NSA collects Data; Why it should and must, an AlienView

Take an alien view for a moment. It has suddenly become the most earth shattering revelation and most serious threat to your Constitutional rights and personal liberty because an intelligence gathering agency of the US Government is gathering intelligence. What? What intelligence, what data? Intelligence and data that is already there, already on the memory of thousands of machines [computers] that are apparently more aware and conscious than the humans that built them! I want to tell you something humans the data collected by intelligence agencies is available to the world and you can thank the internet and Google, et.al. and yourselves for this. You turn on your computer and even before you sign on to the internet data is being gathered. When you do sign on to the internet, thousands of machines all over the world are gathering data on you; And this includes honest and crooked business people, terrorists and yes even those barely competent analysts at the NSA. Let me put it quite clearly to you if you effectively stop the NSA from collecting data on you, you will not in anyway be safer and you constitutional rights will in no way be safer - but your right to the safety of yourself and your possessions will be more than ever at the mercy of the new super smart, super criminals out to rob and rape you. Feel safe in the age of computers without government oversight? - then you are a fool and a fool and his money and constitutional rights will soon be separated!

But we might agree on one thing - no government agency should be beyond the scrutiny of the people - if they have a legitimate reason to monitor and gather data on the people then the people have a legitimate right to monitor them!

To summarize.

Criminals exist, so the government must be better criminals to stop the first criminals.

Yes, people can break laws by hacking computers and getting information, NO the government should not turn into super-hackers to prevent them.

Flawed logic at its worst.

reply to post by benrl

What logic? What hackers? Are you saying if the government analyzes data and info it is automatically engaged
in a criminal enterprise? No, not the Russian Mafia robbing bank accounts, not the terrorists planing the next attack,
but the government you have to fear? Crazy logic there. Government of the people, for the people and by the people
can not exist and will be eliminated by criminal hackers if there is no government protection ot the internet jungle.
Think the streets of Chicago are dangerous, yes they are, but not half as dangerous as the 'Internet Jungle'.

all fine and dandy if you like being guilty till proven innocent, It is all a sham!!!! where was the NSA to prevent the Boston bombings,? If they had Info on them, then they, NSA via FBI, should have stopped them, if no Intel was on them, the bombers, then what good is NSA spying?, other than putting fear in the masses of being spied on.

We all have the right to privacy and be only searched and spied on if and when there is reason to do so, not just because of the reason or term "National Security" to me this is an of act of tyranny for you that might know it as such read this www.merriam-webster.com... from the link so as there be no confusing the meaning

1
: oppressive power ; especially : oppressive power exerted by government

if this NSA spying data mining is not an act of such, then we all need to rethink what freedom is.... and our forefathers died in vain.

I have a problem. I can't see how 'by necessity' the collection of data, available data already being recorded by a multitude of machines, is taking away someones 'rights'. Rights can be stolen by government with no data collection at all and all the data collection in the world does not by necessity interfere with anyone's rights. May be we should
have the police not patrol certain neighborhoods because there is a lower economic stratum or more people of color. Yes, police should no longer stop crime - the're discriminating against the criminal class - all data is useless
anyway tell the government to go home - let the criminals take over!.

It started long before the internet. It started as soon as humans developed communication.

Yep, as soon as you had an idea and wanted to relay it, someone else was there to receive this information. Others may have also gotten this info, making them the first hackers.

Cave paintings were the original hard drives... yep, and there was no nortons back then to stop someone coming in and stealing your hunting ground locations.

Every time you open your mouth to talk, you're revealing information. Every time you listen, you're receiving information.

I guess we should all plug our eyes and ears. To save the things in our heads from being used.

And I'm pretty sure that when I log onto the internet, someone is being paid far too much if they are even aware of it... or damn, I want a job like that.

reply to post by AlienView


Eventually one of the big companies will announce they have a working A.I.(thanks to all the years of data mining a massive data pool). This A.I, It will be self named SAM (Seriously Awesome Machine), will be the first in the totalitarian creep towards a fully fledged A.I controlled police force with robots.

Imagine a quantum networked robot that could facially recognize and compile a near instant profile based on certain parameters and algorithms built into the A.I. It also has built in biometric recorders so that you cannot lie easily without being detected. I dunno man hopefully they do not ban farting in public in the near future or i am in big trouble.

reply to post by TheomExperience

That may be inevitable. The question is would you rather have some mad scientist in control or a terrorist group, or
whatever or a government agency that at least can be monitored by other government agencies under the Constitutional Republic of the United Sates?

Originally posted by AlienView

That may be inevitable. The question is would you rather have some mad scientist in control or a terrorist group, or
whatever or a government agency that at least can be monitored by other government agencies under the Constitutional Republic of the United Sates?

Well anyone in control of me could be considered a "terrorist" from my perspective, if i was aware of their controlling influence and found it unacceptable that is.
I am not a big fan of massive compartmentalized government structures and i can the use of this information being useful in active prevention of crime. I can also see the other side of this which will be to emotional blackmail or leverage certain people, hopefully not people in positions of power

Originally posted by AlienView
reply to post by TheomExperience

 

That may be inevitable. The question is would you rather have some mad scientist in control or a terrorist group, or
whatever or a government agency that at least can be monitored by other government agencies under the Constitutional Republic of the United Sates?

How about none of that. And telling people, "yea we need a free and open internet" (so you can watch every little thing people say or do) is just as bad as the scientists or a terrorist using this crap to have their bad ways. Its all wrong.

A person has to grow on their own, with the opportunity to do so. Its called self determination. You determine your destiny, your life. Not some person sitting behind a computer or some court or even a government, any government. How do you expect for people to evolve and become better people if you cant even trust that this is what people are capable of? And we are! All of us are. People are so much better than what some percieve them to be, those people just need the opportunity to show it and be it.

What we need is for people to be free. Great thinkers and minds working together to improve life for everyone. What we dont need is more boots on neck, just maybe a little nudge now and then and a hand up when we fall but 24 hour baby sitting? Digital or otherwise, Pfft. hell no.

reply to post by AlienView


The problem are those oft quoted sayings 'the thin end of the wedge' or even 'give them an inch and they'll take it a mile' but they're quoted and requoted for a reason.

It's the principle of the matter.Like what the man said above guilty until proven innocent.It's like when I'm walking down the street minding my own business then there is no good reason for the police to stop me,wanting to know where I'm going or what I'm doing.It's why I refuse to carry any I.D on me.

Why exactly does the government or the security services need to have a record of every communication I make.Simply saying that it's potentially available to other interests therefore isn't it better the government has it makes no sense to me.Could you explain that one further ??

But you see they already have the power; It's for another post to discuss big government, but big and powerful as
it is would you rather they wielded this power randomly and unintelligently and then of course arbitrarily or would it
not be better if it was based upon intelligence? And how are your rights safe if you can not be safe from criminal enterprise? As I said in the beginning I'm not suggesting we give the NSA carte blanche to use collected data indiscriminately as it chooses - they too must be monitored by others inside the government; But I still believe the
collection of the data is in itself not necessarily a threat to your rights. [Unless of course you are planing a criminal
operation and in which case you are a threat to my rights as a law abiding citizen]

Nah I'm sorry,we're already under almost constant surviallance it seems what with cctv,mobile phones,credit cards,number plate recognition cameras all over the place.It's too much,they don't need the ability to track our every move

Originally posted by Nephalim

Originally posted by AlienView
reply to post by TheomExperience

 

That may be inevitable. The question is would you rather have some mad scientist in control or a terrorist group, or
whatever or a government agency that at least can be monitored by other government agencies under the Constitutional Republic of the United Sates?

How about none of that. And telling people, "yea we need a free and open internet" (so you can watch every little thing people say or do) is just as bad as the scientists or a terrorist using this crap to have their bad ways. Its all wrong.

A person has to grow on their own, with the opportunity to do so. Its called self determination. You determine your destiny, your life. Not some person sitting behind a computer or some court or even a government, any government. How do you expect for people to evolve and become better people if you cant even trust that this is what people are capable of? And we are! All of us are. People are so much better than what some percieve them to be, those people just need the opportunity to show it and be it.

What we need is for people to be free. Great thinkers and minds working together to improve life for everyone. What we dont need is more boots on neck, just maybe a little nudge now and then and a hand up when we fall but 24 hour baby sitting? Digital or otherwise, Pfft. hell no.

Beautiful thinking - but unfortunately naive. I don't want to disillusion your idealism but unfortunately its a bad
world with a lot of bad people and some of these people are very, very intelligent. They will rob you, steal your identity and rape your cat if they can get away with it. Do you ever wonder why intelligence is often symbolized by the serpent [snale] all the way back to the mythical Garden of Eden?

If we didn't have watchers watching hte watchers other watchers would come along and ruin it for the previous watchers.

Originally posted by truthermantwo
If we didn't have watchers watching hte watchers other watchers would come along and ruin it for the previous watchers.

Humorous but true. The point being anonymity becomes an art in the internet/computer world. Data gathering
like dogs sniffing is inevitable. The master criminal leaves no tracks and the master super-cop still tracks him down.
And the NSA people are probably overpaid for their ineptitude - worry more about the master criminal then the NSA.

reply to post by AlienView

Beautiful thinking - but unfortunately naive. I don't want to disillusion your idealism but unfortunately its a bad world with a lot of bad people and some of these people are very, very intelligent. They will rob you, steal your identity and rape your cat if they can get away with it. Do you ever wonder why intelligence is often symbolized by the serpent [snale] all the way back to the mythical Garden of Eden?

Oh I get it now...

I see the problem in understanding this OP,

We have fundamentally different views on what the governments job is.

I don't believe government is there to protect me from every conceivable and possible threat, you do.

I believe it should exist to ensure my liberty, which is an oppositional idea to protecting me from every threat out there, as in order to do that it requires the stripping of my liberty in the first place.

Originally posted by AlienView

Originally posted by truthermantwo
If we didn't have watchers watching hte watchers other watchers would come along and ruin it for the previous watchers.

Humorous but true. The point being anonymity becomes and art in the internet/computer world. Data gathering
like dogs sniffing is inevitable. The master criminal leaves no tracks and the master super-cop still tracks him down.
And the NSA people are probably overpaid for their ineptitude - worry more about the master criminal then the NSA.

Time and action are funny things.
im still trying to adjust.

If data collection is such a good thing, why not make it a two way street?

The NSA has been collecting this data, but if someone like Snowden tells us they collect the data then that person is a criminal? The government can see how I spend my money, but I'm not allowed to know how my tax dollars are being spent on black budget projects? Kennedy was assasinated 60 years ago, and they are still withholding information from that investigation. The government can pull up my college transcripts, but Obama's are classified?

If I collected "meta-data" on the White House, Congress, and the Supreme Court, I'd go to prison for a long time. Why should they have more privacy rights than I do?

reply to post by AlienView


So just screw the 4th Amendment? The reason the founding fathers gave us the 4th amendment is because they hated the practice of the king in randomly rounding up groups of people to check their papers and search for contraband. That why they gave us a system of due process.