The Zimmerman Effect

reply to post by TheRedneck


I have to say as a person who was the victim of a home invasion, by someone with absolutely no respect for anyone much less the authorities, prosecution of this person NEVER made me feel safe in any way. I knew one day he'd be free of prison and probably MORE likely to want to kill me than the night he stormed into my home, through my front door wielding a knife.

With that said, I probably appeared to most folks to be OVER zealous about my self defense, and the right to bear arms in my home, and definitely voiced my opinion of MY right to protect myself....and believe me...I would never allow anyone to come into my home again and LEAVE breathing. I understand this isn't the exact circumstance of Mr. Zimmerman, however I also understand that the prosecutor attempted to build a case against him based on his character and his possible OVER reaction, or desire to use a gun against someone.

At this point, I can only say that I am more than relieved to hear that he was found not guilty, it would (for personal reasons) disturb me a little bit to think that in the process of defending one's self, we may then be later convicted of a crime that we should not. This went to trial, and the EVIDENCE was presented... ultimately leading to a "not guilty" verdict... Thank Goodness!!!!

Apologies, but what I had to say could not be said briefly... my bad

Well, since the verdict is in, I guess I can tally up the results... thank you to everyone who responded.

Of those who felt more comfortable with the cop, the desired verdict was 2-1 for not guilty.

Of those who felt more comfortable with the thug, it was closer, but about 64% went for guilty.

Strangely enough, of the few who posted from outside the USA, the results were completely different... those who felt comfortable with the cop went for a guilty verdict and the one who felt more comfortable with the thug chose not guilty.

In the USA, only 56% were more concerned about the thug (over 4 out of 10 would trust a thug before they would a cop), while 80% of those outside the country felt that way. That tells me we are becoming more fearful of our law enforcement in the USA compared to outside the USA.

While the results were not exactly what I expected, they were indicative of a general movement toward a difference of opinion based on fear of authority within the United States. That, sadly, says a great deal to me about the state of our country. We have lost our faith in law enforcement and are becoming polarized along a new division besides the tired old divisions of race, income, class, etc.

TheRedneck

Why can't I reply in the Zimmerman trial thread?

Anyway, I watched the verdict as it was read on Fox and it looks like common sense prevailed.

No other verdict would have made sense....

anywho, now I can't wait for the eventual book about the trial...

Came in late, removed my vote :p

Interesting results, thanks The Redneck!

reply to post by TheRedneck


NOT GUILTY. his life is already ruined and the evidence is not there. Just terribly unfortunate circumstances.

Edit: didn't realize he already concluded. Apologies

U.S. here,

Police officer, because a street thugs powers to harm me are minimal
compared to a crooked officials.

Not guilty.

reply to post by TheRedneck


I would be more weary of a cop.
Not guilty.
Born and raised in the tri-state. In canada now.

Ah looks like I missed the last call, oh well. Interesting idea none the less.

Just here to admit that your theory is wrong. Aside from the few people who are always talking about "news" in my area, nobody really cares about the Zimmerman trial. Most of us realize that there's always a case overlapping every part of American media, and very rarely is it ever important.

The reason for over publicizing these cases is quite obvious by now. Ratings. Oj, Scott Peterson, Casey Anthony, Zimmerman, plus the many, many more.. By becoming attached to these cases, you're just feeding the media moguls pockets. None of them deserved the publicity they got. Thousands of identical crimes occur year round and don't get the "right place at the right time" attention that these cases get. It's real simple. It's about numbers. If you're gullible enough to fall into the trap, I hope it keeps you entertained.

I suggest you worry more about the fact that over 40 people are murdered in the US every single day, and none of them get ANY attention. What makes this one more important than the others?


Cheers,
Nos

reply to post by TheRedneck

Originally posted by TheRedneck
While the results were not exactly what I expected, they were indicative of a general movement toward a difference of opinion based on fear of authority within the United States. That, sadly, says a great deal to me about the state of our country. We have lost our faith in law enforcement and are becoming polarized along a new division besides the tired old divisions of race, income, class, etc.

TheRedneck

These results beg the question (to me, anyway) "WHY are we more fearful and less trustworthy of our law enforcement"?

My initial answer would be that, as this nation falls apart, people in general are less trustworthy and compassionate and more power-hungry, so naturally, a segment of the population, whether it be cops, politicians or corporate CEOs, are going to exhibit this character flaw in greater numbers.

It is very sad, indeed, but indicative of more than a polarization. It's indicative of this country's downfall, IMO.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
That tells me we are becoming more fearful of our law enforcement in the USA compared to outside the USA.

It's not the cops that I find fearful ... it's the higher establishment ... NSA and (In)Justice Dept.
That kind of thing. The average cop on the street? Naaah. It's the big guys you have to watch out for.
IMHO

reply to post by Nostalgic

There's no question the media is after ratings. That much is self-evident. But I disagree that no one is interested. I know a few people who were so involved in the trial they were upset when it concluded and were complaining it needed to go on longer. Even those I know who don't normally take an interest in stuff like this would, if asked, expound on why they thought who was at fault.

That's why I was so surprised when some posters actually had trouble making a decision. I want to think it was because the evidence contradicted their gut instinct, but I can't honestly make that leap and still call this a survey. As it is, it is unscientific (as in not double-blind with a small number of responses); were I to start trying to interpret answers it would be completely unreliable.

I did not include any ambiguous answers, by the way.

As to concentrating on more important matters, I do hope you realize this was not about one man on trial for one shooting. It was about how we perceive society, which is directly related to how we operate within society. It is about the general outlook of 300,000,000 people who make up the United States of America, and who may be much more suspicious of law enforcement, to the point of skewing public opinion in a trial, than the rest of the globe. I'd say that is pretty important; sorry if you missed that.

TheRedneck

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

If I had to propose a reason for our distrust of law enforcement, I would hazard to say it is a symptom of the large number of cases we hear of abuse of power. How often do we hear of raids gone wrong, people tased for no good reason, or pets destroyed for no reason by law enforcement?

Waco... Ruby Ridge...

I know I have had my share of run-ins with either incompetent or actually malicious police. Thankfully these are still the minority, but their number does appear to be growing. That is very worrisome to me; as I admitted in the OP, I am more leery of the police. The thug is alone or at worse with a small but limited number of associates. The cop is backed up by a small army of officers ready to spring to his defense, state police, and if need be, the National Guard. All of them will take his word over mine if there is an altercation, and all of them are armed with both firearms and less-than-lethal-but-possibly-lethal alternatives. The chances of the thug attacking me are still higher than those of the officer attacking me, but the chances of my defending myself against the thug are still pretty good even considering my age and lack of youthful energy. I have no chance of defending myself against the policeman because of his backup... and lately it seems to me that my ability to defend myself against a thug (carried weapons) are becoming a cause for me to be attacked by the policeman.

I think that is the answer: we have lost faith in a law enforcement industry that has lost its ability to elicit the absolute integrity that is required to maintain its reputation. How this happened, and what can be done to correct it, is the next question.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
I'd be most wary of the disheveled youth.

Not Guilty is my vote.

You asked for specific answers without a lot of commentary, so there is my contribution to the discussion to kick things off. This should be interesting to see.

My sentiments exactly.

My wife and I frequently argue about this. She also distrusts the youth more, but thinks a guilty verdict was warranted.

I'd be more afraid of the cop cause a lot of them are corrupt in SA :p

and

I'd still say Not Guilty even though I don't trust cops


I've noticed its becoming more and more popular to persecute authority in America and paint people who, unfortunately, are on the receiving end of its force as victims. Mean, not just when it comes to cops but basically everything where there is authority involved.

Don't think Americans realize how what goes on America and the mentalities they adopt spill over into other countries. America is very influential and 3rd world/developing countries tend to mimic America and other 1st world countries.

I've always said South Africans don't know how to innovate just how to imitate and its true for most other developing countries.

Our media are basically badder version of American media.

Think like most things in life you have to keep it balanced, even the beliefs you hold. Extreme distrust of authority can be just as bad as never questioning its actions.

Redneck, what do you think about adding some more variables in there?

I think we would see a pattern start forming if we included male/female, age, and whether the individual is pro/anti gun rights.

In my experience, the majority of females have gone with "guilty," with a few exceptions. The majority of those in the teenage years go with "guilty," with a few exceptions. And those who are anti-gun trend towards "guilty" as well.

I am not so sure it points towards fear of authority (though it does play a role), but perhaps more into bias confirmation of pre-existing notions. All driven by the media to create more and more division between the vaguest demographics possible, likely to affect as large of percentages of the population as possible.

Too late but would be most wary of the thug, not guilty based on what I have read. UK

Even for ATS I'm surprised how many of you would be more wary of the cop. It's sad that you cannot trust your law enforcement.

The US reality TV program's we see over here seem to have white drunk drivers and black violent criminals so I wouldn't be surprised if someone would be more fearful of a black person. I watched three episodes of 'home invasion' and all criminals were black. Is there any reason your shows are like that?

Very interesting theory, OP. I think you may be on to something (though IMHO this case is a little more complex than that-- however, I can see it as a factor, and the dividing line you mentioned being a very real thing.)


On the other hand, I am probably one of the few people who is somewhat unsure of the case. I can see some fault on both sides. And given "reasonable doubt" I guess that would make "not guilty" a somewhat appropriate response.


Regarding your little test-- it's hard to say because that is somewhat situational. If I'm on a dark street in a bad neighborhood at night time? I might be more afraid of having to talk to "the thug."


Generally speaking, though, I'll give you this:


More afraid of The Police (generally speaking)

Maybe guilty of wrongful death, or something like reckless endangerment (aka he probably should have had the good sense to stay in his car and let the cops do their job.) But there is reasonable doubt regarding any more serious charges.



I feel the need to go one step further and qualify this, though. Having lived in a somewhat big city, and having even worked delivering food for a few years (where I would have to go to bad neighborhoods, housing projects, and often be around some "thug" looking people) 99 times out of 100 -- actually probably more like 9,999 times out of 10,000 based on my experience-- even if someone looks like a thug, they're not going to try to mess with you, unless you mess with them first, or you happen to be very unlucky.

On the other hand, the cops will often target you if you look "suspicious" for any reason. "Suspicious" can be highly variable from cop to cop.


The thug-- if the thug attacks me, I can legally defend myself.

The cop-- if the cop attacks me, I have no recourse until I can get to court, and unless I can afford a decent lawyer-- and that cop can very easily make my life very difficult for a long period of time, if he decides he doesn't like me, or something I've done, and wants to put me through the "justice" system.