Is heaven really perfect?

It's a very difficult question to answer and the Bible doesn't really give an answer to that. But Revelation 21:4 says...

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

So we know by that verse there will be no sorrow. You have to remember that we will no longer be human so our way of thinking right now won't be our way of thinking in heaven. We don't know exactly how things will work in heaven.

Jesus says in John 3:12....

"I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?"

To quote Zoog Von Rock:
"God can't save you 'cuz she's shopping."

There is no heaven, as perfection is subjective; success is relative. You cannot escape the grief that comes with a lifetime of self-denial. Not with all the faith in the world.

I have though about these concepts for my whole life, even as a young child. I am a Christian, and to take the concept further what about people who never have heard of God nor know any of His truth? Your stuck with an almost cold unloving logic that is black and white. I dont have scripture to back up what I am about to say, but I say it as one who knows the heart of God, or at least if I were to speak on the heart of God; I do not believe someone who loves His children so much to die for them, would send them to eternal damnation, at least not without that said someone specifically denying Christ. What I mean by this is I feel the greatest honor to God is to believe and follow him in this life, without seeing Him. But I believe in the next life, those who either denied God, or never knew of Him, are able to see him, where there is absolutely no doubt, no argument, there He is. And your given a choice at that point to live with Him forever or deny Him. Yes I believe some will choose no, a very few will choose no, but the ones that choose no, we will know they hated God.

Furthering my opinion, I believe that most people who do not know God, or the atheist types, will be all over heaven, and in my opinion some of the greatest who love God. In many ways I admire those who choose not to follow what they do not see, and I think God admires it too. So yeah all of this is my opinion, all of this may be spot or, or completely wrong, or may be some sort of mixture. But I do know that what I have learned of the Lord in my life, that I do not feel this life is our one and only chance to accept God, but only the greatest one and only chance to bring the highest honor to Him.

I know a few believers who believe our earthly lives prepare us for our "careers" in Heaven, and those who believe on earth and follow God will be like the noblest citizens, and those who may choose God after death, maybe they are like the servants? I am not sure, but what the OP states, and the thoughts I have felt my whole life, they do not seem as black and white, God is not that cruel. To finish, I believe many people when they see God will be overwhelmed by His love, and I know that sounds cliche', but I believe many will not have had a clue how much He actually loved us, I mean were His children, He died for us while we were at the peak of sinning, where in history have you seen such an act of love to such an unworthy lot? So there you go, the only ones who go to hell, are the ones that decide both in this life, and at the time of judgement, that they want to go there.

i have been a christian in a part of my life i woulndt have survived of i werent

lost my mom and mom in law to cancer got divorced and a bunch of other crap ....

im not a christian anymore, maybe god helped me because i needed it ... i dont know

but in this time i heard heaven was without "earthly" emotions, you know someone in heaven differently, on earth they would be a brother a sister mom or dad, but you feel different towards them in heaven, more like really close friends rather then family ties

you dont think like you do now, out of sight out of mind so you dont see your old friend from high school you dont think about him

if that makes any sense at all

have a nice day

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Ah but in the Christian bible unless they are really evil they may enter heaven on the merit of the really good whom are there family or dear friend's, what people miss is that Christian heaven is not a garden paradise it is work but you never tire or thirst and live forever but may sleep if you wish until god calls you,.
We were made to work and in the resurrection it is not the body of dust that is sitting in a coffin that rises but the soul and a angelic body is given - heaven is the love of God and doing good to others, this is the Christian heaven and work and it is not so much a place as oneness with god or a state of being though there is a place as well but the kingdom of god is within you.

In Islam it is a garden with 40 virgins and sounds both boring and nightmarish to me.

In Buddhism it is ascension to the state of Nirvana and oneness with the ultimate be that God or otherwise.

There are a great many variant's but many like Christianity and Buddhism have parallels.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Hi.

Why do you think your loved ones won't be there? Change your thinking. My opinion (and I have had this confirmed to me by God Himself) is there is no hell, only heaven and afterlife EVERY SINGLE MAN WOMAN GIRL BOY who has EVER lived will be there regardless of their conduct (how they behaved) here on earth. So there will be no sadness only blessed reunion and forgiveness therefore perfect heaven?

Why do you believe in hell (could this not be a lie from the devil to suck up your otherwise happy life in fear and doubt?) If God is God surely He has a way to save every single person and not just a select few? (This question is rhetorical.) Don't worry you WILL see all your relatives again from Adam and Eve!

I curse you Satan for causing people to fear and doubt needlessly. Truth is God loves us all and we are messing up this life in paradise by purchasing the Devils lies! Anything the Devil says is simply NOT true!

Enjoy your life and heaven waits!

reply to post by HD3DSURROUNDSOUND


Beautiful and deep.
There however must be a reckoning whatever for it take's,. But god is merciful and he does love each as the singular person they are but he is also saddened by the worst we can do to one another and this world is maybe more hell than heaven for the majority but I hope you are right, Anyway we both believe in a good god.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

About 20 years ago I asked a nun this same question. I can paraphrase her response - When in Heaven you will be so conformed to the Will of God ... so in tune with it ... so understanding of it ... that you will be happy that His plan is working out and so you will not be unhappy about missing your children or spouse or whoever. You will have 'moved on' and not have the attachments to individuals but instead will be attached to the Will of God. --- something like that.

Obviously we don't know if that's true or not. But that was her answer.

reply to post by DestroyDestroyDestroy


Sorry to pick on you. I love your destroy, destroy, destroy attitude!

I say that in order to grow as a spirit some things have to be worked out of us and I can see at the moment you are in the couldn't care less destruction is cool God is stupid phase of your existence. In order for there to be perfection in heaven there has to be all kinds of points of views and people who have attained enlightenment coming from different paths.

To the enlightened we grieve and celebrate your current position and pray sooner rather than later you realise that only selfless love is divine.

reply to post by HD3DSURROUNDSOUND


I don't believe in the Christian version of hell. If hell is anywhere, it's here on Earth, and it's not as bad as the bible tries to make it out to be.

Luckily, heaven is right above us and has enough planets like Earth in it that maybe I'll land on a good one in my next life. That's what I'm hoping at least. It'd be a real bummer if I ended up on another Earth. I'll take nature over concrete jungles any day of the week.

Originally posted by LABTECH767
reply to post by HD3DSURROUNDSOUND

 

Beautiful and deep.
There however must be a reckoning whatever for it take's,. But god is merciful and he does love each as the singular person they are but he is also saddened by the worst we can do to one another and this world is maybe more hell than heaven for the majority but I hope you are right, Anyway we both believe in a good god.

edit on 27-5-2013 by LABTECH767 because: (no reason given)

Thanks.

We both do serve a good God and there will be a reckoning but it's not what you think. May I ask a question? If humanity has committed so many crimes and God wanted to punish the devil ONLY for the crimes of all humanity as long as humanity agreed to forgive one another for all their crimes committed against one another and live in forgiveness and peace, would that be acceptable? SO ONLY the Devil has to pay and humanity can be saved. Judgement day is for the Devil ONLY not for mankind. Mankind will be absolved for all it's crimes and inherit eternal life. Why does even 1 person have to pay for crimes the Devil is responsible for?

The level of perfection in heaven is not what you think. Heaven will be EXACTLY the same as earth but without consequences, I mean what can you or anybody do to harm me if I am a spirit likewise how will I harm anyone? The concept of physical pain and harm no longer exist in heaven so try not to project them there with your mind but remember when you think of heaven to remember that you will be a free spirit = no pain !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please can someone tell me how to cause any form of pain as we know it to a free spirit? There IS NO WAY! Therefore no more pain BUT we will still be emotional and expressive. Imagine being alive on earth, able to do everything you can do now, but without a physical body to cause you pain.

You have just had a glimpse of the afterlife. Eternal life = NO PAIN!

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by HD3DSURROUNDSOUND

 

I don't believe in the Christian version of hell. If hell is anywhere, it's here on Earth, and it's not as bad as the bible tries to make it out to be.

Luckily, heaven is right above us and has enough planets like Earth in it that maybe I'll land on a good one in my next life. That's what I'm hoping at least. It'd be a real bummer if I ended up on another Earth. I'll take nature over concrete jungles any day of the week.

edit on 27-5-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

LOL. Well my personal opinion is that as God gave us the earth to fill and subdue for now BUT in the NEW AGE in our new bodies (spirit) He will give us the entire universe to fill and subdue.

Sometimes I think of us meagre humans as the original seeds of life for the entire universe and that this is just the beginning. I'm way sure that out there you will find millions of planets with natural life and you might even decide to settle on one one day. The afterlife is billions and billions and billions of years x infinity x infinity probably just about the right amount of time needed for humanity to explore the entire universe. I hear the universe is constantly expanding... So eternity seems about right.

I for one can't wait to start exploring infinite space!

reply to post by HD3DSURROUNDSOUND


No the devil was an angel according to the scriptures and another way of looking at it was he was a member of the pantheon of angel's but he was power hungry and hated god so were did he originally come from before entering heaven?, maybe he is not the first or last devil, I personally do not believe all will enter heaven but to repeat what jesus said "There are many mansion's in my fathers house".

Although now no longer part of western Christianity it was for over a thousand years there was a belief in a state of being called purgatory were the soul would await judgement, In the Buddhist system the same state exists and it is called bardo the waiting room of the soul were the Karmic balance of the soul is measured before the next stage of being is entered.

There may be a paradise but that is not an eternal dwelling as it is in our nature to get out and explore and some of us may one day fall as the devil has in a distant future when we too forget were we came from and how good god is,.

Though I personally hate the devil, I must answer for my sin's except were as a Christian Christ has absolved be and I must work to a better new world to pay back my eternal debt to him and the father for redeeming me, that may come now or when we enter the next stage of being but that is not scripture just me thinking.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if I found out that Heaven and Hell were just made up terms by civilizations of very old times in order to keep the general population reasonably structured...

We as humans should either accept that we know what we know or waste time trying to work out something that we can never prove...

There is a high probability that other lifeforms are out there in the universe but you know what I actually believe? No matter how advanced they are or what they know, they to will probably be stuck in the same situation as us asking "what happens after they die"

Thanks OP for getting the mind working

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Say you're a Christian and you raise a son or daughter who turns out to be an atheist or agnostic later in life. (This is not unheard of by any means.)

Once you get to heaven and your son or daughter never show up because of their beliefs, wouldn't you be sad or even disappointed knowing that you would never see them again and that they are suffering forever in hell?

If heaven is perfect, then how do you account for people being sad or distraught about some of their loved ones suffering in a pit full of fire for eternity? How would god alleviate this problem in heaven? Would he just erase your memories of these people or would he let you keep them?

If he lets you keep those memories, then how would you deal with that situation? Would you still be overjoyed at the thought of them suffering, or would you be sad?

If he just erases your memories of them, then another question comes up. What would have been the purpose of god putting that person in your life only to erase them afterwards? Isn't there a purpose for everything in god's plan?

This is just a thought I had. I'd really like to hear your opinions on it. Thanks for reading.

edit on 25-5-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

You will forever argue in circles with thoughts like that. Your questioning of something that is based on pure belief structured by subjective interpretations and metaphoricall scriptures that could of been manipulated to supress true freedom of thought from dogmatic indoctrination. Opinions about the soul and afterlife aside, if there is a place like hell then clearly it can be defined by the physical pain and suffering on this planet earth.

Think outside the box, you may find a new perspective on such matters

Good things

reply to post by HD3DSURROUNDSOUND


Well, if you believe in reincarnation then you've already been exploring infinite space for billions and billions of years.

That's my opinion at least.

Yeah that pedo Uncle that asked for forgiveness gets into heaven but a loved one that did nothing wrong but only crime was to not except Jesus goes to hell. Man made concept both of them heaven and hell.

reply to post by FreeThinkerbychoice


Hey! I'm a free thinker by choice too, so that's at least one thing we have in common. I actually am an outside the box thinker. Read any of my other posts and you'd find that out.

Man I haven't posted on ATS in quite a while, but you ask an interesting question that I think many have pondered at one time or another. But my response first and foremost would be, how do you handle it now? Regardless of what you believe, they are gone. And even if you are a born-again believer, that does not mean, just as you said in your post, that those around you will be. So if you lost them, even while you still live here on this planet, you are faced with coping with the reality that you will never see them again. If you have no belief in the afterlife, the outcome is still the same, is it not? So yes, it hurts, but that doesn't mean that one cannot cope with the loss of a loved one. In reality, we all have dealt with it, and we all will, and life goes on. I honestly believe that there is a hell and there will be a lot of people there, many whom I know and love, but the reason that I don't stay up at night crying is because when I say I believe in God, I don't just believe He exists, I truly believe He is the God He says He is, the just judge who has given all men a chance at knowing Him and accepting what He has. I truly believe that He has revealed Himself in many ways to everyone, and He will deal with them accordingly. I also believe that He has given me a mouth to tell these who do not know Him about who He is and what He has done for them, and I have a part to play in my well-being and theirs as well.
The word Christian means "like Christ", or "of Christ", meaning we are to be like Him, and as Paul says in Philippians 3:10-11 "through the fellowship of His sufferings". He Himself faces loss, and we grow to be like Him when we are not insulated from heartache and trouble, but when we live through it and mature. Will it hurt? Yes, it will, but the word perfect as it is used in the Bible means complete, not flawless.
And also, I would argue that one who becomes a Christian primarily so that they can see their loved ones again (1) picked the wrong religion, or (2) miss the point of the faith.

The contradiction of heaven and hell has plagued me for many years. The idea of heaven or hell seems as empty a promise as any amount of virgins waiting in the after life. It also seems like an utterly selfish/self-centered concept when you consider what YOU think YOU want in paradise (key word:want) First off, isn't it arrogant to try to predict God's will. Our puny minds can't even begin to comprehend a 4-dimensional object, let alone the infinity of God. If you were born on a desert island and had no access to the Bible or any other information, do you really believe God wouldn't reveal himself to you? All these separate isolated religions all seem to end up with the same moral code. So WTF? Or if heaven is pure love then why does it matter who is there, if everyone is loved equally. Anyone who isn't there would be missed by,everyone, as much as you miss them here on Earth. Another point that has always confused me is: If Heaven or Hell is eternal, then aren't we already there? I'm here on Earth and its pretty sh*tty these days. You could say, "THIS is hell" but I tried that and I don't subscribe to that logic. Again, WTF? It seems that quantum physics is the best thing we have going for us, these days, in trying to realize "God", and all that is pointing to is the realization that consciousness is a fundamental unifying force like gravity or electro-magnetism. Consciousness, I believe, is singular. To me, that means, I/WE are "God" and there are NO individual souls. The best analogy I can think of is a person in a house of infinite mirrors and each mirror is curved slightly different. We are all looking at the mirrors and asking ourselves, "Who is that?" I think "God" is a singular consciousness experiencing reality through the infinite possibilities of life in this Universe. To me the scariest part of death is letting go and accepting your life, after that, its all gravy.