, IMHO he is too young to risk it.
I pray for the souls brave enough to go there but not really sure if we have the faintest idea or even the ingenuity to fix it.
My neighbor used to work for a power plant after he left the military. There was a serious screw up and he got exposed to a dosage that exceeds his lifetime limit. He can never work in a power plant again, except it seems Fukushima. He was offered a 3 month stint to help with clean up and I think he is going to go. sad really, IMHO he is too young to risk it.
I pray for the souls brave enough to go there but not really sure if we have the faintest idea or even the ingenuity to fix it.
Originally posted by ipsedixit
Doing this properly will help us deal with the next one. There will be a next one.]
Shut them all down now, and we wont have to have a next one.
Seriously.
In any uncontroled combustion,, ie nuclear blob,, two things must always be present in order for combustion,, which we see as light, feel as heat, and
any other ,,shall we say, products of said combustion, are emmitted.
In a kithen grease fire ,we know not too use water. but water removes on of the needed source's for comb. too take place ,you say, ie water is wet therefore puts out "uncontroled combustion". But u would be wrong.
Now the two "elements" ie Pu or Du or any other Heavy metal,, needed in a nuclear reaction, is one.
the other??,,a correct HIT by another particle..
think of a match, slowed down , strikinking the , rough outside edge of the Pu,,then ,ingnition,,or the point of combustion begins.
Its the Hit that is important.,,too fast,,too slow,,u have too "strike" again,,the wood or fuel,,ie Pu, is already there,,its the m c2 thats important, and the taget.
in other words,,mess up the timing
time,,the other part of e=mc2
In a kithen grease fire ,we know not too use water. but water removes on of the needed source's for comb. too take place ,you say, ie water is wet therefore puts out "uncontroled combustion". But u would be wrong.
Now the two "elements" ie Pu or Du or any other Heavy metal,, needed in a nuclear reaction, is one.
the other??,,a correct HIT by another particle..
think of a match, slowed down , strikinking the , rough outside edge of the Pu,,then ,ingnition,,or the point of combustion begins.
Its the Hit that is important.,,too fast,,too slow,,u have too "strike" again,,the wood or fuel,,ie Pu, is already there,,its the m c2 thats important, and the taget.
in other words,,mess up the timing
time,,the other part of e=mc2
edit on 24-8-2013 by BobAthome because: (no reason given)
edit on 24-8-2013 by BobAthome because: had too bring in the
groceries,,
reply to post by BobAthome
Nuclear reaction is not like combustion. In combustion, elements combine with oxygen, giving off heat, which causes more elements to combine with more oxygen, etc. Take away the fuel, the oxygen, or the heat and the reaction stops.
In a nuclear fission reaction, single atoms of a radioactive substance (U235) split apart (decay) to form new elements. When they decay, they release radioactivity in the form of helium nuclei (α), neutrons (β), and electromagnetic energy (γ). This decay will happen spontaneously at a very slow rate, or it can be accelerated by letting energetic neutrons hit the U235 atoms. This causes them to decay instantly.
As it turns out, every time a U235 atom decays, it releases three energetic neutrons. If there is enough U235, these will hit more atoms, causing them to decay and release neutrons, hitting more atoms, causing them to decay, in a continuing chain reaction. Put enough U235 together in a small enough space and the decay will be so fast it will make a bomb, Put less together and you can get a slower chain reaction that produces heat and radiation fast enough to run a steam turbine. That's nuclear power.
It's also why a nuclear plant cannot explode like a bomb. Nuclear fuel is less than 20% U235, so there can never be a high enough concentration to make an explosion. Bombs are over 90% U235.
You cannot take anything away from a nuclear reaction to stop it (except the U235 itself). In an operating plant, the reaction is stopped by adding something in between the fuel pellets to absorb the neutrons before they can hit more U235 atoms. That something usually contains boron, which tends to absorb neutrons. Boron is also used in spent fuel pools as an additive in the water to slow the reactions enough to allow the rods to cool down enough to be entombed in lead coffins.
It is not possible to place anything in between the atoms in a puddle of molten metal; that's why the reaction cannot be stopped. Take away the heat all you want, freeze the mass to -100 degrees, and neutrons are still flying inside it and atoms are still decaying. Thus, there is ultimately nothing that can be done to "put out" the cores.
TheRedneck
Nuclear reaction is not like combustion. In combustion, elements combine with oxygen, giving off heat, which causes more elements to combine with more oxygen, etc. Take away the fuel, the oxygen, or the heat and the reaction stops.
In a nuclear fission reaction, single atoms of a radioactive substance (U235) split apart (decay) to form new elements. When they decay, they release radioactivity in the form of helium nuclei (α), neutrons (β), and electromagnetic energy (γ). This decay will happen spontaneously at a very slow rate, or it can be accelerated by letting energetic neutrons hit the U235 atoms. This causes them to decay instantly.
As it turns out, every time a U235 atom decays, it releases three energetic neutrons. If there is enough U235, these will hit more atoms, causing them to decay and release neutrons, hitting more atoms, causing them to decay, in a continuing chain reaction. Put enough U235 together in a small enough space and the decay will be so fast it will make a bomb, Put less together and you can get a slower chain reaction that produces heat and radiation fast enough to run a steam turbine. That's nuclear power.
It's also why a nuclear plant cannot explode like a bomb. Nuclear fuel is less than 20% U235, so there can never be a high enough concentration to make an explosion. Bombs are over 90% U235.
You cannot take anything away from a nuclear reaction to stop it (except the U235 itself). In an operating plant, the reaction is stopped by adding something in between the fuel pellets to absorb the neutrons before they can hit more U235 atoms. That something usually contains boron, which tends to absorb neutrons. Boron is also used in spent fuel pools as an additive in the water to slow the reactions enough to allow the rods to cool down enough to be entombed in lead coffins.
It is not possible to place anything in between the atoms in a puddle of molten metal; that's why the reaction cannot be stopped. Take away the heat all you want, freeze the mass to -100 degrees, and neutrons are still flying inside it and atoms are still decaying. Thus, there is ultimately nothing that can be done to "put out" the cores.
TheRedneck
reply to post by TheRedneck
If the core melts down then the reaction does stop because the critical geometrical relationship between the fuel rods is broken, the reaction can not sustain. Some generally short lived fission product will continue to give off heat and radiation, but the main U235 reaction does not.
www.csmonitor.com...
"Never let a serious crisis go to waste." And they'll milk this one for all they can, even though it was pretty well a non-event, nobody really needed evacuating.
It is not possible to place anything in between the atoms in a puddle of molten metal; that's why the reaction cannot be stopped.
If the core melts down then the reaction does stop because the critical geometrical relationship between the fuel rods is broken, the reaction can not sustain. Some generally short lived fission product will continue to give off heat and radiation, but the main U235 reaction does not.
In Japan, this chain reaction stopped at the time of the earthquake, when the reactors shut down as a safety response. But nuclear fission produces such enormous amounts of heat that it takes a long time for the reactor core to cool. Plus, the fissile material keeps giving off what’s called “decay heat” as it continues to emit radiation. Right after shutdown, a nuclear reactor is still producing large amounts of heat, so you’ve got a pretty big job keeping the whole thing cool.
www.csmonitor.com...
"Never let a serious crisis go to waste." And they'll milk this one for all they can, even though it was pretty well a non-event, nobody really needed evacuating.
reply to post by GaryN
No.
The reaction does not require control rods to sustain it; it requires control rods to STOP it. A nuclear reactor operates when the control rods are removed and stops reacting when the control rods are inserted. A melted mass of uranium has no control rods in it to stop the reaction, so it continues in a runaway fashion.
TEPCO reported that the reactors all shut down during the disaster, but then it was discovered that they did not. I am of the belief that the control rods were damaged in the quake and would not insert fully. This combined with the power failure and pump failure led to meltdown.
TheRedneck
If the core melts down then the reaction does stop because the critical geometrical relationship between the fuel rods is broken, the reaction can not sustain.
No.
The reaction does not require control rods to sustain it; it requires control rods to STOP it. A nuclear reactor operates when the control rods are removed and stops reacting when the control rods are inserted. A melted mass of uranium has no control rods in it to stop the reaction, so it continues in a runaway fashion.
TEPCO reported that the reactors all shut down during the disaster, but then it was discovered that they did not. I am of the belief that the control rods were damaged in the quake and would not insert fully. This combined with the power failure and pump failure led to meltdown.
TheRedneck
One poster mentioned electromagnetic energy in reference to the radiation problem at Fukushima.
If mankind were to undertake the scientific version of what they call a "full court press" in basketball, investigating all of the possibilities with regard to electromagnetic energy in the context of radioactive substances, might be a good candidate for the treatment.
I know there is research being done in the area of spaceflight to work on creating artificial magnetospheres within which to shield astronauts from the radiation hazards of space. Personally, I don't think any significant advances in manned spaceflight will occur until a workable, dependable magnetosphere is constructed for that purpose.
The technology might lead to advances in the way emergency response teams can approach highly radioactive contamination zones. Their options for remedies might be dramatically increased if manned vehicles could approach radioactive hotspots with impunity.
The question of transmutation of elements under radio wave and magnetic field bombardment might yield results in the area of disposing of radioactive waste. Radio active elements undergo an extremely slow process of atomic transformation anyway. Can this process be affected in any way so as to hasten the reduction of a higher element into a lower, stable one or even possibly reverse the decay process to one in which a radioactive element can be made to absorb elementary particles enough to restore its stability at its original atomic weight or another, higher weight?
Eventually mankind will have to come up with the answers to these questions. We, as a general population, need to get serious about the importance of dealing, once and for all with the problem of radiation.
If mankind were to undertake the scientific version of what they call a "full court press" in basketball, investigating all of the possibilities with regard to electromagnetic energy in the context of radioactive substances, might be a good candidate for the treatment.
I know there is research being done in the area of spaceflight to work on creating artificial magnetospheres within which to shield astronauts from the radiation hazards of space. Personally, I don't think any significant advances in manned spaceflight will occur until a workable, dependable magnetosphere is constructed for that purpose.
The technology might lead to advances in the way emergency response teams can approach highly radioactive contamination zones. Their options for remedies might be dramatically increased if manned vehicles could approach radioactive hotspots with impunity.
The question of transmutation of elements under radio wave and magnetic field bombardment might yield results in the area of disposing of radioactive waste. Radio active elements undergo an extremely slow process of atomic transformation anyway. Can this process be affected in any way so as to hasten the reduction of a higher element into a lower, stable one or even possibly reverse the decay process to one in which a radioactive element can be made to absorb elementary particles enough to restore its stability at its original atomic weight or another, higher weight?
Eventually mankind will have to come up with the answers to these questions. We, as a general population, need to get serious about the importance of dealing, once and for all with the problem of radiation.
reply to post by TheRedneck
What is criticality?
mitnse.com...
So it would have been better with Fukushima to let them melt down fully and get it over with in a few months? There was no need to evacuate anyone other than those within a short distance of Chernobyl, just as there was no need to evacuate Fukishima, but maybe the Japanese have a societal fear of even the word 'radiation' after what the USA did to them during the war, but there is NO scientific basis to the over-reaction to these events that is the cause of 99.999% of all the suffering of the evacuated residents. In chernobyl it was Vodka that cause most of the health and social problems as a rumour started that Vodka protected you from radiation. Not a good thing to tell the east European population who seem to drink more Vodka than I drink tea, even before the meltdown. The evacuation also of course caused much emotional stress and suffering, adding to negative health effects.
Dr. Alexander Borovoi went into the Chernobyl reactor building in late 1986, just a few months after the meltdown, and took photos from close up, and got right up to the corium in order to collect samples. He is still alive and perfectly healthy. There are people who create melt-downs in laboratory tests on purpose to see what the corium can do, and yes it can melt through cement and steel while hot enough, but when it cools they can pick it up, no danger. The worst case scientific calculations have determined that the molten core would go no further than about 2 feet into the reactor base as the mixing in of cement and steel and the zircon fuel rod cladding would result in a poisoning of the reaction, making it go sub-critical.
What is criticality?
Most types of light water reactors (like the BWRs in Japan) use water to not only cool the reactor, but to also slow down neutrons. In these systems, slower neutrons cause the majority of fission reactions. Therefore, if the water boils off, neutrons will not slow down as much and the probability of fission reactions and power decreases, thus putting the nuclear system in a subcritical state.
If water heats up and vaporizes in a BWR reactor or spent fuel pool without cooling, the temperature increase of the water and eventual vaporization of water will tend to place the system in a subcritical condition. There are also large amounts of boron in these systems such as the control rods of the reactor, and various kinds of boron in the spent fuel pools. Additionally, steel structures supporting the spent fuel in the pool are sometimes made out of borated steel, which also contains large amount of boron. Even if the fuel does melt, the new geometric configuration will likely not be favorable for slowing down neutrons, so re-criticality is unlikely, even if water should be reintroduced to the system.
mitnse.com...
So it would have been better with Fukushima to let them melt down fully and get it over with in a few months? There was no need to evacuate anyone other than those within a short distance of Chernobyl, just as there was no need to evacuate Fukishima, but maybe the Japanese have a societal fear of even the word 'radiation' after what the USA did to them during the war, but there is NO scientific basis to the over-reaction to these events that is the cause of 99.999% of all the suffering of the evacuated residents. In chernobyl it was Vodka that cause most of the health and social problems as a rumour started that Vodka protected you from radiation. Not a good thing to tell the east European population who seem to drink more Vodka than I drink tea, even before the meltdown. The evacuation also of course caused much emotional stress and suffering, adding to negative health effects.
Dr. Alexander Borovoi went into the Chernobyl reactor building in late 1986, just a few months after the meltdown, and took photos from close up, and got right up to the corium in order to collect samples. He is still alive and perfectly healthy. There are people who create melt-downs in laboratory tests on purpose to see what the corium can do, and yes it can melt through cement and steel while hot enough, but when it cools they can pick it up, no danger. The worst case scientific calculations have determined that the molten core would go no further than about 2 feet into the reactor base as the mixing in of cement and steel and the zircon fuel rod cladding would result in a poisoning of the reaction, making it go sub-critical.
Originally posted by GaryN
reply to post by TheRedneck
What is criticality?
Most types of light water reactors (like the BWRs in Japan) use water to not only cool the reactor, but to also slow down neutrons. In these systems, slower neutrons cause the majority of fission reactions. Therefore, if the water boils off, neutrons will not slow down as much and the probability of fission reactions and power decreases, thus putting the nuclear system in a subcritical state.
If water heats up and vaporizes in a BWR reactor or spent fuel pool without cooling, the temperature increase of the water and eventual vaporization of water will tend to place the system in a subcritical condition. There are also large amounts of boron in these systems such as the control rods of the reactor, and various kinds of boron in the spent fuel pools. Additionally, steel structures supporting the spent fuel in the pool are sometimes made out of borated steel, which also contains large amount of boron. Even if the fuel does melt, the new geometric configuration will likely not be favorable for slowing down neutrons, so re-criticality is unlikely, even if water should be reintroduced to the system.
mitnse.com...
So it would have been better with Fukushima to let them melt down fully and get it over with in a few months? There was no need to evacuate anyone other than those within a short distance of Chernobyl, just as there was no need to evacuate Fukishima, but maybe the Japanese have a societal fear of even the word 'radiation' after what the USA did to them during the war, but there is NO scientific basis to the over-reaction to these events that is the cause of 99.999% of all the suffering of the evacuated residents. In chernobyl it was Vodka that cause most of the health and social problems as a rumour started that Vodka protected you from radiation. Not a good thing to tell the east European population who seem to drink more Vodka than I drink tea, even before the meltdown. The evacuation also of course caused much emotional stress and suffering, adding to negative health effects.
Dr. Alexander Borovoi went into the Chernobyl reactor building in late 1986, just a few months after the meltdown, and took photos from close up, and got right up to the corium in order to collect samples. He is still alive and perfectly healthy. There are people who create melt-downs in laboratory tests on purpose to see what the corium can do, and yes it can melt through cement and steel while hot enough, but when it cools they can pick it up, no danger. The worst case scientific calculations have determined that the molten core would go no further than about 2 feet into the reactor base as the mixing in of cement and steel and the zircon fuel rod cladding would result in a poisoning of the reaction, making it go sub-critical.
wow we have come so far,, regarding the "radiation" is not Lethal,, she would be so proud, of our Generation,,
reply to post by BobAthome
I'm confused. She died from radium exposure, but they still use radium as a cancer cure.
Look it up.
I'm confused. She died from radium exposure, but they still use radium as a cancer cure.
Look it up.
Originally posted by OmegaSynthesis
Send all the murderers, paedophiles, rapists, who are sentenced for life in to grab them rods to atone for their sins.
While they're at it, send in the ceo's of bp and the oil tycoonists and all the other assholes that dared to aim a gun right at earths heart.edit on 23-8-2013 by OmegaSynthesis because: (no reason given)
Throw yourself in there for making sure they succeed! You use plastic? Oil.....You drive a car? Oil....You heat your home? Electricity (coal, oil, etc)....The list can go on and on, but you get my point.....(No offense)
"They" wouldn't be successfull if you stopped using the stuff you so demonize......You advocate it....(No offense again, just trying to open your eyes)
Prisoners is another thing all together....I am all for that one! Not to mention it would save taxpayers millions in the process of getting rid of all of the scum.....Start a petition on that one and I will sign!!
Originally posted by GaryN
reply to post by BobAthome
I'm confused. She died from radium exposure, but they still use radium as a cancer cure.
Look it up.
and they use snake venom for snake bite,, so????????????????????????????
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