The Curve of Advancement-Reversal of a Civilisation

Originally posted by swanne
reply to post by Pinke

 

I wouldn't be so certain. It seems that as people divorce that belief system, they feel less inclined to trust another one if that other one looks too much like it. Instead they'll try to find a more, er, "unbiased" source of moral reference. Meaning, they will most likely become agnostic, if not atheist.

I suppose this could apply to the rise of Christianity and the fall of Rome, in that rationalism seemed to fall along with the Republic / Empire. Deists were seen as just as 'evil' as Atheists or any of the ilk. Then, when people craved more freedom, they followed the founding fathers in a return to Greek and Roman philosophy.

Naturally they still have access to all the atheism-based philosophies, but again, these people might tend to avoid any philosophies that will remind them too much of their last religion.

I would differ here perhaps.

It appears to me that previous beliefs and philosophies are demonized and rejected. They are aligned with evil after a sharp revolution with often no rational investigation. Even if the elites of the era doubt the reality of it, they will follow this logic at least in action. For hundreds of years there was a kind PTSD that associated intelligent reasoning with evil.

So most will settle in something like naturalism, but the range might go all down to satanism, which is basically "nature" used as justification for moral free-for-all:

This is where things start to get very murky, but could make more sense (and warrant more study)

St. Thomas Aquinas reintroduced Aristotle and other philosophers to Catholic / Christian traditions, but this was actually condemned when it originally surfaced. Between 1277 (the condemnation) and two hundred years later his philosophies gained recognition. Now, the logic pulled from those ancient philosophers is quite entwined with the church's current position.

Though oddly, the appeal to nature has been used on both sides of the spectrum. It has been used to justify power over others, as well as make claim in 100% the other direction. The question you've encouraged me to reach to is ... does liberty and freedom lead to a moral free for all in this sense? Or is this something that can be prevented?

Though, I think there are international efforts to define, objectively, "morality". Once this is done, the ground will be alot less shaky!

I think it will get worse before it gets better!

But I think we could all agree that morality is something akin to ...

I agree on golden rule and such and the base of morality.

Yes, I did speculate that because of our memory (and Internet is a gigantic device of memory exchange/storage), these Curve will, on the long run, lose energy. That is, slow down or maybe even be altered

This is somewhat my hope for the human race.

I feel we go through periods of learning and then we lose the things we learnt, or forget why we made a rule in the first place. I'm hoping the internet one day provides us with a massive amount of data we can use to assist us in making wise decisions in the future ... but at the same time, it concerns me that tradition in politics, religion, and the rest will over shadow these efforts.

Many societies that fall people look back and say they were narcissistic or self important but at the time they probably felt they were traditional and giving respect to their history. I look at American patriotism sometimes as the birth of this inflexible nature in a young nation, and sometimes I wonder if we will stare into the past with a new political system at the smouldering ruins of the American Empire, patting ourselves on the back whilst our space warriors trying to bring Democracy Version 2.0 to the backwards citizens of Sirius B minor.

Edit: I like thinking about this theory ... might try to have a look on some of the research on the subject, since am really new to it ... but its got me thinking about a lot of my history!

reply to post by Pinke

I suppose this could apply to the rise of Christianity and the fall of Rome, in that rationalism seemed to fall along with the Republic / Empire. Deists were seen as just as 'evil' as Atheists or any of the ilk. Then, when people craved more freedom, they followed the founding fathers in a return to Greek and Roman philosophy.

Yes. The pattern is not linear, but more cyclic.

The question you've encouraged me to reach to is ... does liberty and freedom lead to a moral free for all in this sense? Or is this something that can be prevented?

That's hard to answer... I'd hope it could be prevented. But many people, even today, would love to see morality being thrown out the window... A survey showed that roughly 1/100 of North American population are devoid of morality standards, and/or psychopathic... And this tendency has been around since eons, with Marquis de Sade, Charles de Beaudelaire, Giosue Carducci, etc.

Just recently the movie the Purge got out. A show called Inner Space made a poll, and asked if Laws were abolished, and you would be free of doing anything, what would you do? And 25% of the people answered, "murder".

The only thing which prevent these people from forming a morality-free crime-prone movement, is, sadly, fear. Fear of being rounded up and thrown to jail (or executed). Liberty is by definition the freedom, the divorce with such fears. If one was to remove all philosophies and religions off a civilisation, so to allow perfect liberty and freedom, all fear will be removed (fears ranging from fear of execution, to fear of not being socially accepted), then, it is quite likely the civilisation will adhere to the easiest rule of conduct, something like hedonism. The pursuit of pleasure will very likely clash with morality standards, and these will most likely be discarded.

I'm hoping the internet one day provides us with a massive amount of data we can use to assist us in making wise decisions in the future ... but at the same time, it concerns me that tradition in politics, religion, and the rest will over shadow these efforts.

I agree. I would like to believe that these are tools... and that like any tools, they can be used for the best, not just for the worst.

I look at American patriotism sometimes as the birth of this inflexible nature in a young nation, and sometimes I wonder if we will stare into the past with a new political system at the smouldering ruins of the American Empire, patting ourselves on the back whilst our space warriors trying to bring Democracy Version 2.0 to the backwards citizens of Sirius B minor.

lol Believe it or not, I often wonder about the same things. One of the things I often wonder, too, is future appearance of crusades: Will our future be crusades of philosophies instead of religious crusades? And after philosophies crusades, will it be science theories crusades? Can this end at some point? Surely one cannot have mathematical crusades... Mankind is bound to universally agree on something. Which gives me hope. Chaos theory says that at one point in time, even perfect harmony can arise, although its probability is near zero. It might take another 2000 years, we can't know, but it's bound to happen someday; at least, mankind is not perfectly chaotic (since we have the capability to, as you point out, remember and learn).

Optimal stabilisation is just... a matter of time.

Originally posted by swanne
reply to post by Pinke

 

A survey showed that roughly 1/100 of North American population are devoid of morality standards, and/or psychopathic... And this tendency has been around since eons, with Marquis de Sade, Charles de Beaudelaire, Giosue Carducci, etc.

Oh, I think I wouldn't trust surveys that much. They almost demand stupid answers.

I'd like to think this thing in particular has been improving in small ways over time.

The only thing which prevent these people from forming a morality-free crime-prone movement, is, sadly, fear.

I wonder sometimes if this is the main issue ... Even in ancient times before the birth of Jesus it was believed that religion was needed to keep people in line. I sometimes wonder if that's true ... I always feel poverty, lack of education, and these types of things likely drive people much further towards desperation than lack of Jesus.

Though I agree that some type of rules will always be required due to game theory. Even a nice moral person would be driven to kill if killing wasn't prevented at times just out of concern for their safety.

Mankind is bound to universally agree on something.

Perhaps when we no longer have to worry about 'the end' we will stop fighting over silly things ... Much of government and the like really does come down to resources though we've never had 'infinite' so we won't get to try this theory till we launch into space.

Chaos theory says that at one point in time, even perfect harmony can arise, although its probability is near zero.

Perhaps reaching harmony has never been our problem.

Even if a nation reached perfect harmony, they're an invasion or a dark age away from the ultimate lows.

It's why the internet gives me some hope for the human race! Nice to see it does similarish for you too.

Nice chatting! Good thread, even if it is mostly just me finding it fascinating.

reply to post by Pinke

I always feel poverty, lack of education, and these types of things likely drive people much further towards desperation than lack of Jesus.

Though I agree that some type of rules will always be required due to game theory.

I think you're right on. Lack of religion is not the cause, it is just a factor. People were poor under organized religion. What would be ideally needed is a morality system which has actually application on the physical life of the people. For instance it's hard to convince people to share with each other, if at the same time you impose heavy taxes on them, rob the people from their ressources, and, thus, they have nothing to share in the first place.

Which happens to be in agreement with your next point...

Much of government and the like really does come down to resources though we've never had 'infinite' so we won't get to try this theory till we launch into space.

Even if a nation reached perfect harmony, they're an invasion or a dark age away from the ultimate lows.

It's why the internet gives me some hope for the human race! Nice to see it does similarish for you too.

That illustrates the importance of communication. The military knows it - in fact Internet used to be (during Cold War) a military project supposed to survive a nuclear war against Russia. But so many people take internet too much for granted... too few people realize it's one of the greastest achievement of mankind, the first of which is capable of Wolrd information communication. No matter which country you live in, you can instantly share with the rest of the World. And sharing is the first step to peace. Something the World sorely needs. I saw muslims on this site communicate their opinions with christians, and I saw christians share philosophical insights with scientists, and when I saw all that, I felt hope. It seems we can get along after all.

Nice chatting! Good thread, even if it is mostly just me finding it fascinating.

I too sincerely enjoyed your posts, as they are definitively thought-provoking. You made very good points... going to the core of the mechanism of civilisation. I have alot to ponder upon.

Yeah, it seems for some reasons, replies from other members to this thread suddenly stopped... I don't mind, though. It's less about popularity than it is about quality.

swan

a reply to: swanne

An easier way of putting would be as follows:
Imagine, if you will, a civilization that has mastered nature. Food is no problem, all pests eradicated, weather modification achieved and optimized. Disease is a worry of the past. Social triumphs have been achieved as well: the problem of increasing population has been solved, and with resources abound, violence is a thing of the past. "under the new conditions of perfect comfort and security, that restless energy [which is inherent to man] that with us is strength, would become weakness."-H.G. Wells The Time machine. Quite simply, this curve of advancement is inevitable, assuming we don't get wiped out before we find the solutions to all of mankind's problems and become simpletons.