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Is heaven really perfect?

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posted on May, 26 2013 @ 12:51 AM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by smithjustinb
 


I agree. If you ignore all the man made war, laws, dogma, etc., Earth is perfect in every way. The only problem is humans and their greed.


Im not.talking about ignoring anything. Im talking about acknowledging everything as part of the perfection. Theres no standard for perfection nor definition, so atrocities can be included. It comes down to choosing whether or not you think things are as they should be and shouldnt be any other way.




posted on May, 26 2013 @ 12:58 AM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by adjensen
 


Thank you for the honesty ad.


I personally cannot see myself living eternity knowing some of those I love will be suffering forever. I would see other parents/children playing/hanging out and it would always remind me of where my parent/child was, and I don't see how being reminded of where they are everyday could be considered eternal bliss. It would be painful knowing those things, yet there is no pain in heaven.

If god erases my memories of them, wouldn't these other people being with their loved ones seem kind of strange to me? Kind of like I'm somehow left out on that love in some way?

Just a few thoughts that are running through my head.


All these powerful thoughts and yet you seem to be avoiding the only logical answer. There is no heaven. But hey, it also means there is no hell for your loved ones.



posted on May, 26 2013 @ 01:03 AM
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How sweet you are..I praise the faithful...That was tingling.As long as the mind, body and spirit are pulled together



posted on May, 26 2013 @ 01:03 AM
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reply to post by smithjustinb
 


I wouldn't say that things on Earth are the way they should be, unless nature wants to destroy itself. We go against the flow of nature on this planet and it's because of free will. Free will is perfect, but it does have its drawbacks as well, and we are seeing them now.

I'd still rather have free will with all its drawbacks than no free will at all though.



posted on May, 26 2013 @ 01:07 AM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by vethumanbeing
 


I personally believe we are already in heaven. The universe is too complex, perfect, and beautiful for it not to be. I just brought this up in order to get some gears moving and discussion flowing.
If what we believe makes that thing real, then wouldn't that mean hell would not exist? If Christians believe they are going to heaven then they would go, if atheists don't believe in hell then it doesn't exist. So that would mean no one would go to hell, unless of course they wanted to, which I can't think of a reason for anyone wanting to suffer forever.I agree that we are god incarnate, so no argument from me on that point.


Oh you brought up a very good point. The Atheists believe in NO THING so we Believers have a LADDER RUNG up upon them. This Universe is TOO SMART too complex as you say to let us hang in the WIND. It is absolutely perfect in its LOVE for us HUMANS. Hell only exists for those wanting to create it for themselves (THATs the beauty of this thing, you can and will IT to HAPPEN for YOURSELVES). Its entirely up to you, just as in this 3d reality, you create your outcomes, are you rich, are you poor, are you just meandering? The afterlife is not a mirror, its your reality, you had a chance as a material being (much harder) afterlife much easier because its not as tangible, a Gross matter form. Atheists believe in Hell, that is why they are Atheists, Sick thought form (but true as in NO HOPE AVAILABLE). Thoughtforms create places, if enough believe Hell is a destination it will create itself, just as heaven as a desination will manifest. No one has to arrive at any destination someone else has chosen for them-----Hell, Heaven. It can be a place entirely of your own specific choice, the seaside, a mountain top, a forest, Willy Wonkas Chocolate Factory; THERE IS NO HEAVEN OR HELL unless someone has indoctrinated you into a belief of misinformation (LIES). Truely, when you leave this realm you can be anywhere youd prefer, your perfect outcome, no holds bared.
edit on 26-5-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 26 2013 @ 01:08 AM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


What do you call the universe then?

The thing is, you reject Christianity's version of heaven yet can't move past its definition of it. Have you ever thought that maybe Christianity has lied about what it is? Why do you reject their version yet still support that their definition is the only acceptable one?
edit on 26-5-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 26 2013 @ 01:43 AM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by vethumanbeing
 


I personally believe we are already in heaven. The universe is too complex, perfect, and beautiful for it not to be.


It must be nice living a completely sheltered life.

The rest of us, must be in hell, which happens to exist right along side your perfect, beautiful heaven.

I guess you just don't have any windows there, to see the suffering and constant discomfort that creates nature and the rest of this.. place.

brought to life through discarded birth, raised in hell to live on earth..



posted on May, 26 2013 @ 02:06 AM
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reply to post by winofiend
 


What happens on this tiny planet does not define what the universe is as a whole.


That's kind of like a rich guy believing everyone else is rich because of a the lifestyle that he has.
edit on 26-5-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 26 2013 @ 02:11 AM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by jiggerj
 


What do you call the universe then?

The thing is, you reject Christianity's version of heaven yet can't move past its definition of it. Have you ever thought that maybe Christianity has lied about what it is? Why do you reject their version yet still support that their definition is the only acceptable one?
edit on 26-5-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)


I call the universe - the universe: a closed system where energy is constantly being recycled. lol I have no idea how that is connected to the belief in a heaven.

I do not consider Christianity's version of heaven as the only acceptable one. I consider all versions to be utterly false, nonexistent, unprovable, a lie we tell others to make them feel better about losing a loved one.



posted on May, 26 2013 @ 02:13 AM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


What if what You call the universe is what I call heaven? Would you agree that heaven existed in that light? Or do you consider the universe as being unprovable?

You consider heaven to only be after this life, which means you accept Christianity's definition of heaven. They have lied and you have bought it.
edit on 26-5-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 26 2013 @ 05:37 AM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by smithjustinb
 


I wouldn't say that things on Earth are the way they should be, unless nature wants to destroy itself. We go against the flow of nature on this planet and it's because of free will. Free will is perfect, but it does have its drawbacks as well, and we are seeing them now.

I'd still rather have free will with all its drawbacks than no free will at all though.


Like I said, being that perfection is subjective, you are the only person in the universe who can decide what is perfect and what is not. You have decided that earth is not perfect according to your own ideals of what perfection should be.

Consider that "going against the flow of nature" might just be your refusal to regard it as as it should be, or perfect.



posted on May, 26 2013 @ 06:22 AM
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reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 





What if what You call the universe is what I call heaven?


Let's completely destroy all meanings within the English language. What if what you call pizza I call monkey toes? If you are going to construct a conversation at least let's all agree that the meanings of our words can be found in a dictionary. mmMkay?



posted on May, 26 2013 @ 07:05 AM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


Okay, I'm seeing a pattern with your posts. You come into threads and completely ignore the topic at hand and put forth your own dogma. You didn't address anything in the OP, you just went on your own little tirade that is completely off-topic. It happens in almost every thread you post in.

Change the record dude, because it sounds broken.


The body of our thread did not speak to the title, so I answered the body of your thread and the questions there. Specifically:



If heaven is perfect, then how do you account for people being sad or distraught about some of their loved ones suffering in a pit full of fire for eternity? How would god alleviate this problem in heaven? Would he just erase your memories of these people or would he let you keep them?


Yes. A broken record is entirely correct. The truth is not that hard to grasp. Truth is Aleph Mem Tav. Beginning and end with water in the middle. The water is the mechanism for cleaning our temple and this implies that we are baptized into each life in the water until we reach the end. We must reach the end. Unfortunately, some will not.

If you would like to me to answer your question in the title of the OP, I would be glad to.

There were two creations that really comprise one overall creation. There is Heaven / Paradise and there is the fallen material world. One is real and the other is an image. We are in the image, but have one foot in the door of the real. This is how an image works. You are not really in the image. Your consciousness is in the image. This is specifically for the purpose of education. Compare it to a school. While here, we must lean about the true heaven and learn to love others. We cannot enter paradise, which is profoundly better than we can conceive here, until we have grown to maturity. I explained this in my last post.

Midrash

Future bliss can neither be imagined, explained, nor described. We know nothing of its nature, form, greatness, or beauty, its quantity or quality. This much one should know, the phrase, "the world to come," does not imply that it is a world yet to be called into existence; it exists already, but the phrase is employed to describe the life into which those who are in the present stage of existence will be transposed when they throw off this mortal coil.

The Hebrews call it the world to come. The Bible calls it the Heavens, which implies that a new Heaven and Earth are somewhere out there in the heavens. Why would you want to go there?

Deuteronomy 6

10 When the Lord your God brings you into the land he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, to give you—a land with large, flourishing cities you did not build, 11 houses filled with all kinds of good things you did not provide, wells you did not dig, and vineyards and olive groves you did not plant—then when you eat and are satisfied, 12 be careful that you do not forget the Lord, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

Right now, we are slaves to the law. That law is the really the laws of nature. We are free from the restrictions once we gain salvation form bondage. Egypt is Earth and it is a refinery. Our inheritance is the Heavens.

Deuteronomy 4

19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the Lord your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. 20 But as for you, the Lord took you and brought you out of the iron-smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be the people of his inheritance, as you now are.

Your inheritance allows you unrestricted access from the guardian of the law.

Galatians 3

23 Before the coming of this faith,[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Within these verses, you see baptism and being clothed with Christ. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the universe. We need a different Robe for that. Heaven is perfect when you are. You are a creator and God's Child. Look at what he does and you will do the same, only with a new Crown (Mind) and Body (Robe).

The answer is, "I am not entirely sure, but it sounds amazing!"

1 Corinthians 2:9

However, as it is written: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived" -- the things God has prepared for those who love him--

This is the reason we cannot fully answer the question. We are not capable.

edit on 26-5-2013 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 26 2013 @ 08:10 AM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by Lazarus Short
 


So you don't think a pit of eternal fire exists? If not, then how is knowing your loved ones don't exist anymore any better? You'd still be without them, and that loss would still be there.


So you think I'm an annihilationist? No, no more than I'm a damnationist. Please understand what I said: Jesus the Christ is the savior of ALL men, just especially those who believe. All men - I believe in the redemption, salvation, and reconciliation of all men - in fact, of the entire created cosmos.



posted on May, 26 2013 @ 08:49 AM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


Wow, really? You are just SO turned off to a friggin WORD that you refuse to even consider it!

How can you be so childish with a response like that? Like I said, you have bought Christianity's definition of heaven HOOK, LINE, AND SINKER.

Why are you so gullible? So much for you being able to think for yourself.
edit on 26-5-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)
edit on 26-5-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 26 2013 @ 09:03 AM
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Nothing to see here folks. Just having a little lunch.


edit on 5/26/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 26 2013 @ 09:09 AM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


Here you go:

Definition of heaven

It took me all of two seconds. So who's being childish again?
edit on 26-5-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)


Here's another just in case that isn't "reputable" enough for you.

Merriam-Webster

I hate to have to do all the hard work for you. I know googling things is hard, right?
edit on 26-5-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)[/edit]
edit on 26-5-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)
extra DIV



posted on May, 26 2013 @ 09:43 AM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by jiggerj
 


Here you go:

Definition of heaven

It took me all of two seconds. So who's being childish again?
edit on 26-5-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)


Here's another just in case that isn't "reputable" enough for you.

Merriam-Webster

I hate to have to do all the hard work for you. I know googling things is hard, right?
edit on 26-5-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)[/edit]
edit on 26-5-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)


Well, ya got me! Good show. I googled 'universe'. Funny how heaven isn't mentioned under that word. I apologize and my statement is retracted if there's still time.
extra DIV



posted on May, 26 2013 @ 10:10 AM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


It wasn't about me proving you wrong, I just hate that religion in general has completely debased the meaning of certain words. So much so that even atheists can't look away from their certain definitions of those words.

That's the problem with religion, not only does it restrict its followers thought processes, it also restricts the thought processes of those who do not believe.

Religion is the one who redefined what heaven is, not me, and unfortunately most people can only see their version as the only "acceptable" version, even if they don't accept it. Religion WANTS you to believe that either heaven isn't real or it only comes after this life. It's a win-win in their opinion.



posted on May, 26 2013 @ 12:05 PM
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reply to post by Lazarus Short
 


So what are you exactly? If you're not an annihilationist or a damnationist then wouldn't that mean you are a universalist? So you believe everyone will get into heaven? If not, then whete do the others go if not hell?





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