A return to the Air Force for the sleek Blackbird?

As far as Zaphod, Boomer and schuyler go I consider them all pretty accurate and the real deal. High profile members as far as Im aware are vetted by the ATS staff (I may be wrong) so we dont get fakes. I see no reason to distrust what they say. I dont think they know "everything" thats clasified and Im sure they dont claim too and unless we get a full General or Admiral or the head of Lockheed/BAE/Boeing ect we wont ever get a poster that does. But as far as what that can say I would take it as accurate.

Originally posted by gariac
reply to post by _Del_

 

Noise is proportional to the square root of the bandwidth. Wider bandwidth, more noise. [Technically only true for Johnson noise.] This is science. So all you can do is put more information in the bandwidth, typically done with a chirp, though not restricted to that stimulus.

One of the interesting things is that larger aircraft actually defeat low-frequency returns more effectively which at first glance seems counter-intuitive.

Feel free to elaborate.

Shaping and edge-alignment effectiveness depends on the wavelength being shorter than the object being illuminated. There is also half-wave resonance. So for a given aircraft/feature, as the wave frequency lengthens from say Ku- all the way to L-band (or even VHF or HF in older BTH radars) ...
For RAM to work effectively at lower bands, it needs to be thicker (thus heavier). That's something more easily swallowed as a compromise on bigger airframe as well.

One problem, as you stated is the amount of noise you're getting back with low-frequencies. But with more computational power available, the filtering is getting easier. The other thing is that you now have a giant return because of very low resolution. I might be able to detect it, but I'm not effectively tracking it. I cannot fire on a moving return whose resolution is a half-mile or more. I just know "something" is in that cubic half-mile of air. It's more of a "heads up" for systems with a more useful frequency-range -- and at those frequencies, well we're right back into why stealth is not worthless.

So what about these unknown/unidentified 'fast movers' that have supposedly been seen skating across the skies in the UK and elsewhere...?

reply to post by _Del_

That's something more easily swallowed as a compromise on bigger airframe as well.

OK, but the target is bigger too. Sounds like a wash to me.

While it is true that there is more noise as you go lower in frequency, that is for atmospheric noise. My comment was about bandwidth and Johnson noise.

Pave Paws is about the only low frequency radar routinely run. But Pave Paws only works thank to ham radio operators not jamming it. One suspects if you did interfere with Pave Paws, you couldn't do so for very long. I have no idea if they picked the Pave Paws frequency to counteract stealth. The timing right, i.e. early 80's.

Johnson noise is not the kind of thing you can filter, well other than to restrict the bandwidth. But if you want to get technical, the convolution of the chirp with the return is a filter. That is convolution in the time domain is filtering in the frequency domain.

Here again, it would have been a lot easier to discuss multi-frequency with an actual specification to look at.

Originally posted by weavty1
So what about these unknown/unidentified 'fast movers' that have supposedly been seen skating across the skies in the UK and elsewhere...?

Eh, people see or hear lots of stuff. Without physical evidence, who knows what they saw. About the only use for eyewitness testimony is if the person isn't totally out to lunch, it may give you a clue as to where to look and obtain real physical evidence.

Remember, people see space aliens, they claim to be abducted, etc. You can't put much faith in eyewitness testimony. Even if they are not fabricating a story, you really can't identify planes by eye unless they are on top of you with some daylight. Note few people carry binoculars.

Locally, there have been a fair number of flying dolphins. I'm speaking of the HH-65 kind. I had one fly over me at night. It was low enough to spot. I didn't see any wing lights, but it didn't sound like a helicopter either. But I noted the location and time, and just looked it up on the local noise tracker website. The tracker had the mode-s code, which I then tracked back to a HH-65. So what one person would have written up as a UFO, I simply figured out the truth.

Noise trackers

The hint that gets me is simply that there thousands of uber geeks, like me I suppose, pointing our expensive DSLR cameras with super zoom lenses at the sky all day and every day (collectively speaking) and I have photos where you an read the reg on a plane at 30,000ft, but in all these years there has been nothing taken by anybody that looks like it could be something along the lines discussed here. How can this be?

reply to post by gariac


reply to post by waynos


If you got time I wouldnt mind a Skpetic eye over my thread Black Triangles Its got some photos on page 2 I wouldnt mind vetted.
I doing a investigation so looking for anything.

BTW you read the NDIS report the 2002 not the 2004 one?


As for Gibson sighting if the black triangles are some sort of stealth blimp then could'nt that explain it? They would be flying at a lower altitude would'nt they? It would also expalin why if there are no Aurora/Blackbird replacement what these craft are?
Some theroys I have:
1) They could be Navy operated not AF or even CIA/Other agancy
2)Complety diffrent role to foreign Recon. Maybe domestic spying? A secret Nuclear second strike craft? Some sort of Radar station? A anti missle platform?
3) There so called super speed and maneuverability could be down to soem sort of visial and Radar decoy, the craft itself could be pretty simple in design.
4) Kept highly classified as it would provide a extrem advanatge if a major war were to break out were the USA + Allies would face oppostion that could match it conventionaly.
5) The UK has at least 1.

Originally posted by schuyler
I think the Blackbird is a beautiful airplane...But one item astonished me. The pictures they took were on film and had to be taken back to base and developed! It wasn't a real-time digital platform at all; it was strictly analog!

I agree! The Blackbird is a beautiful aircraft. She is my favorite. As far as the film problem, I wonder if they could install a real-time video system? I bet they could.

Originally posted by Cosmic911
As far as the film problem, I wonder if they could install a real-time video system? I bet they could.

Meet the Cats Eye recon pod, also known as Senior Span/Senior Spur.










The U-2 has been fitted with ASARS-2A (Advanced Synthetic Aperature Radar System), and SYERS (Senior Year Electro-Optical Reconnaissance System) that allows data to be transmitted in near real time, but only has a range of about 300nm. They can only carry either ASARS or SYERS, but not both. They are fitted into the nose, which is interchangeable, like on the SR-71.

To allow for longer range data transmission, Senior Span/Senior Spur were developed. They are satellite transmission links carried in the dorsal pod. Both of these links allow data to be sent anywhere in the world in near real time.

reply to post by Zaphod58


Thanks for this!! I volunteer at the Royal International Air Tattoo & we had 2 U-2s come in to RAF Fairford the Tuesday before the show, both with these on the top. Apparently they were coming in from a certain south-east Asian country who's been causing trouble recently. One left before the show but the second one had problems with the connections for this and they ended up hiding it in the hangar cos as well as this, it had some other top-secret additions to it and they didn't fancy half a million people having a nosy

I'd never seen one of these before though and quite a few others hadn't either, we always assumed that it'd be some sort of camera but this has just cleared it up

reply to post by Zaphod58


They don't fly the Senior Span all that much, but some people have got photos of it at Beale. There is an abandoned trailer park right by the fence where you used to be able to park and plane spot. However, a pile of dirt mysteriously showed up one day blocking the road. Funny how that happened. Depending on the wind, you can still catch planes on approach from the north side of the base.

Beale

I don't have the shots from the fence line as a web page since I didn't want to get too much "in their face" at Beale. The Beale aircraft show up on the Sacramento noise tracker. The touch and go training flights don't use mode-s, but all the missions do as far as I can tell. Of course they lie about the altitude. You only see 60Kft on mode-s receivers.

reply to post by gariac


They came through Hickam a number of times before I left there with it on the back. They used to draw eyes on the front of it on either side. The first time they had it on they wouldn't say what it was, but by the second or third time they were willing to talk some about it.

reply to post by Florasaurus


Yeah, if you look at one of the pics I linked you can see a couple other not much talked about additions to the aircraft.

reply to post by crazyewok


The first photo doesn't even appear to be an aircraft. How would you have branches and that thing in the same shot. Think of the scale. The whatever is in a dive, yet they got a still of it at niight?

The other stuff, who knows Kites? I find these shots echo alll over the internet in blogs, probably written by kids in their parents basement. You need the original researcher's comments. I Tin Eyed the first shot and it went to some BS page about antigravity.

I just ignore this nonsense. It is a total waste of time. If someone determined what the photo was, it would already be documented.

Originally posted by gariac

The other stuff, who knows Kites?

Really kites ?

Thats just as far out as the BS Anti grav element 15 Alien hybrid designed craft story. Ok maybe not that far out buts its pretty far fetched. Hell the Flacon Project fits its far better.

Fact is you cant explain that photo. Nor can I. Therefore something unkown exists.

Originally posted by gariac
I just ignore this nonsense. It is a total waste of time. If someone determined what the photo was, it would already be documented.

Nonsense? So everyone includeing me thats seen something along theline is lieing eh? I dont want to sound rude because I dont mind a critical eye but to dimiss everything as nonsence and not even consider the possbility is pretty closed minded. Especilay when there is a photo that you cant explain away. Dozens of military and Law enforcement people have witnessed these they can all be lying can they?

Plus did you read the NDIS report I suggested the 2002 one. Its a intresting read.

I can understand you being highly skeptical. But to dimiss it as nonsence and complety bogus I find rather closed minded.

BTW the first picture I think IS a fake but I cant find anything to disprove either way.

Originally posted by crazyewok
As far as Zaphod, Boomer and schuyler go I consider them all pretty accurate and the real deal. High profile members as far as Im aware are vetted by the ATS staff (I may be wrong) so we dont get fakes. I see no reason to distrust what they say. I dont think they know "everything" thats clasified and Im sure they dont claim too and unless we get a full General or Admiral or the head of Lockheed/BAE/Boeing ect we wont ever get a poster that does. But as far as what that can say I would take it as accurate.

I studied aerospace engineering in school and have held a private pilot certificate (expired for some years now), I would vouch for the authenticity of all three and would add Gariac and Shadowhawk to the list ( I have 2 of Shadowhawk's books in my collection . )

Keep in mind a couple of them are bound by non disclosure agreements for life and have seen things they cannot talk about.

Sorry for sounding like a fanboi but the above group consistently contribute some of the best content on this website.

Ironically, much of it is goes largely unnoticed

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by Florasaurus

 

Yeah, if you look at one of the pics I linked you can see a couple other not much talked about additions to the aircraft.

The linked pics are pretty nice, thanks for posting them. During the early days of Desert Shield, we had to recover a U-2 that diverted in to our location that had that pod on it. That really was the only time I ever was close enough to a U-2 to even see the type of sensors it carried. I also can't help but notice that is a Rivet Joint in the background. I am certainly very biased in my opinion but I always thought that was a much cooler aircraft than those high-flying glory grabbers, the U-2 and SR-71.

I sincerely mean no offense to the U-2/SR-71 worshippers in this thread, but we did all the real work while they were out taking pretty pictures

j/k
Vince

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by gariac

 

They came through Hickam a number of times before I left there with it on the back. They used to draw eyes on the front of it on either side. The first time they had it on they wouldn't say what it was, but by the second or third time they were willing to talk some about it.

I see what you mean. My comment is more for Beale flights, where the vast majority are just training. Few have obvious sensors mounted. Most Beale U-2 flights just orbit the base. Not even a mode-s ping. They do show up on the noise tracker.

The Global Hawk flights are infrequent, though the related NOTAMs are for all intents and purposes permanent.
They use a super secret callsign: Hawk. Edwards uses/used High Tech (not sure how they would spell it) or Ryan.

For people that have never been to Marysville, you can't get there from here. Not that they are a bunch of hicks. Hey, they even have Chinese restaurants out there. But the roads aren't very fancy. Worse yet, due to the Pave Paws location, the base blocks some useful roads.

reply to post by Drunkenparrot


Funny thing about that new U-2 document is the CIA says I was reading the wrong books! However, I do suggest reading Operation Overflight, now in print again. If you are looking for a lot of technical info, it is the wrong book. If you want to learn what it is like to be recruited by the CIA, fly spy planes, and get tossed in a Soviet jail, it is a page turner.

gariac

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by gariac

 

The Global Hawk flights are infrequent, though the related NOTAMs are for all intents and purposes permanent.
They use a super secret callsign: Hawk. Edwards uses/used High Tech (not sure how they would spell it) or Ryan.

HYTEC

edit on 21-8-2013 by boomer135 because: (no reason given)