Leaving the United States? Research.

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posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 04:56 PM
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I keep seeing posts about people saying they are leaving the country because of Bush being re-elected.

Why would you do that? Does that mean you only want to leave until the next election? If so do you come back to vote and if your candidate looses again you leave again? If you do become an expatriot can you vote in the next election? Where would your ward be?

I am interested. Why not stay and keep campaigning for your views? Does anyone really think by them leaving that makes a difference to the rest of the public who stays?




posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 05:11 PM
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yes, that's what I think, why leave you're only lowering the support for the platform on which you stand.

It's probably better to stay and wait, gain more support, than to just leave and wipe your own party out



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 05:20 PM
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Personally, the reason I applied for immigration to Canada back in May wasn't to impress or influence anyone here, but in the hopes of finding a safer place to live for myself. By safer, I mean safeguarding my personal freedoms, i.e. no patriot act, etc.

I don't expect to hear more about the application for another couple of months, then I have a big choice to make. I'm still going back & forth about the whole thing, bit I'm really happy I got in line when I did. It took from January1, 2004 until May just to get all the required documentation together, not to mention the hefty application fee. Also, you have to show you have enough *cash* in the bank to support yourself & family for 6 months. And you have to keep that money in the bank up until the day you cross the border to Canada. This meant I had to plan far enough ahead to sell my property, and in the area I lived, that was no small trick. While waiting, I moved to a really nice town, with colleges and free thinkers and a democratic movement.

So I'm really torn between taking the risk of leaving behind my country, my family, home, job, and so on, and the risk of getting stuck in a regime that "burns witches" (that's not meant literally, I hope). When I get notice from Canada to take the next immigration step, I have to bet my whole future on how wacked things will really get here.

I don't think votes count anymore, and I cannot live under a religious dictatorship. SO I don;t know if me staying and fighting will just get me gitmo'ed. What a waste of a chance at life in a freer country. But if this mess is jsut a glitch that I could help fix by staying, what a waste to dump all my assets to be a penniless immigrant.

AAARGHHH!!!



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 05:26 PM
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Yeah that would be a hard decision on your part. I just think staying and trying ( although it may not be much ) to make a difference makes more sense. Just my opinion. I guess I just want to know how much of all of this is 'blowing smoke' and how much is 'the grass is always greener' syndrom.

Talk is cheap ( not speaking of you, you have a delima that I do get ).

If you say you are gonna do it, then do it and don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya.

[edit on 11/9/2004 by just_a_pilot]



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 05:30 PM
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If you don't like it here then leave. I have no problem with that


Thats one of your great freedoms.



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 05:30 PM
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Dont let the door hit you in the arse!!!!!!

Religious dictatorship, I think not, try getting more dems to vote next time. Also your vote does count, its sad to say but yes, we live in a time of uncertainy so do whats best for "you", Not your country, why should you, whats it done for you....uuuuurgh you people make me sick.. Your an American....... stand up and be one, help your neighbors, do whats right and live in the country many people sacrificed to come too. Dont run scared, you should be ashamed of yourself.



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 05:38 PM
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Originally posted by just_a_pilot


I am interested. Why not stay and keep campaigning for your views?
Many of us feel Bush will have the US in such a shambles...it's better to leave. I fear for my family under Bush....he's gonna have us burning at the stake again, woman back in the kitchen, and with the Patriot Act he will pass....freedom will be gone! We'll be afraid to voice any opposing opinion for fear of the FBI showing up at our door to go through our home because we said something derogatory about Lord Bush! People are scared.



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 05:44 PM
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Originally posted by Justmytype
Dont let the door hit you in the arse!!!!!!

Religious dictatorship, I think not, try getting more dems to vote next time. Also your vote does count, its sad to say but yes, we live in a time of uncertainy so do whats best for "you", Not your country, why should you, whats it done for you....uuuuurgh you people make me sick.. Your an American....... stand up and be one, help your neighbors, do whats right and live in the country many people sacrificed to come too. Dont run scared, you should be ashamed of yourself.


I guess if you aren't in someone else's shoes, you can say stupid things like that. If the proposed changes to our laws actually go through, I am at risk of disappearing. I was in Seattle for WTO, I saw how they handled people legally exercising their rights. Try to imagine doing the same thing when it's finally illegal. I did my time fighting the system and rebelling against "the man". My parents were hippies, for pete's sake! I saw where their efforts got them. Be realistic, if you have a family, how long are you going to fight for your "rights" when they are being harassed for a certain religion or formerly legal point of view.

THINK about it. Really think! It's all well & good to bluster about how you would do things differently, until they come a-knockin at your door. I for one am not sure if I want to wait til they come to my door, and I'm in a population group, in more ways than one, that the new regime has expressed desire to get rid of. I'm sure a lot of the Jews that lost their lives in Hitler's Germany would have run sooner had they known what staying meant.

But we all come at life from different perspectives and different maturity levels, and make decisions based on personal experience. I hope you enjoy enough personal experience to be able to relate better to others' points of view.

--Saerlaith



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 05:46 PM
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Originally posted by LadyV

Originally posted by just_a_pilot


I am interested. Why not stay and keep campaigning for your views?
Many of us feel Bush will have the US in such a shambles...it's better to leave. I fear for my family under Bush....he's gonna have us burning at the stake again, woman back in the kitchen, and with the Patriot Act he will pass....freedom will be gone! We'll be afraid to voice any opposing opinion for fear of the FBI showing up at our door to go through our home because we said something derogatory about Lord Bush! People are scared.


But does that mean you leave and come back when his term is over? I hope it does not come down to women/blacks......any minority has to go back 'in the kitchen'. That would be 10 steps back and absurd.



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 05:51 PM
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Here we go again with the radical references to Germany and the Holocaust. Man, you are way WAY out there. Nothing wrong with that I guess, but I can see why you would want to leave so badly then. If thats what you believe I mean.

I guess my feet are planted a bit more firmly on the ground, I don't see anything bad happening in the US under President Bush. I was actually more worried about Kerry taking over in our present situation. I would not, however, have left the country had Kerry won the election.

I don't trust the UN anymore than my ba**s in a vice so my opinion on Kerry was definantly influenced by that.

[edit on 9-11-2004 by LostSailor]



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 05:57 PM
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LostSailor..I am Wiccan, I am Native American and Italian, I am friendly to all.....gays, and all natioanalities....I am not overly fond of government. Hell yes I fear formy family!



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 06:06 PM
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Originally posted by LostSailor
Here we go again with the radical references to Germany and the Holocaust. Man, you are way WAY out there. Nothing wrong with that I guess, but I can see why you would want to leave so badly then. If thats what you believe I mean.

I guess my feet are planted a bit more firmly on the ground, I don't see anything bad happening in the US under President Bush. I was actually more worried about Kerry taking over in our present situation. I would not, however, have left the country had Kerry won the election.

I don't trust the UN anymore than my ba**s in a vice so my opinion on Kerry was definantly influenced by that.

[edit on 9-11-2004 by LostSailor]


But have you read the patriot act, and the text of some of the bills introduced to our lawmakers?? People got voted in who think wiccans, adulterers, abortion doctors and gays should be executed. That's scary!!

And as for having my feet on the ground, most of the really scary stuff I learned about here. I read the links provided, did my own research and so on. When I can go to governement sites and read for myself what has already been legislated by way of removing civil rights, it's not really a matter of me being out there. It's a matter of the people ready to implement the patriot act (and the other wacked acts) being out there. But they are in charge and have shown that they don't appreciate people looking too deeply into their (our) business.

So yeah, referring to the Holocaust is a big step, but even that started somewhere, and enough people blew off those steps until one day it was in their face. There's that proverbial frog in a pot of water that doesn't realize the water is getting hotter and hotter until it's cooked. I hope I am smarter than a frog, at least smart enough to learn from history.

And as for returning if/when things settle down - Well that's a tough one too. If my mind is made up that the best course for me & mine is to put my spirit and effort into a (in some ways) better form of government, then no, I wouldn't come back. FOr better or worse, I'd eventually become a Canadian. What most people don't know is that you can have dual citizenship, but you can't actually become a Canadian citizen until you've lived there 3 out of 4 years and taken a test. So in that time, you have no right to vote as a Canadian. And that's been on my mind too.

So it really isn't a spur of the moment, temper tantrum kind of thing. I'm thinking more about this decision than I did buying my house & land, and either one of my marriages. But I don't expect many people to understand that, as they are most likely not in the line of fire under the Bush regime.

--Saerlaith



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 06:08 PM
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I don't think anyone could honestly think of the President as anything close to what Hitler was. That would be just stupid. Period.

LadyV. I like the avatar



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 06:11 PM
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If people want to leave, by all means, they should.

However, doing it as some sort of political rebellion seems pretty stupid to me. All they are doing is weakening the voter base. It seems that their efforts could be more effectively be put to use campaigning their issues and trying to influence the next election than doing for self and leaving the country.



Originally posted by Saerlaith
I don't think votes count anymore, and I cannot live under a religious dictatorship. SO I don;t know if me staying and fighting will just get me gitmo'ed. What a waste of a chance at life in a freer country.

Do you really believe this is a religious dictatorship? Nobody is going to come to your door and take you away. That just seems like unjustified paranoia to me. I would be glad that you can speak out against the president or your issue of choice without fear of that happening. Try it in pre-war Iraq, and see what human paper shredder you get put into, feet first.



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 06:17 PM
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Originally posted by just_a_pilot
I don't think anyone could honestly think of the President as anything close to what Hitler was. That would be just stupid. Period.

LadyV. I like the avatar


Well Pilot, lots of people do. If you think I'm the first or only person to make that comparison, you're mistaken. In fact, if you keep up with posts here, you'd see well written articles about how Bush & Co. are doing many of the same things Hitler did to get and keep power. I'm not making it up, but I'm also not going to waste my time putting the relevant info under your nose if you ignored it the first time.

It is stupid to ignore the similarities, and stupid to ignore history. Bush may not be "anything close to what Hitler was" yet, but he's working on it. Like I asked you before, have you read the patriot act, and the myriad analyses of it posted here on ATS. Do your homework man!

--Saerlaith



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 06:20 PM
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You shouldn't be ashamed.

You have based your decisions on your perceptions and the specificities of your life(e.g. HAVING property to sell to meet Canada's immigration minimums). That's what everyone is always doing. Anyone confusing your experiences and decisions with your opinion of the political party behind it and trying to bring you down for acting upon your individual perceptions is imposing a fascism of Orwellien dimensions. I would imagine the people leaving Germany in early 1933 were probably scorned by their compatriots for not being nationalistic enough. History shows that you most certainly could be right.

If you're young enough to be hit by a draft, you might think twice about Canada. There were some rumors circulating a while back that the Canadian police were bound to uphold an American draft because of some agreement. Please U2U me if you get any reliable sources on this, as I'm hesitating about moving to Canada myself next year and would like to be better informed about Canadian enforcement of a Bush draft.

As for all those nay-sayers who would make comments about doors hitting your backside, make sure to answer them with your continued VOTE from your safehaven, wherever you settle (is anywhere *safe* in this situation?). While its true absentee ballots are as easily shredded as electronic vote boxes are rigged, that's as much as we can do, I guess.

I'm an expat living in Paris. Yes you can vote. You vote from your last US precint--right down to the local offices. In Canada, after a few years, I think they'll even give you a double nationality, and you can even vote after that.

Pilot, to address your questions: I moved out here for personal reasons, not political ones, but it didn't bother me to leave so much (both politically and to study abroad a bit). Normally, I wouldn't consider so much which party is in the White House, but what kind of liberties are being suspended in the name of security (or something else) before returning home. Politics is not sports for smart people, we shouldn't embrace "our" candidates like embrace "our" favorite football team. By rooting for this candidate or that, we move further and further away from thinking for ourselves.

Finally, as for the people that are back home that I'm not influencing, they made the choice to stay home. However, people also live outside the US. Poor muslim teenagers living in my Parisian neighborhood have decided maybe not all Americans are so bad after me defending the US from their violent verbal attacks. Staying home will and campaigning for my views (which I can do by internet just the same) will never touch the impact an American can have abroad. I'm fighting terrorism.



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 06:30 PM
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If Democrats/Liberals are the type of people who flee the country when their candidate isn't elected, what does it say to the rest of the country about them--and of the fitness of a Democratic/Liberal candidate to lead this country?

Don't you all understand that it paints a picture of Dems as being cry-babies--that it hurts the Dems's cause even more? As a person who voted Democrat all her life, I'm really embarrassed for my party--I don't know if I even want to call it "my party" anymore.

If the Democrats as a whole (and embodied in their candidate) cannot project an image of toughness, fortitude, and resolve there is no way in the world the Republicans will ever be unseated. Wipe the tears from your eyes, stop complaining about an event that has already happened and cannot be changed, and let your party know that they better get their act together.

Democrats need to be strong! With all due respect--this isn't projecting a lot of strength. It just plays into the Repub/Cons notion that Dems/Libs are weak, whiny, and unable to handle pressure.

(Also--maybe running a Jane Fonda-esque war protester & a personal injuries lawyer for president of the United States during a time of war wasn't the way to go. I have nothing again war protesters--but *really*. I blame the DNC.)



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 06:31 PM
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The problem is information overload. To HONESTLY BELIEVE that the President can even be equated to Hitler is nonsense. Anyone can put simularities with any head of state to Hitler. Whether it is Kennedy, Reagan, Truman, Eisenhower, Blair, Thatcher even the Pope. It seems that one reads something and before honestly researching it jumps on an idea and its off to the races.



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 07:08 PM
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While I agree to equate Bush with Hitler is far fetched, there is nothing wrong with comparing similarities between the actions and policies of the administration with those of pre-WW2 Germany. You just need to back it up.



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 07:28 PM
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I do agree with that. It is blanket statements such as that which cause unrest. Unless you can post facts supporting the claim it should be looked at with much skeptitism.





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