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Broken Law: Ohio County Hides Actual Vote Count

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posted on Nov, 8 2004 @ 07:31 AM
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Citing concerns about potential terrorism [?!!?], Warren County officials locked down the county administration building on election night and blocked anyone from observing the vote count as the nation awaited Ohio's returns. County officials say they took the action Tuesday night for homeland security, although state elections officials said they didn't know of any other Ohio county that closed off its elections board. Media organizations protested, saying it violated the law and the public's rights. The Warren results, delayed for hours because of long lines that extended voting past the scheduled close of polls, were part of the last tallies that helped clinch Bush's re-selection.

The Cincinnati Enquirer

This my freinds, is voter fraud cover, plain & simple.




posted on Nov, 8 2004 @ 07:36 AM
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BT,

The article you posted does nothing to substantiate your claim of voter fraud in this case.



posted on Nov, 8 2004 @ 07:37 AM
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Originally posted by FredT The article you posted does nothing to substantiate your claim of voter fraud in this case.
I think it's substantiating his claim of breaking the law. Federal law requires that vote counting be open to the public.



posted on Nov, 8 2004 @ 07:45 AM
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Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
I think it's substantiating his claim of breaking the law. Federal law requires that vote counting be open to the public.


Not according to the county procecutor: (from the same article)


County Prosecutor Rachel Hutzel said commissioners "were within their rights" to restrict building access.


Laws aside, what I was refering to say this statement that BT Made:



This my freinds, is voter fraud cover, plain & simple.


Nowhere in that article do they bring up the possibility of voting fraud or covering up.

BTW, While searching for Federal Laws for this topic I cam across teh League of Women Voters guide / recomendation papaer for safeguarding elections. Its a good read

www.lwv.org...

[edit on 11/8/04 by FredT]

[edit on 11/8/04 by FredT]



posted on Nov, 8 2004 @ 08:01 AM
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Please don't mistake my short hand as forgoing due diligence of thought: no, nothing in the article called out fraud by name. However, this particular area, which already endured the irregularity of keeping the polls open well passed the closeing hour, was also a precinct that reversed & put over the top the Bush vote tally. That this was done, again, after normal hours of close, AND CLOSED OFF TO THE PUBLIC, is where my deduction comes into play.



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 01:19 AM
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www.votergate.tv
www.votescam.com


It's up to the people now, as it has been before...



Concerned

Cade



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 04:00 AM
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I'm in ohio and there was alot of fishy stuff going on. My state has embarassed me and it sort of feels like we were pawns in a political chess game. It leaves me wondering if my vote even counted.

doctorduh



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 05:23 AM
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It leaves me wondering if my vote even counted.

It did if you voted for Bush!


Sorry, couldn't resist.




posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 05:56 AM
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Hold on a minute

Its way to premature to make these claims anyway and just serves to stir people up.

Cleveland Plains Dealer



Election boards can't even begin to officially canvass the votes until Nov. 13, when the deadline for overseas votes passes.

Then election workers must audit every ballot in every precinct and recount all the votes to make sure things add up.

Then the counties certify their results, and Secretary of State Ken Blackwell certifies the state totals. Blackwell is expected to certify the results on Dec. 1.

Even if a candidate wanted a recount, it can't happen until after the certified totals are completed.

"People just need to be patient and calm down," White said.


You guys will get your recount by default as part of the certification process, according to the article ALL votes are to be counted.

Another quote from the article,


"Let's count them first before we do a recount," White said. "There's a lot of misinformation out there."



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 07:47 AM
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......as it is now. As posted here, Blackwell is the lynchpin to the fraud suspicion. He, being Bush Campaign Co-Chairman in Ohio, petititoned and got something tremendously odd: a waiver of Federal Laws. The Ohio e-vote kiosks were unaffected by Federal oversight and certification specifically due to an effort that was his & his alone.

Please explain that to me?


Bush support should not cloud anyone's judgement in seeing the problems here. At the light side - incompetance that disenfranchised. On the dark side - fascist vote manipulation.

[edit on 9-11-2004 by Bout Time]



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 11:13 AM
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Thanks for your e-mail. This story has generated a lot of response and we are continuing to
obtain information.


Keep reading,


Erica Solvig



This is going to be HUGE.... This has got to be THEE GREATEST SCAM IN THE 21ST CENTURY....

Us guys at the bottom need to pull the foundation (which is us) out from underneath them...

This would make a lot of room for restoration.



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 11:19 AM
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You know I already had beaten myself into submision and the acceptance of 4 more years of Mr Bush please do not give me false hopes


And where is kerry while all this is happening it seems like he has dispeared from the face of the earth.



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 11:39 AM
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Marg, The reason why Kerry and McAulffie have disappeared is because they don't want this investigated. They and the Democratic leadership already know that if we get into this, then they stand to loose states like Michigan, Pennslyvania, Wisconsin, Maryland, New Jersey, California, New Hampshire and New York. There have been lots of questions about those states, but since Bush won, the Republicans have decided not to press the issue. There were over 10,000 lawyers in Ohio looking for fraud, they did not find it or if they did, they kept it quite. Kerry also knows that if Ohio is recounted then he will lose votes he got in Cleveland, several districts had higher than 100% votes.



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 01:48 PM
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Originally posted by Bout Time
......as it is now. As posted here, Blackwell is the lynchpin to the fraud suspicion. He, being Bush Campaign Co-Chairman in Ohio, petititoned and got something tremendously odd: a waiver of Federal Laws. The Ohio e-vote kiosks were unaffected by Federal oversight and certification specifically due to an effort that was his & his alone.

Please explain that to me?


Bush support should not cloud anyone's judgement in seeing the problems here. At the light side - incompetance that disenfranchised. On the dark side - fascist vote manipulation.

[edit on 9-11-2004 by Bout Time]


Sorry for the full quote but in this case clarity was needed to follow the rest of this post.


Provisional Ballots



The Help America Vote Act requires "fail-safe voting" using provisional ballots. If your name is not on the voting list, you either can go to city or town hall to try to resolve the issue or you may cast a provisional ballot.

To cast a provisional ballot, you must complete an affirmation with your name, address, date of birth, and a statement that you are a registered voter in the jurisdiction and that you are eligible to vote. You also must show suitable identification. You then will receive a ballot and an envelope to put your ballot in after you make your choices.



From the FEC site pertaining to HAVA

Dates for specific requirements


January 1, 2004

Deadline for states to qualify for waiver of computerized statewide voter registration databases.

Last date for States applying for waiver of deadline for replacement of punchcard or lever voting machines using Section 102 payments.

States not participating in the grant programs shall certify to the EAC that the State has established a administrative complaint procedures (Section 402), or has submitted a compliance plan to the U.S. Attorney General.

Effective date for Section 302 provisional voting and voting information requirements.

States and jurisdictions required to comply with Section 303 requirements pertaining to computerized statewide voter registration lists (unless qualified for a waiver) and 1st time voters who register by mail.

EAC adopts voluntary guidance recommendations relating to Section 301 Voting Systems Standards requirements.

Effective date of new Section 706 UOCAVA amendments prohibiting states from refusing to accept registration and absentee ballot applications on grounds of early submission.


I do not see the evil intent so far but let me go to the text of the HAVA itself.

What is HAVA


To establish a program to provide funds to States to replace punch card
voting systems, to establish the Election Assistance Commission to
assist in the administration of Federal elections and to otherwise
provide assistance with the administration of certain Federal election
laws and programs, to establish minimum election administration
standards for States and units of local government with responsibility
for the administration of Federal elections


E-Voting Guidelines


(e) Special Rule for Initial Set of Guidelines.--Notwithstanding any
other provision of this part, the most recent set of voting system
standards adopted by the Federal Election Commission prior to the date
of the enactment of this Act shall be deemed to have been adopted by the
Commission as of the date of the enactment of this Act as the first set
of voluntary voting system guidelines adopted under this part.


Reading HAVA itself it would appear to be a voluntary program set up to help states replace punch card systems.

The sections dealing with compliance dates pertain mainly to receiving payment or reimbursement from the federal government for the purchase of voting machines.

Subsections strengthen military absentee, disabled absentee etc.

I'm still not seeing facist vote manipulation but hey who knows it could exist maybe if I visit one of the favorite authorities on e-voting that the democrats have cited widely we can get an answer,

Ah but is it the answer that was expected - I suppose not when considing partisan wishes of some posters,

I present to you comments by Aviel Rubin, a Johns Hopkins University professor of computer science oft cited by partisan democrats as a source on e-voting fraud issues.



Rubin, the political science professor at Hopkins who is one of the best-known critics of the machines - and who has been inundated with e-mails since the election, said theorists should let this one go.

"I don't think there is any evidence that the election was rigged," Rubin said. "What I think is that we're heading down a dangerous path with these machines where there's no way to disprove theories like that because there's no paper trail available. We're using a technology that's unverifiable.

"If you're using machines that can be rigged, then yes, it can happen," Rubin said. "But did it happen? I doubt it. The exit polls were still within the statistical norms of the results."

Union Leader

I think its "Nuff" said when the leading expert cited by partisan democrats says he doubts any fraud happened - all he says is it could happen but probably didn't when looking at the results.

Now its time for the partisan amongst us to debunk your own expert - eh


I am disturbed that the issue of election fraud is such a partisan sport and those currently seeking answers are concentrating solely on percieved "republican" fraud when in fact election fraud by anyone should be investigated and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law no matter who won the election.

As soon as the election happened it was as if a collective amnesia occured obliterating all the registration oddities and over 100% turnout questions in certain voting districts.

One thing HAVA did seem to do was add/increase penalties for perjury on a voters registration.


[edit on 9-11-2004 by Phoenix]



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 02:05 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
You know I already had beaten myself into submision and the acceptance of 4 more years of Mr Bush please do not give me false hopes


And where is kerry while all this is happening it seems like he has dispeared from the face of the earth.

Don't get happy too soon, marg.


Kerry was at a party last night, mixing it up with major Democratic fundraisers and exploring the possibility of another run in 2008. He's fooling himself, of course, if he thinks that HE won all those votes, when in actuality a large percentage of them were AGAINST Bush; it would not have mattered who the Democratic candidate was. And we all know that 2008 is Billary's time to run.

Stranger things have happened in American politics, though. Just look at Marion Barry in DC.

:shk:



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 02:14 PM
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I'm trying to get people to investigate if the US elections are being rigged, staged.

The reason for the short messages was actually to let people themselves seek out the information awailable on the linked websites so they could form their own oppinion.

Is the evidence so harsh that a simple housewife can expose the fraud? Take a look yourself.

Perhaps the time has come to put aside differences, political viewpoints, rules of spamming? What does it all matter if there are no elections? How can we even differ on subjects if we can't go and wote on the issues?

If we all disagree on different subjects, surely we can all agree that we need elections to vote our way forward on these matters in a democratic fasion?

I've been warned not to "spam". I hope noone takes offence of this but It's worth the risk if our democracy is in danger:
www.votescam.com
www.votergate.tv

Sincerly concerned

Cade



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 02:18 PM
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as mentioned by Phoenix
I think its "Nuff" said when the leading expert cited by partisan democrats says he doubts any fraud happened - all he says is it could happen but probably didn't when looking at the results.


Good point, Phoenix.
According to the liberal left news paper, The L.A. Times:


According to the preliminary tally, which included all domestic absentee ballots, Sen. John F. Kerry lost Ohio by 136,483 votes, Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell said.


They then went on to state:


Attorneys for the Kerry campaign said Monday that they did not believe the outcome of the Ohio vote which gave President Bush the electoral votes needed to win could possibly change; they have discouraged speculation that voting irregularities caused Kerry's loss.

Ohio Is Set to Reckon With Outstanding Ballots

And this is said, despite all of MSNBC's Olbermannisitic hysterics regarding all the supposed voter fraud that again supposedly and allegedly took place in Ohio...

Furthermore, they then comment:


Voting machine failures did occur, and long lines in heavily Democratic precincts discouraged some potential voters. Still, a broad range of experts said that the final vote counts in Ohio and other states could not possibly change the outcome.



But hey, the liberal left still makes bold allegations, though the experts disagree. Notice this comment:


Nonetheless, the Ohio count is attracting scrutiny by groups who say the election was tainted and that voting equipment in Ohio, Florida, South Carolina and elsewhere was defective. On Friday, three congressional Democrats asked for a federal investigation.


The article then goes on to recognize the efforts of the internet groups, bloggers, and sites efforts to continue in the 'mythology' of voter fraud, vote miscounts, blackbox's being rigged, etc.:


Since the election, Internet sites and political blogs have buzzed with speculation that the vote was manipulated. "Evidence mounts that the vote may have been hacked," reads the title of one widely circulated Web offering.


and here:


There are a lot of conspiracy theory folks out there thinking that with a machine problem here and a long-line problem there and the provisional ballots the result is in doubt," said Edward J. Foley, a professor at Ohio State University's Moritz College of Law. "I have seen nothing to indicate that the result is in doubt.


Alas, the bad news is, again according to The L.A. Times:


If all provisional votes are deemed valid, Kerry would need 88% of them to overcome Bush's margin of victory in Ohio, assuming the remaining overseas absentee ballots were split evenly.


And even worse:


If 10% of the provisional ballots were rejected, Kerry would need to get 97.6% of those remaining to overcome Bush's lead.



I'm seriously beginning to believe and think that 'conspiracies' are nothing but 'hope' devices and mechanisms....




seekerof

[edit on 9-11-2004 by Seekerof]



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 02:40 PM
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....cogent argument, you'd be a MasterDebater!!

But, alas, it's not.

Follow me here:

- Provisional ballots or HAVA , though an interesting side note, were not part & parcel of my charge, nor anything but a distraction in your rebuttal.

- Nuff' said ( a side note: pleeeeease don't quote Stan "the Man" Lee; he's one of my boyhood idols.......y'all just ain't that Excelsior son!
)
, is highly applicable here , but not in the way you tried to massage it. Read the quote again: "What I think is that we're heading down a dangerous path with these machines where there's no way to disprove theories like that because there's no paper trail available. We're using a technology that's unverifiable."
That's what we've had in every area where there has been no papertrail, as Rubin warns against. The thread topic is speaking specifically to his concern - unverifiable voting kiosks.
Blackwell-cum-Katherine Harris pushed through the use of those unverifiable, no papertrail kiosks before he had to ( Jan.2006), before they were fully tested, and most importantly, without Federal authentication. So, I really don't know where you go from here Mr.Proud NeoConservative ( oops! Ya wised up and changed that, good for you!
), but you've made no case for the altruism you swear Rove Republicans abide by.


Seek: LA Times won the most Pulitzer awards out of any national paper; several specifically for their investigative reporting; you Bu#es need to stop demonizing logic....that's how the Damn Dark Ages happened for Christs Sake!!!
This was screamed about prior to the election; why the AMNESIA!?!?! Diebold, ES&S.....there are alot of threads about a year old on these outfits. It's misleading to state that this is a cause & effect issue - the klaxon was sounded long ago.
I know you folks perfected the bait & switch with the lead up to the illegal Iraqi invasion ( "Saddam has aluminum tubes", "saddam has Bio Weapons", "Saddam has yellow cake","Saddam is hung like a horse & he's horny!"), but don't try it with the "provisional ballots" charade; two of your ilk have tried it already. The issue: NO TRAIL, VOTES COUNTED FOR & NOT MEANT FOR, NO VIEWING OF ACTUAL COUNT!!!

NOW STOP THAT NONSENSE!!!



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 03:47 PM
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Originally posted by Bout Time


......as it is now. As posted here, Blackwell is the lynchpin to the fraud suspicion. He, being Bush Campaign Co-Chairman in Ohio, petititoned and got something tremendously odd: a waiver of Federal Laws. The Ohio e-vote kiosks were unaffected by Federal oversight and certification specifically due to an effort that was his & his alone.


I've bolded the pertinent points made in the quoted post of yours where you went on to ask "can you answer that" or some such statement like that.

Well it was not "odd" to ask for the waiver if one simply takes the time to read the HAVA law - I even provided a convenient link.

As to your point of "Federal oversight and certification" I also answered that with the HAVA link.

There are no mysteries about Blackwells decisions, Like I said "nuff" already.

You and I do agree about verification as I suspect everyone else voting does.
We may disagree on methodology though - I believe the paper trail as it were is just as susceptable to forgery if it is not tightly controlled. Handing a paper receipt to a voter opens up other avenues of manipulation.

Because we use secret ballot in the US I'd like to see a discreet number on the e-voting machine screen that matches on a printed and viewable but not touchable sheet feed showing my voter choices. The printed sheet feed would have to drop into a lockbox to be partially audited in an undisputed election to check machince accuracy or fully audited in case of recount.

As I read HAVA no requirement for receipts is mandatory but committees are supposed to recommend future (voluntary) recommendations for federal elections.

Personally I dislike e-voting because there is no way to verify the vote as right, wrong.

No proof can be made either way - its guess work and probabilities, this time as Aviel Rubin said "the statistical analysis" says we're ok - next time who knows.



[edit on 9-11-2004 by Phoenix]



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 03:59 PM
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Originally posted by Phoenix
Hold on a minute

Its way to premature to make these claims anyway and just serves to stir people up.





This argument has silenced too many for too long. So what if the truth wakes people up? So what if they get upset? A little anarchy and panic in the streets will NOT make things any worse than the current corporate takeover is doing.

...It's time for people to wake up, get upset, and DO something to fix the problems. No one else will take responsibility.



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