OT- I was just wondering because I thought it was illegal to display in Germany.

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I have serious thoughts of leaving the US.

It isn't just Bush. It is the large number of Americans that voted for him. Some of whom are thrilled with him and what he has done to/for America. It is many Republicans they have elected, many of whom are caustic in their right-wing certainty.

I'm gay, we are the minority group whom it is still socially acceptable to discriminate right out in the open. Especially revolting is the abuse that is openly heaped on adolecent gays. That is a sin.

America is losing it's technological edge as well. Less young people are studying engineering, science and math.

The Global market has made competition tougher, but America instead of stepping up to the plate with everything it has, has instead decided to retreat into superstitious ignorance. I unlike many, don't believe America has any 'special' 'blessed by god' place in the world. Like the little red hen, If you don't do the work you don't get the benefits. The English at one time thought they were the 'Christian gift bearers of civilization to the world'. When you get 'full of yourself' you are probably going to fall, sooner or later. And the longer you cling to a lot of 'dead weight' ideas the longer it takes you to get back up again. The winners in the long run are those who are hungriest for it and tenacious about it.

The Republican massaganists [read Rove etc.] have manipulated the hot-buttons of some less than estute members of this society.

This country is beginning to have more in common with Saudia Arabia & Iran in it's religious-political merger.

I grew up thinking [somewhat naively] that America was a beacon of hope and freedom. A place open to all, where you were free to make your dreams come true. Reading history I am aware that it was not always the case, but I thought 'now we are that'. But no, the terrorists have won, the ignorant have won, the people who would nothing of killing tens of thousands of people in a far away land for a mistake have won.

Thinking people have lost and marketeering mind manipulators have won.
You would think that in a society that is so commercial that people would know when they were being 'played', but obviously not.

The Big corporations have won, the religious right has won, the war-hawks have won. I suspect rather strongly that the people have lost.

You can not teach people, deeply and emotionally, the things the Universe has not, by experience, taught them.

It is illogical to live with the results of what ignorance, unawareness, blindness, unfeelingless & superstition will bring about.

How did my ancestors get to America? They left a place that was bad for them and went to a better one. What am I thinking of doing? Leaving a place that is bad for me and going to a better one.

If the mountain will not come to Mohammed, Mohammed will go to the mountain.

It's called voting with your feet.
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Ah well said. You laid it all out. So would you come back and if so do you think that you would have to immigrate to do so?

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It will not be easy for me to emmigrate out. I am not rich nor highly skilled, but may be able to manage it.

I thought i was pretty well settled here in the US, but have serious qualms about staying here.

Whether or not you think the Bush administration orchestrated 911 or not, I am sort of superstitious about some things. Some people just seem to attract bad luck. Sort of like some subtle aspect of physics. Objectively He and his supporters have virtually painted a big bullseye on the US with the pointless invasion of Iraq and prisoner abuse at Abu Grabe and Guantanamo. You know how some people just 'like to fight'? I grew up in a small town and there were lots of dumb guys who just seemed to want to get into a fight every friday and saturday night.

If I get settled in some other stable country, I don't see any particular reason to come back to the US. I am hoping the west coast of Canada wouldn't be too cold to live in. I am older and don't relish the idea of picking up and moving. It sounds like a huge project. And that is dependant on being able to emmigrate to Canada or possibly Australia.

I am not a flag waving patriot type. I would go where-ever it seems sensible or necessary to go. I think I could get behind Canada much better now than the US at this point. I only speak English and am not so young that i romanticize going to a foreign country. But Canada sounds interesting or maybe Australia.

Really all I am looking for is a decent place to live and grow old in. A reasonable economy and some kind of intellectual stimulation.

While I am not the 'pick of the litter' so to speak, any nation interested in keeping on the forefront of technological advances would do well to be inviting to the most highly skilled, best educated and creative people. The US isn't doing well in that department today IMO.
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I appreciate your answer. But things such as what happened at Abu Grabe have been happening for centuries by us and our enemies. Thomas Moe a friend of ours ( I had a CRUSH on his daughter ) was a prisoner of war courtesy of the NVA in the Hanoi Hilton. Contrary to some beliefs almost if not all of the prisoners 'broke' from torture. Col. Moe told of having his arms tied behind his back from wrist to elbow so his elbows were touching and then being hoisted aloft by his arms. He prayed for unconsiousness. The Japanese in WWII were not any less brutal. What the Japanese did to the Chinese makes Hitler look like a wanna be.

Its always happened, it just has not always been caught on tape.

[edit on 11/10/2004 by just_a_pilot]

we here say ok to freedom and happiness. you take the first step to your own choices then letting someone else decide your life....

Well said Slank.

I no longer live in America, I moved almost four years ago. Not for political reasons really, I just needed the fresh air so to speak. I was sufficating in Texas, I grew up in a very small town, so all ideas seemed to merge and conform into one. And anybody opposed to it was left out in the rain or thought of as "off" or ....liberal. lol Now I live in Germany, settled down and things are going good.

I am not un-patriotic or even patriotic, I feel no ties or boundries connected to a town, country or land. For that matter I always feel like I am searching for something lol. I know it isn't normal or easy for most people to just pick up and go without giving it a second thought, but I find making a hasty exit very liberating. And if some Americans feel like they can do no more for the usa then leaving isnt such a bad idea, go with your instincts and you'll know whats right for you.

Gala

*spelled your name wrong slank oops

[edit on 10-11-2004 by Gala-Kemen]

Where in Germany did you move to? I fell in love with Garmisch. There was a bed and breakfast I used to stay at there and the lady of the house always took care of me like I was her son. I would go skiing at Zugspitze. One day after skiing the tram back to the bottom broke and we ended up sitting on top drinking beer and carrying on. I got back to the house around 2am and she let me in then carried on just like my mom would about how worried she was. She to this day is one of my favorite persons in the world.

I'm sad to inform you, Slank, that every country suffers from it's share of gay bashing. I supposed only the degrees vary. I'm sure you know that already though. Even in Sweden, the land of the supposed sexual freedom, we are not immune. We have our share of neo-fascists and religious groups (not linking the two) making life difficult for the gay people.

Where the saying"

"When the going get's tought, the tough get going"

Just doesn't apply! I find it repulsive that Americans posture like weak, ignorant monkeys and are TALKING about leaving there country.

As others have stated: GO.....but ya know...let's end this conversation because it's obvious..if we ever had to depend on them to watch our backs...they would be the ones pushing the knife into it.

Please, if we can start a fund to help expedite your exodus please advise.

Sincere wishes for a speedy departure,

Enigma

Nope I live in North Rhine-Westphalia, but I have seen Zugspitze on my way to Italian side of the Alps. I live in between Essen and Dortmund, its busy here but there are alot of forest parks every where that make it really beautiful. But I am constantly traveling to other nearby countries for holidays, I can never sit still in one place too long.


-Gala

enigmalone


Just because somebody wants to leave their country, doesnt make them a weak or ignorant. The fact you just said that shows your own timorous disposition. But hopefully the person is mature enough to decide when its time for them to move on and get the hell out. I find it disturbing you have such hate in your heart for an individuals decision and even more so knowing that alot of Americans carry your same sentiment. Whats the world coming to?

By all means go to Canada if you want (kinda cold for me, but each to his own...). Seems to me, though, that if you really fear Bush & his gang then Canada probably isn't far enough (either geographically or politically).

I've been to many countries, and they all have their own problems. The beauty of the good ole US is - in my humble opinion - that it's so huge & so varied that you can find just about any lifestyle you want.

All this worry about "Big Brother" seems a bit overblown. People who go about their own (lawful) business don't have much to fear from Authority.

I'd be worried about the draft, too, if I was that age. But I don't think it's going to come to that.

Most importantly: many of the people who voted for Bush did so because they saw him of the lesser of two evils (the dangerous moron you know or the slimy radical you don't know, not much of a choice...). If the pathetic Democrats had come up with a halfway reasonable alternative, that person would be busy getting ready for his inaguration right now. And then you wouldn't have needed to move to Canada...

[edit on 11-11-2004 by Azeari of the Radiant Eye]