Hypothetical Invasion of North America

Originally posted by opethPA
You still haven't addressed any of the geographic issues that make a successful ground based invasion of the Mainland US a near impossibility .

The only way would be to destroy our electrical grid in some unknown way for them to have a chance of a buildup and evasion, but the country they would build up in would need to be on their side too and Canada and Mexico are not in anyway. Any other country and the distance is still too great.

reply to post by Xtrozero


Has anyone noticed the gov't the US has? They aren't even going to put up a fight during an invasion.

They're all communist themselves - they'll be putting us citizens in fema camps and sipping champagne with their comrades, laughing at all of us.

Our enemy is already here.

How many russian troops are in our country now? Didn't they just have war games with our elite military last summer in Colorado? Sharing equipment?

reply to post by BO XIAN


Like I said, Bo -- Fair enough. I don't doubt your sincerity, or your contribution. I just can't bring myself to believe in your sources.

I wish you nothing but the best.

reply to post by DivineEvolution


To put it simply, the way the US is right now, the only thing that could bring about any significant or noticeable change is sudden and probably violent revolution, but that would require the narcissistic, self absorbed populace to band together, give up what little they have left, and really push for it. In short, this will probably never happen. To quote Thomas Jefferson, a quote we have sadly forgotten in this trying day and age, "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

reply to post by opethPA


True.

And those geographic issues would be challenging to overcome.

I just believe that Russia and China

AS SET-UP, AIDED, PROVIDED FOR, ARRANGED FOR, AND ORDERED

by the PTB

will be able to overcome such challenges.

Dimitru Duduman's visions and dreams

see:

www.handofhelp.com...

look under prophecies; Dimitru Duduman--grandfather of the site owner.

seemed to indicate that the war would go on--on the ground--for up to 3 years and that the Russian and Chinese forces would never meet up in the middle of the USA. Further, that after a while, the Christians in the invading Chinese army would turn and fight on the side of the USA patriots.

Evidently the mountain states and Midwest will largely be a kind of no man's land in large portions of it, if not the whole of it.

Of course, if the predicted New Madrid etc really does result in a new arm of the Gulf of Mexico reaching the Great Lakes, that will complicate a lot of things.

Originally posted by Happy1

How many russian troops are in our country now? Didn't they just have war games with our elite military last summer in Colorado? Sharing equipment?

I wouldn't really have any concern about that...

One thing no one has talked about and that is the level of experience that American military has right now. We have been fighting real wars the last 10 plus years and so all our equipment has been field tested and redesigned under real world testing. We train using real world technics, all one has to do is look at our top equipment and tactics in 2000 and compare it today. We have the ONLY real world experienced fighting force in the world with a decade of improvements. This is huge, all other countries just train but they have not been tested in real world situations. Army's have a tendency to erode into inefficiently and equipment based on control environments is not truly the best or close to it.

I for one would not want to be the country today to go head to head with America, it would not be very pretty for the other guy.

reply to post by Xtrozero


I lived in China for years.

I had connections that reached into the aging long time senior leaders and into the Central Committee.

China believes that with their population and "Chinese superiority" they can be the culture left on top of the heap of ashes.

They have spoken of losing 800 million citizens and

THAT THAT WOULD BE ACCEPTABLE.

I think Americans have a hard time understanding that kind of mentality.

The Chinese see this as THE CHINESE CENTURY.

Some as THE CHINESE MILLENIUM.

And that they are overdue to rule the world.

Originally posted by BO XIAN
reply to post by Xtrozero

 

I lived in China for years.

I had connections that reached into the aging long time senior leaders and into the Central Committee.

China believes that with their population and "Chinese superiority" they can be the culture left on top of the heap of ashes.

They have spoken of losing 800 million citizens and

THAT THAT WOULD BE ACCEPTABLE.

I think Americans have a hard time understanding that kind of mentality.

The Chinese see this as THE CHINESE CENTURY.

Some as THE CHINESE MILLENIUM.

And that they are overdue to rule the world.

Could be...

China doesn't have a lot of friends... they been fighting border wars with Russia for a very long time, neither side have any love for each other. India is a 1.3 billion person country that dislikes China too. I can tell you it would not be a Chinese American war and America would not be invaded before about 30 other countries fell first.

The start will be China taking over Taiwan followed by a war with Japan. After that it is anyone's guess as to who decides to try an grab a piece of the pie. I can just picture a WWI scenario where china sends 100s of million of troops into a field of slaughter. Maybe this is their way for population control. Its not like they have not killed 100 million or more before of their population.

Another serious problem that China faces in the next 20 plus years is a greatly reduced work force and a growing retirement force. They have had the one child policy in affect for a very long time now, and this creates a situation where they do not have enough younger people being born to work as the population grows older. Give it another 20 years and China will be a country of old folk.

I just believe that Russia and China

AS SET-UP, AIDED, PROVIDED FOR, ARRANGED FOR, AND ORDERED

by the PTB

will be able to overcome such challenges.

I'd have to vehemently disagree.

Destroying us financially? Possibly. However, even this isn't everything. Did it stop Germany from rising up and rolling over Europe? No. Because they still had a powerful military.

For starters, there is the simple challenge of getting that many troops and armor on the ground here. Right there, even a union of Russia and China simply doesn't have the military assets to do this.

Then, there is the issue of air power and range, as well as resupply. Again, a huge challenge to a Chi-Russo force.

After this, it is a question of just how "settled" the vast area of America is. With countless armed forces bases in so many towns and cities, it is like walking into a minefield. Combine this with the armed civilian population, and it is suicide.

Finally, there is the question of nukes. China doesn't even have enough nukes to make it through our missile defense systems, unless they concentrated on a select group of targets with huge salvos at each. Even then, it would have to be augmented by Russian missiles to overwhelm the defenses. Meanwhile, we'd launch a full retaliatory strike, while pulling older missiles from storage for round 2, 3, and 4, etc. of firing. Sure, they may slag a few US cities, but both Russia and China's infrastructure is concentrated into far fewer main cities. Simply put, there won't be ANYTHING left of civilization in Russia or China, for them to come home to. Meanwhile, every military asset abroad is on it's way home to the US to reinforce the natural forces in place.

Any way you slice it, it is an absolute logistical nightmare of epic proportions for an invading force.



The big event that is going to temper China's economic dominance is the emergence of the Chinese middle class. It is an inevitable byproduct of the way they do business. The cheap labor advantage won't last forever once this class emerges in full force, and it will drive up labor costs, increase calls for more environmental responsibility, and allow other nations to then be more competitive in the labor pool.

China believes that with their population and "Chinese superiority" they can be the culture left on top of the heap of ashes.

It wouldn't be the first time an Asian power underestimated us, or our ability to mobilize in defense of the homeland. Does this ring a bell?

"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."

Attributed to Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto after bombing Pearl Harbor.

reply to post by Gazrok


Your assertions are exceedingly reasonable from several vantage points.

I just don't think they will turn out to have been as solidly true as you seem to expect--in literal factual ways when the dust settles.

I wish I could believe your scenarios, criteria, perspective would turn out to be lastingly true.

Given all I've read, pondered and experienced . . . I fully expect both China and Russia to have lots of troops on the ground here at some dreadful future point. They may not be reasonable in their calculations . . . they may not even have a great probability of success, objectively. I don't think that would stop them.

I just heard another bit of input that might relate to all this re China.

Some Chinese working in the mall were talking to a missionary friend of mine. He noted that he wanted to go to China.

The Chinese immediately said "NO YOU DON'T. It's too dangerous. Now, people passing Americans on the street might just stab you [to death if possible]."

My interpretation is that the government MIGHT be winding up anti-American sentiment preliminarily as a prep toward war with the USA and invading the USA. I know some will think that a far fetched conjecture. I wish it were.

1/3rd of America is dropping dead in the next 12 months.

+70 million Baby Boomers
+15 million older than Baby Boomers
+9 million Generation X's on SSDI because they're dyin early from getting born with bad DNA-poisoned.


All China has to do is sit back and watch. The Nazi Scientists and Jewish folk have been killing America alllll by themselves.

No invasion needed.

The big money folk are killing off America just fine...alll by themselves. America will belong to Mexico very soon.

reply to post by Pervius


I don't understand your math well.

Could you lay it out in a bit more detail and step by step, please?

How many of us Baby Boomers are there at what ages?
What are the mortality rates at each age?
etc.

When I read posts about the logistics of moving the equipment to supply a Chinese and/or Russian force, it's almost as if everyone assumes this would be done over a very short time frame. What if the equipment and infrastructer for an invasion force has been moved into place over the course of say... ten years? I don't know the exact or estimated numbers, but how many cargo containers enter the United States each year? There's quite a bit. More so, I believe Panama has leased the Panama Canal to China until sometime around 2018. Also, to further my point, COSCO is one of the largest shipping companies in the world. So you know that they have to be moving some serious containers. So, over the course of that ten years, you send some munitions, a vehicle, or possible armored vehicles in sporadic containers, it would likely go unnoticed. Depending on how good security and cargo inspections are. I'm not quite sure what kind of procedures are in place.

So in all actuality all China and/or Russia would have to do is to slip in forces with visas over time, take a few major ports, and it would open the door on all sides of the country. Of course, this is all purely speculative. However I believe it has some merrit.

I also seem to think that our government is trying to prepare for such a possibility. These are purely my thoughts and anyone feel free to poke holes in anything you're able to. If the USA did manage to come under direct attack, it would cause a major disruption in oil. Does anyone think that the prices of gasoline and oil have gone up to drive down demand to save stockpiles? Also, wouldn't it explain the governments lack of desire to open up ANWAR and other domestic drilling sites? So that the US could become completely oil independent incase of attack?

Further, we all know how much of a desire most middle east countries have to eliminate Israel. The only thing really stopping them is direct intervention from the United States. Russia and China both support Israel's enemies. They're all tired of the US's meddling in foreign affairs anyhow. With the US tied up with an invasion force, Israel would be wide open. Granted their military is astounding, but how long could they hold out alone? That could potentially be part of the agenda.

I know I've casted quite a wide net, but I believe that some of the pieces fit together. Let me know what you think.

I think, for the most part, I agree with the sentiment that an out and out invasion of North America, (I am including Canada in that, as a canadian, I tell you there would be a lot of us that don't just roll over), would be doomed to failure. The tactical and strategic situations would be untenable.

But then my next follow up would be, when is an invasion not an invasion? If the powers that be could have a situation in which the foreign forces would not be viewed as invaders, then they could get the boots on the ground without worrying about them being intercepted en route.

A natural disaster of some magnitude hitting the states, followed by a disabled infrastructure, would ensure that the states would be more open to outside help.

What form this would take is a discussion for someone more clever than I, but considering the forum we're on, I think we can get some good ideas. Such as massive earth quake, a plague or pandemic situation starting in the states, a nuclear based EMP strike from a more vocal enemy, or any other number of items. Heck, if I were to guess, I'd say it would probably be more than one event. It would have to be significant to ensure the states was unable to deal with it on their own.

So if such an even does happen, what then? Well obviously the countries in question offer their help. Depending on the leadership in the white house, they could even tell the populace to comply with the relief forces while the government tries to restore order. Or if the government is disabled in some way, then they'd just try to win the hearts and minds of the people by offering immediate relief and taking over leadership positions. All with the air of helping America of course. Military hardware to some degree would even be seen as needed to help keep the peace in such an environment. And make no mistake, there will be lawlessness, any time a large disaster strike a major city, while many people evacuate and play it safe, there's always a number that remains to loot and pillage and burn.

Once their relief forces are on the ground, it would be a fairly easy transition to occupation forces. Of course, if they are too obvious about it, then they no longer have popular support, and certain populations will begin to resit. I suspect some populations would have already started resiting before this point, but if the relief troops are here at the request of the government, then they'd be working with US forces as well, or whatever remained of them, giving them a greater air of legitimacy.

Never let a good crisis go to waste. If some really really bad happens to the states, I'd be willing to bet that the U.N. is all too eager to offer help. The problem is, once here, how to make them go home again. And that's the crux of the matter. As with my example above, I don't think getting the forces here would be as hard is it's been made out to be, given the right circumstances.

This is exactly what makes it a fantasy. Right now Russia and China would not be able to invade Panama unless the US let them borrow some strategic lift assets and lots of logistics support. Russian and Chinese forces are designed to operate in country or in their border areas. They do not have the ability to project power. The UK, France, Italy, and India have better power projection and none of them beyond small scale ops.

This earlier post is actually right on the money. It's not about how many troops, it's about the ability to PROJECT that power, and right now, they don't have it.

And the cargo container thing? Troops need to be housed, fed, equipped, practice...etc. All that is NOT happening in cargo containers.

Originally posted by Gazrok

And the cargo container thing? Troops need to be housed, fed, equipped, practice...etc. All that is NOT happening in cargo containers.

I wasn't referring to storing troops in cargo containers. Over time, however, you can accumulate a large amount of equipment and supplies in those containers. It's also kind of naive to think that there isn't foreign troops living here already. I mean, the military run scenarios where they operate and blend in with the local populace.

Projecting power, all at once, is far fetched and nearly impossible for China and Russia. But not if assets are placed over time.