Would an Atheist Pray If..

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

No offence to other Christians, but I don't care what the churches teach, if it is not in line with scripture then I'm not buying it. I could quote a dozen scriptures which would show that apparently God does answer prayers, but I won't bore you with that. All throughout scripture people have prayed and God delivered, or should I say, changed his plan.

Oh! Well! If the Bible says so! Tell me, if Christians have this clear and open line to God's private red phone, what the heck are they praying for, that there is still so much misery in the world? Obviously, they're not praying for the right things!

Agreed!!

I've always felt like this...if they truly believed the have god's direct line, and prayer works, then they sure are praying for the wrong things.

Religion/Prayer is a selfish thing.

I remember posting this very sentiment on Facebook years ago...a friend asked god to help her with her chemistry exam....

Originally posted by Wonders
Technically speaking, it is by no means the sole responsibility to the parent for prayers for children, anyone can pray for a child and have the prayer answered, there are conditions, of course, as with any procedure.

I must also add that children can pray for themselves and have those prayers answered, I can attest to that.

Children are not born athiests IMO, they become athiests when they hear the message and reject it.

edit on 10/01/11 by Wonders because: To add.

Very untrue.

A child is born not knowing or caring about any god.

A child becomes 'religious' when they have been indocrinated by the religion of their caregiver.

Originally posted by ButterCookie


Religion/Prayer is a selfish thing.

I don't understand how prayer can be selfish when your doing it for someone else

Originally posted by RealTruthSeeker

Originally posted by ButterCookie


Religion/Prayer is a selfish thing.

I don't understand how prayer can be selfish when your doing it for someone else

Because with all the violence and suffereing in the world, it is arrogant to think that an omnipotent being is doing anything on your (or someone you pray for) behalf.

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

I don't understand how prayer can be selfish when your doing it for someone else

Because you are expecting your god to do it for you, instead of making that prayer come true by yourself. Many prayers have been answered because mankind gathered together and did what they felt they should do. The only role any deity played was in motivating them to do something they could have done anyway. As I said before, the "good of the community" is apparently no longer a good enough reason to proactively exercise compassion and kindness.

When it just important enough to ask our deity for help, but not important enough to do it ourselves, that's when things get a bit screwy...because if you're not willing to lend a hand in answering the prayer, why should your god do anything? He's only doing what you recognized the need for but was too lazy to do. That's what I call selfish.

Originally posted by ButterCookie

Originally posted by RealTruthSeeker

Originally posted by ButterCookie


Religion/Prayer is a selfish thing.

I don't understand how prayer can be selfish when your doing it for someone else

Because with all the violence and suffereing in the world, it is arrogant to think that an omnipotent being is doing anything on your (or someone you pray for) behalf.

That doesn't explain how prayer is selfish. Since when does asking for help selfish? The violence and suffering are happening because of man, not God. God may be allowing these to happen, but He is not the one doing it.

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

That doesn't explain how prayer is selfish. Since when does asking for help selfish? The violence and suffering are happening because of man, not God. God may be allowing these to happen, but He is not the one doing it.

If I give a man a gun and just stand by idly as he shoots another man in the confines of my home, I am held at least partially responsible for that assault by law. It occurred on my property as a result of my poor judgment in handing over that weapon and my subsequent refusal to take accountability for my actions before someone got hurt. I am complicit in the act.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

I don't understand how prayer can be selfish when your doing it for someone else

Because you are expecting your god to do it for you, instead of making that prayer come true by yourself. Many prayers have been answered because mankind gathered together and did what they felt they should do. The only role any deity played was in motivating them to do something they could have done anyway. As I said before, the "good of the community" is apparently no longer a good enough reason to proactively exercise compassion and kindness.

When it just important enough to ask our deity for help, but not important enough to do it ourselves, that's when things get a bit screwy...because if you're not willing to lend a hand in answering the prayer, why should your god do anything? He's only doing what you recognized the need for but was too lazy to do. That's what I call selfish.

edit on 23-7-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

You sound silly. No one is expecting anything, hoping would be the correct term. God will either say yes or no to prayer. Either way it's His choice. Just like it's your choice to give or not give your child a pop-sickle when they ask for it. But why would you say no to giving a pop-sickle?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

That doesn't explain how prayer is selfish. Since when does asking for help selfish? The violence and suffering are happening because of man, not God. God may be allowing these to happen, but He is not the one doing it.

If I give a man a gun and just stand by idly as he shoots another man in the confines of my home, I am held at least partially responsible for that assault by law. It occurred on my property as a result of my poor judgment in handing over that weapon and my subsequent refusal to take accountability for my actions before someone got hurt. I am complicit in the act.

You might be held responsible by law, but maybe your decision was justified, otherwise you would have never gave that man the gun, now would you?

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

You sound silly. No one is expecting anything, hoping would be the correct term.

Oh. So they have enough hope to pray, but not enough hope to get off their asses and do something about it. Okay, that makes it sound so much better.

God will either say yes or no to prayer. Either way it's His choice.

*cough* FRIGGIN' COP-OUTS!!! *cough cough*

...Sorry. Some incredulity got caught in my throat.

Just like it's your choice to give or not give your child a pop-sickle when they ask for it. But why would you say no to giving a pop-sickle?

You're avoiding the point. If people acted as much as they prayed, if they volunteered their time and services for the betterment of communities that needed such skills and constructive talent as much as they beseeched their god to intervene, things might be different.

You cannot argue that getting up and doing it yourself isn't more likely to succeed than asking a god to do it for you.

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

You might be held responsible by law, but maybe your decision was justified, otherwise you would have never gave that man the gun, now would you?

Interesting argument. How then do you justify God's creation of Satan, and his decision to unleash this ultimate force of evil on his most prized creations? I ask this while keeping in mind that this "God" is omniscient and therefore knew exactly what would happen every step of the way.

So what's your justification for that?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

You might be held responsible by law, but maybe your decision was justified, otherwise you would have never gave that man the gun, now would you?

Interesting argument. How then do you justify God's creation of Satan, and his decision to unleash this ultimate force of evil on his most prized creations? I ask this while keeping in mind that this "God" is omniscient and therefore knew exactly what would happen every step of the way.

So what's your justification for that?

edit on 23-7-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Satan was created in the same fashion as every other creature. The ability of free will. Satan rebelled on his own free will. Why? I don't know. God in His all knowing power saw everything ahead of time. He allowed things to play out the way they are now because that's the way He wanted it. He want's His creation to fully chose Him of their own free will and because they believe that He is. If God wanted robots to serve Him He would not have allowed things to play out this way.

God is love, but love is something that can never be forced on someone. You either love or you don't.

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

Satan was created in the same fashion as every other creature. The ability of free will. Satan rebelled on his own free will. Why? I don't know.

The fact remains that, according to the Bible's description of "God"s abilities, he knew exactly what would happen with Satan even before he created him. He thought, "If I make this guy, he will turn against me, and I will set him upon the human race, my most prized creation, and he will divide them and turn them against one another in order to turn them against me. This will cause thousands of years of pain and suffering and untold horrors which will scar countless lives and ruin many many more. ...Screw it, let's do it!"

Sounds like some solid reasoning.

God in His all knowing power saw everything ahead of time. He allowed things to play out the way they are now because that's the way He wanted it.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" - Epicurus

He want's His creation to fully chose Him of their own free will and because they believe that He is. If God wanted robots to serve Him He would not have allowed things to play out this way.

Then why would he ask such mechanical things of us? It is not enough that we are productive, we must serve him. It is not enough that we obey him, we must love him. It is not enough that we believe in him, we must place utter faith in him. If we choose anything other than him, we will be rejected and punished. If we choose anything other than him, we will suffer at the hands of minions serving a dark entity whom this god allowed to continue existing even at the cost of peace and harmony all around the world.

I don't understand any of this.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity

The fact remains that, according to the Bible's description of "God"s abilities, he knew exactly what would happen with Satan even before he created him. He thought, "If I make this guy, he will turn against me, and I will set him upon the human race, my most prized creation, and he will divide them and turn them against one another in order to turn them against me. This will cause thousands of years of pain and suffering and untold horrors which will scar countless lives and ruin many many more. ...Screw it, let's do it!"

Sounds like some solid reasoning.

Once you understand the concept of free will then maybe you'll understand. Sounds to me like you want to be a robot.

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker


You may wish to go back and reread my post. I added more to it.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Without of the knowledge of why you should serve God you would not be so grateful, just a robot which God created. You would only be serving God because that is all you know. But you would still have questions, these question would most likely be "Why do we serve God, and why should we obey?" You can't make a decision about good and evil unless you have seen both.

Originally posted by RealTruthSeeker

Originally posted by ButterCookie

Originally posted by RealTruthSeeker

Originally posted by ButterCookie


Religion/Prayer is a selfish thing.

I don't understand how prayer can be selfish when your doing it for someone else

Because with all the violence and suffereing in the world, it is arrogant to think that an omnipotent being is doing anything on your (or someone you pray for) behalf.

That doesn't explain how prayer is selfish. Since when does asking for help selfish? The violence and suffering are happening because of man, not God. God may be allowing these to happen, but He is not the one doing it.

And because the 'god' is allowing violence and suffering to happen, that should tell you that 1 of 2 thngs is evident:

1. He is NOT omnipotent/ all powerful

2. He simply does NOT care.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

That doesn't explain how prayer is selfish. Since when does asking for help selfish? The violence and suffering are happening because of man, not God. God may be allowing these to happen, but He is not the one doing it.

If I give a man a gun and just stand by idly as he shoots another man in the confines of my home, I am held at least partially responsible for that assault by law. It occurred on my property as a result of my poor judgment in handing over that weapon and my subsequent refusal to take accountability for my actions before someone got hurt. I am complicit in the act.

My point exactly!!

I have used this analogy when debating this topic with a religious friend...

You and I would not idly sit back and watch another death take place on our watch, which means that we have more morals than god.

You said that god will either say 'yes' or 'no'...

Do you realize that only having a 'one or the other' probability is not a miracle at work?

Either it will rain, or it won't. If I happen to say it will rain, that doesn't mean that I have performed a miracle.

Either you will get the job or you won't. Praying for it ahead of time, doing a wonderful resume and giving an awesome interview does not connotate that the 'prayer' worked.

Now, if you say, "God, send me a check from Bank of America of $50 million dollars signed by Donald Trump with a smiley face" and receive exactly that, THEN a miracle has been performed.

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

Once you understand the concept of free will then maybe you'll understand. Sounds to me like you want to be a robot.

Sounds to me like that's all your deity wanted in the first place.