Is Love and Happiness an illusion? (Scientific Evidence?)

reply to post by Bluesma



“English being my second language” I can hope maybe someone else will consider the idea of reality not being a “blue ball” or any describable object. Now you are confusing objects with reality.

I repeated some points for you there is not much else to do.

On your topic argument ALEXITHEMIA” (people who are said to be unempathetic).
Testing of the neurotransmitters in the brain has not been done on these people. In psychology no testing for neurotransmitters is done in order to ascertain the “chemical problem” and treat it with chemicals.
If, as you said, these unempathetic people can describe all the physiological signs of anxiety (sweating hands, fast heart rate, etc.) what does this even mean to you ? Remembering they have not have their brain neurotransmitters or neural pathways tested in a study. That they can feel the physical effects of chemicals but not the mental effects [or] not identify the way they feel in words( [or ]cannot say the word which is signal block in the language center.
They cannot make the case for the argument as they are getting chemicals and experiencing effects of them and the OP asked without the chemicals would one be closer to reality.
Alexithemia ( a label) cannot be used to measure any ones awareness.
Alexithymia, is not a “disorder” anymore than being “very empathetic” is, nor is it found to be a neurotransmitter imbalance. There is not test for it and chemicals in the brain of people diagnosed with it are not checked. They did not , and do not, take samples of neurotransmitters from the brain. A small genetics and a hormone study was done. There is no gene for it and the hormone study was sixty male students to receive either oxytocin (OT) or a placebo (PL), and had them perform the Reading the Mind and there was no conclusive findings.It was irrelevant and I still don't know why you brought it up.

The "love" of truth-(of the real) love is not emotion, it’s a state of being- Knowing- loving.
I said I was "happy"- never said I was experiencing emotions while also rejecting them that is what you alleged I said.


How you can tell your subjective world is not an illusion created by your mind.
It’s your mind that tells you what is real and its unreliable. Scientists (like Damasio) had no answers either, nor have any of those who say they search objectivity with a subjective biased mind. And you think his subjective mind (with his desire to prove his idea) is somehow objective. If many people are lost in ignorance it does not mean they are knowledgeable if the size of the group gets large enough.If enough people are wrong it doesn't make them right.

We disagreed when you supported a position that is heavy on the importance of the role of emotions in decision making. Using a case study of Gage’s prefrontal brain injury for the argument when he had damaged his executive part of his brain not his limbic system and he was emotive. I point out decisions that do no harm to others can be made without using emotions and when one is being in the moment. Without fear and desire the likes and dislikes that attract the emotions.



Which goes back to the idea of being in the moment and how you cannot do it emotively driven by fear and desires, by your memories, living in a mental state of the past or imagining the future never in the now where reality resides.

Originally posted by BDBinc
reply to post by Bluesma

 

“English being my second language” I can hope maybe someone else will consider the idea of reality not being a “blue ball” or any describable object. Now you are confusing objects with reality.

I repeated some points for you there is not much else to do.

In english "to repeat" is not the same as "to explain" or "to elaborate".
Since this is a topic based on scientific data, then it is appropriate to consider reality as including physical objects.... unlike in a topic which focuses on spiritual beliefs, in which I would make no such assertions.
Context.

Testing of the neurotransmitters in the brain has not been done on these people.

From one of the links I put up for you;

Brain imaging studies have demonstrated an association between neurotransmitter function and affective disorders as well as personality traits. Here, we first examined the relationship between alexithymic facets as assessed with the Toronto Alexithymia Scale (TAS-20) and interoceptive awareness (assessed with the Body Perception Questionnaire) in 18 healthy subjects. Second,
we investigated their association with glutamate and gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) concentrations in the left insula and the ACC using 3-Tesla proton magnetic resonance spectroscopy

The association of interoceptive awareness and alexithymia with neurotransmitter concentrations in insula and anterior cingulate.

In psychology no testing for neurotransmitters is done in order to ascertain the “chemical problem” and treat it with chemicals.

No one but you suggested treatment with chemicals would be a motivation. In Neuroscience, research like this is done with the intent of learning more about the brain.

The question explored in such studies is- when a person does not feel any emotions, and they think they have none, is that a reliable indicator of reality? Does it mean there are no physiological states of emotion happening in the body and brain?

Which goes back to the idea of being in the moment and how you cannot do it emotively driven by fear and desires, by your memories, living in a mental state of the past or imagining the future never in the now where reality resides.

Driven by fear and desires indicates to me that you are refering to very subjective experiences when you say "emotions". I am not talking about such subjective experiences such as Fear and Desire- those are "sentiments", or "feelings".
Somewhat like the "visible light" part of the EM spectrum, those are just one part of the spectrum of emotion, the part we are most aware of.

In this topic, which is about the scientific findings on emotion, I refer to the physiological states inside the physical body. It could be a very subtle attraction or repulsion reaction (based on things like familiarity, or past pleasurable associations) which has the effect of opening the pupils wider, or slightly speeding up the heart... but even those, you might not be aware is happening to you.

Also, many form attraction reflexes in mind to the perception of attaining knowledge, so that when they feel they have knowledge, they get a little spurt of feel good chemicals inside. This is an association often conditioned because of past experiences of various sorts in which the the experience of "knowing" came with pleasurable effects (respect or acknowledgement from others, attention, the ability to solve problems relieve restrictions, empower oneself...)

So everytime you repeat "Happiness = Knowing" I cannot tell from that sentence, how you are differenciating it from the very common state of emotive happiness association with knowledge.

reply to post by Bluesma

Originally posted by Bluesma
So everytime you repeat "Happiness = Knowing" I cannot tell from that sentence, how you are differenciating it from the very common state of emotive happiness association with knowledge.

edit on 31-7-2013 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)

Maybe this will help.

Or maybe not.

reply to post by Itisnowagain


I am somewhat familiar with the viewpoint you have, that if one is not in that state of "happiness", then one is necesarily in a state of suffering and searching, and perception of lack. (if I have understood correctly, it is what you have described in the past and what this woman repeats).

If that is what you experience, I believe you and trust that you are telling the truth, and that perhaps you are not even the only one. Many people on spiritual "searches" describe this (which is of course, their initial motivation for beginning their spiritual search !). The describe that a certain chosen point of view, or belief, provides them with an continual re-production of feeling good- they simply remind themselves, and the "search" is no more, and a feeling of fulfillment happens.

Though this is extremely interesting and valuable information for anyone who shares that "suffering" or lack, as a method for relieving it, it doesn't much attend to the question of how that feeling you have created with your inner vision or belief, is an "illusion" or not..... which from my point of view is secondary to the interesting way our thoughts can cause a physiological state in the body.


editted to add- I love the fly part, in which she is talking about relieving oneself of the feeling of anxiety, contraction, and lack of comfort, as she keeps trying to swipe away the fly that keeps landing on her face! When she finally decides to apply what she is saying, you can watch her visible stop, make the effort to adjust her perception, and suddenly let the fly walk on her face as she begins to smile. It shows how conscious and purposeful this method must be applied on a minute to minute basis.

Here is some interesting information in regard to Happiness and The Brain:

Reducing Pain and Unpleasantness

After meditation training, the subjects reported a 40 percent decrease in pain intensity and a 57 percent reduction in pain unpleasantness. And it wasn’t just their perception of pain that changed. Brain activity changed too.

Matthieu Ricard - The Buddhist Monk called The happiest man in the world.

The scans showed that when meditating on compassion, Ricard's brain produces a level of gamma waves -- those linked to consciousness, attention, learning and memory -- "never reported before in the neuroscience literature",

The scans also showed excessive activity in his brain's left prefrontal cortex compared to its right counterpart, giving him an abnormally large capacity for happiness and a reduced propensity towards negativity

The Happiest Countries

Professor of Economics Christian Bjørnskov from Aarhus Business School knows all about happiness, he even wrote his PhD on the subject. “The happiness surveys normally ask people to evaluate their lives. Research show what makes the Danes so happy is that they are very trusting of other people they don’t know. Trust helps make people happy. Also just as importantly, Danes feel empowered to be able to change something in their life if they don’t like it,” he says.

“The great thing about Danish society is that it doesn’t judge other people’s lives. It allows them to choose the kind of life they want to live, which is sometimes not always possible in other countries, so this helps add to the overall satisfaction of people living here,” he adds.

It also seems the Danes attitude to money is refreshing different from other countries. “Money is not as important in the social life here, as for example Britain and America. We probably spend our money differently here. We don’t buy big houses or big cars, we like to spend our money on socialising with others,” concludes the Professor.

"Compassion", "Socializing", it seems like all of these studies that focuses on happiness seems to come to the conclusion that Happiness involves feeling a bond with others rather than being alone, but in my opinion, even being alone is peaceful... in fact, it can even be more peaceful depending on the situation.

Originally posted by Bluesma
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

I am somewhat familiar with the viewpoint you have, that if one is not in that state of "happiness", then one is necesarily in a state of suffering and searching, and perception of lack. (if I have understood correctly, it is what you have described in the past and what this woman repeats).

If that is what you experience, I believe you and trust that you are telling the truth, and that perhaps you are not even the only one. Many people on spiritual "searches" describe this (which is of course, their initial motivation for beginning their spiritual search !). The describe that a certain chosen point of view, or belief, provides them with an continual re-production of feeling good- they simply remind themselves, and the "search" is no more, and a feeling of fulfillment happens.

Though this is extremely interesting and valuable information for anyone who shares that "suffering" or lack, as a method for relieving it, it doesn't much attend to the question of how that feeling you have created with your inner vision or belief, is an "illusion" or not..... which from my point of view is secondary to the interesting way our thoughts can cause a physiological state in the body.


editted to add- I love the fly part, in which she is talking about relieving oneself of the feeling of anxiety, contraction, and lack of comfort, as she keeps trying to swipe away the fly that keeps landing on her face! When she finally decides to apply what she is saying, you can watch her visible stop, make the effort to adjust her perception, and suddenly let the fly walk on her face as she begins to smile. It shows how conscious and purposeful this method must be applied on a minute to minute basis.

edit on 31-7-2013 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)

The point is that there is no you doing any of it.
Pain, pleasure, happiness, sadness as well as anything that happens is just happening - the idea that you made it happen or can avoid any of it is the suffering.
All is just arising in what you are - all of it is just happening. When this is totally realized (not just intellectually) then the seeking for something other than what is happening will cease and there is peace. All is arising unconditionally whether it is know or not.
There is no you that has any control. What you are is simply emptiness perceiving.
You are all seeing and all knowing and ever present.

reply to post by arpgme


Isn't it fascinating? Just look at how well hypnosis works, even for surgery! My next door neighbor is an anesthesiologist, and is using hypnosis more than drugs now.

How we control our experience through thought is amazing!

I was reading some studies recently on the famous "morosity" of the french people- though their living conditions are some of the best in the world, they spend more time complaining and getting depressed than anyone else.

One theory that seems to hold up rather well is that it is their lack of challenges and their point of view that they do not have control over their lives as individuals. Their life is too easy, and they spend too much time blaming others for what happens to them, or feeling powerless against destiny or "the way things are".

It seems that part of our brain which like to claim control and responsibility (the "I meant to do that" part ) is the part which keeps the feel good juice flowing and keeping back the blues!

Just in choosing to see yourself as powerful, you can change your physiology.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

The point is that there is no you doing any of it.
Pain, pleasure, happiness, sadness as well as anything that happens is just happening - the idea that you made it happen or can avoid any of it is the suffering.
All is just arising in what you are - all of it is just happening. When this is totally realized (not just intellectually) then the seeking for something other than what is happening will cease and there is peace. All is arising unconditionally whether it is know or not.
There is no you that has any control. What you are is simply emptiness perceiving.
You are all seeing and all knowing and ever present.

Yeah. I'm familiar with that point of view, and you refer to videos of this person often in threads.

I sometimes wonder why there is so often the inclusion of everyone else in this discussion of "suffering", as if everyone else ALSO feels a suffering of this sort when not in a state of selfless passivity.

Some people experience self awareness and total acceptance of all in the moment, and it doesn't feel like a "searching" to change anything or a "suffering".
The perception that an I exists, that has the power to influence experience if it chooses to, doesn't necessarily feel uncomfortable..to everyone. For some it is a peaceful experience too.

But I guess we all have the first impulsion to assume everyone is the same as ourselves. especially if we make effort to erase such a distinction.

Originally posted by Bluesma
I sometimes wonder why there is so often the inclusion of everyone else in this discussion of "suffering", as if everyone else ALSO feels a suffering of this sort when not in a state of selfless passivity.

You are missing the point - there is no 'everyone' There is only one but the one can be divided from itself and then it seeks to find itself.
There is seeking or finding.
Seeking is suffering. The end of seeking (finding) is happiness.

Do you feel at home where ever you are?

There's a joy or a sense of dignity when you're on your own, mentally. I could probably be on drugs now if I wanted to. Really, I could be. I was with a psychotherapist several years ago and he recommended me to research psychotropic drugs to reduce my social anxieties. See, I have a long history of problems interacting with others around me. Believe me, if I wanted drugs, I could get them. However, I don't want them. Strange as it may seem to others, but my native self is my sense of identity. Everytime I make a choice and get a positive result from it, I get this feeling of reward. Now, I may be hurting myself in the long run by braving this world on my own, but somehow the thought of drugging up does not give me feelings of dignity or self-respect.

I could sit here and I could run down a list of negative things about my personality or mental state. Honestly, I also show signs of having aspergers or ocd or ocpd, not just sad. But you know what? I'd rather live with these challenges and forge my own path. I know there're other people reading this who might be angry at me or feel sorry for me, but understand that -I- want to make my own choice. Without my ability to make my own choice, there's no dignity. So don't shed any tears for me.

Call me stubborn or hard-headed. It really is about dignity. I respect my genetics. They may be faulty, but I believe if I give them a chance they'll work something out. It's faith. If they fail, so be it. It wouldn't be the first time a person has failed in life - I hear it has happened before.

I say these words with sincerity.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by Bluesma
I sometimes wonder why there is so often the inclusion of everyone else in this discussion of "suffering", as if everyone else ALSO feels a suffering of this sort when not in a state of selfless passivity.

You are missing the point - there is no 'everyone' There is only one but the one can be divided from itself and then it seeks to find itself.
There is seeking or finding.
Seeking is suffering. The end of seeking (finding) is happiness.

Do you feel at home where ever you are?

I feel like I am where I am, and that is enough. "At home" is an experience that I would describe as being in a place I am familiar with and identify strongly with". Sometimes I am at home and sometimes I am in places that are new or different from home... and that is a pleasant too.

I don't really desire or search to have that "at home" experience in every moment.


I get the point, I just am more interested in other points at the moment.

I understand you are on a focus of not acknowledging I, or anyone else, exists, so you cannot acknowledge that I or anyone else might not be experiencing this suffering or seeking you experience.
But there really isn't anything I could do to change that, and I don't feel I need to.

reply to post by Bluesma

Originally posted by Bluesma
I was reading some studies recently on the famous "morosity" of the french people- though their living conditions are some of the best in the world, they spend more time complaining and getting depressed than anyone else.

Wow, I heard about The Danes being some of the happiest but I didn't hear about "Morosity". It's interesting because someone can be rich and commit suicide from depression while a homeless person can be smiling all day even though they don't have anything. Happiness is in the way of thinking.

Originally posted by Bluesma
One theory that seems to hold up rather well is that it is their lack of challenges and their point of view that they do not have control over their lives as individuals.

If you have come to a place in life where you are at complete desperation. Then giving up all responsibility and believing in destiny may make you feel better. If your life is going horrible and there is nothing you can do, the only thing that can make you happy IS believing that it is ALL out of my hands and in the hands of faith. Believing in destiny can bring comfort, just as a child is happy to be taken cared of by the parent rather than taking on the 'scary' world by themselves.

Even happiness with the belief in "free-will" or "destiny" is in the mind.

To one, free-will may mean feeling "lost" while destiny may mean "It is all taken care of". While to another, free-will may mean "I am strong and power to live the life I want" while destiny means "I am limited and my personality means nothing since it is already planned".

Personally, I like the idea of free-will better because that is the way we are all naturally born to believe and it is the way that we can most influence the world.

We only feel "bad" about the choices we made or "scared" about the choices we WILL make because of self judgment.

If we learn to love our choices, whether they are good or bad, we can be proud of ourselves and give ourselves a pat on the back for choosing that experience and learning something new from it.

Originally posted by Bluesma

It seems that part of our brain which like to claim control and responsibility (the "I meant to do that" part ) is the part which keeps the feel good juice flowing and keeping back the blues!

Definitely; and to not judge yourself for your choice but to just see it as a learning experience will keep the negative self-judgments away.

Originally posted by Bluesma

I don't really desire or search to have that "at home" experience in every moment.


I get the point, I just am more interested in other points at the moment.

See that you are always home and know real 'happiness'.

Id say illusion due to im low on chemicals now and happy romance and ambition is taken if one is not strong in themselves like me.

reply to post by BDBinc

Originally posted by BDBinc
reply to post by Bluesma

 

“English being my second language” I can hope maybe someone else will consider the idea of reality not being a “blue ball” or any describable object. Now you are confusing objects with reality.

You are speaking about reality as if it is something separate. Reality is everything that exists. There is no such thing as being " a part of" reality. There is only reality and non-existence and nonexistence does not exist so in reality there is only reality. There is only 1 not 2, so reality can't be a "part" of anything nor can anything be a "part" or reality.

A ball is reality, a human is reality, the earth is reality.

Thoughts are reality too, they just exist in a different way. They exist as energy (neural synapses) and not as a physical object made of atoms.

Originally posted by arpgme
Thoughts are reality too, they just exist in a different way. They exist as energy (neural synapses) and not as a physical object made of atoms.

Only what is existing now is existing. And what is existing is only appearing to exist and then disappears and reforms to shape something new. Really though nothing ever truly forms a shape - it is flowing.
It is only words that try to grasp and shape the ungraspable ever changing forming.

reply to post by arpgme


You are an illusion, a whirlwind for a moment in eternity.

I'm going to analyze this later. But I got something for the people who read this to think about:

"Don't work for your chemicals, let the chemicals work for you."

Not that it worked out that great with me. I was flying high on dopamine and serotonin without taking drugs.
I loved everything, everything was beautiful. I actually "stole" a red rose from someone's garden and put it inside my jacket. I laughed at something that wasn't even funny, but I laughed immensely. It was a nice experience, BUT:

I was flying high but I was too close to the sun. The melting wax caused me to fell down from the skies into the depths of the sea. I didn't drown though, I know the depths of the sea I've been there most of my life, so I swim back up. I want to get used to both the depths of the sea and the heights of the sky.

Someone here said that the attraction stage is not love. It's true. I know that. But this girl, she ruins everything.
She's my addiction, my obsession and my desire. I don't know her, but I feel intense desire to her., it ain't healthy. The scary thing is that she seems to be attracted towards me too. It's a curse, I hate it. If only she rejected me or turned out to be nothing special at all.

In fact she's part of the wings that made me fly high. I want to neutralize her or abolish her. I'm kind of afraid that I would actually fall for her. It's my struggle with my happy chemicals, they may deceive me or maybe they are right. Rationally I prefer the first, but ultimately I like the later.

Ok enough about that, here's something interesting about love:

www.youramazingbrain.org...

Also, in the animal kingdom, those couples that stay together for life, the female (?the male too?) seeks pleasures outside of her life partner. There was a study that females get bored with their partner:

www.dailymail.co.uk...

But they draw the wrong conclusion that monogamy doesn't work. That's only true if you think it's the sexual part that only matters or matters the most.