Empty Words and Euphemism

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
Of course, blame my so-called beliefs. Blame my inabilities. I wouldn’t expect anything less. But that doesn’t change the fact that you are unable to paint a clear enough picture, to produce anything tangible, to lead one down a path of sound arguments to your conclusions. This is likely because you have been lead there by the hand, perhaps by youtube videos, by the harness, with someone else showing you the way, and you forget how you’ve gotten there. If you arrived with your own reason, you would be able to explain how without having to tell people to "feel into the depths of their being" to do so.

I believe you make a good point there. Sound logic and argument never convinced me of the existence of metaphysical realities. It was a very dramatic and totally unexpected personal experience that happened to me one day which swept away all materialistic notions with one clean stroke. Everything was turned upside down and inside out in a matter of moments, and try as I may, I have been unable to reclaim my once-materialistic outlook.

One moment of direct experience was worth more than a lifetime of intellectual contemplation and deliberation.

reply to post by akushla99


It is quite obviously an opinion. Do you not agree with my opinion?

reply to post by mysticnoon


Our whole lives are direct experiences.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
I could ask the same of you.

And now you are making all sorts of erroneous assumptions about me, including something about being educated via youtube, etc. Oh well, that is what tends to happen when people are not actually face to face, feeling one another as real people.

Good night everyone.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


...and using your little pet 3 step program there, maybe you could see your way to applying it to the color red...maybe I'll be able to see it!?...you seem to be pretty convinced it worked before...

A99

reply to post by akushla99


I already explained to you that I don't believe the color red, or any qualia for that matter, exist. And yes that is an opinion in case you were wondering.

Is that your argument?

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by akushla99

 

It is quite obviously an opinion. Do you not agree with my opinion?

Whether I agree , or not, is irrelevant...

...and if I disagree, will you still talk to an ignorant one?

A99

Originally posted by bb23108
But to simply reject the entire argument based on your logic that only "seeing is believing" is not so open in my opinion. As I said in my first posts, it was never going to work the only way you find acceptable. But no harm done in trying.

Now that I recall how I used to think, which included being very adamant about this "seeing is believing" schtick, and how I had to be hit over the head with a metaphorcial sledgehammer before I could see the light, so to speak, I understand better where LesMisanthrope is coming from.

My perception now is that he is exactly where he needs to be at this point in time. Of course, that does not mean that the debate should cease.

reply to post by akushla99

Whether I agree , or not, is irrelevant...

...and if I disagree, will you still talk to an ignorant one?

A99

I talk to them all the time. Whether I'm talking to one right now or not is uncertain, for he/she fails to complete a sentence, let alone an argument.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by akushla99

 

I already explained to you that I don't believe the color red, or any qualia for that matter, exist. And yes that is an opinion in case you were wondering.

Is that your argument?

Qualia LesMisantropic, if you did not believe in such would not be defining or defending it? Its not a matter in the belief of the color red its more a point of faith that it exists. If you cannot see it, then you desribe your own metaphor for your visual experience. Some people see red as green whoa be to them.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by akushla99

 

Whether I agree , or not, is irrelevant...

...and if I disagree, will you still talk to an ignorant one?

A99

I talk to them all the time. Whether I'm talking to one right now or not is uncertain, for he/she fails to complete a sentence, let alone an argument.

edit on 30-4-2013 by LesMisanthrope because: (no reason given)

...and failing to complete a sentence would mean what to you?...I'm not arguing with you...
...and you are certain your 'argument' is complete?

A99

Originally posted by bb23108

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
I could ask the same of you.

And now you are making all sorts of erroneous assumptions about me, including something about being educated via youtube, etc. Oh well, that is what tends to happen when people are not actually face to face, feeling one another as real people.

Good night everyone.

bb23108 forget about that guy, besides its the erroneous assumptions about us all that make everything more interesting (do they know where I/you live yet and did you divulge any information). Marshmallow peanuts in the mail to you 5lbs now.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by mysticnoon

 

Our whole lives are direct experiences.

You would have to relate that to something; a direct experience to WHAT Past Present, Future or Exponencial? If our whole lives are direct experiences are they the mirror of which experience?

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


"I already explained to you that I don't believe the color red, or any qualia for that matter, exist." quote LesMisanthrope

Forget the qualia brother/sister, red is at least measureable, is a frequency...I cannot see it...why?

A99

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by Bluesma

 

You've read Lacan? How you made it through I dare not imagine.

LOL! I usually just read without attempting to understand in the moment. My mind will chew on it subconsciously and bring it back up over time in forms I can better grasp. The ideas often will re-emerge "as needed"- in response something I am experiencing or observing, suddenly whole and clear in meaning.

I consider it "subconscious learning" (though that is a subjective description of what it feels to be- objectively I have no idea-). But because of this mechanism, I cannot take credit (alone) for anything that comes out of me! No matter how "original" and "self created" it feels to be, it might just be stuff my subconscious picked up along the way, or peices it picked up and just re-assembled differently.
(editted to add- I do attempt to moderate what is expressed however, and assume responsibility for lack of tact or respect - just to clarify...)

(this is relevant to the discussion about ego and it's influencability, but I digress.. sorry)

The utility of an idea may certainly be the distinguishing factor in whether we're able to grasp it, maybe more so than the way it is delivered?

(I have been on both ends of incredibly crazy lack of comprehension between two people, despite lengthy effort and perception by onlookers that the message is clarified well!)

Perhaps if someone percieves no utility for a non-physical entity, they just will not be able to grasp the concept no matter what.

I say that because I often percieve that religion has a great utility in emotional channeling when someone is in a state of powerlessness and needs to develop endurance and delayed gratification skills.

To get through tough times, in other words? I wrote a paper in high school philosophy class on my assertion that religion is an important and necessary element for children.
Like in the story of "The Little Match Girl"- which describes how we can endure great challenge using such beliefs. (then my hypothesis was that the religion should be dropped the moment self empowerment is possible, because if carried on past that point, it becomes less beneficial and becomes limiting instead).


Later I realized that my view was based upon my own experience of childhood- a difficult and dangerous period of powerlessness, in which endurance was needed. I did not know back then that many children did not have the same needs or experiences.

What I am getting at is that if you take take two individuals-

- one is currently in need of mental tools for endurance, development of skills in delayed gratification and long term creation

- the other currently in need of mental tools which are better adapted for the directing of power in precise and intentful ways, faster gratification and creation

It is possible that if you propose the wrong tool to either one, Perhaps they will not be able to grasp it, no matter how much they consciously try to, and no matter how well it is worded?

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


weird I just finished reading zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance and the book is all about rhetoric , the classical view of the world and the romantic view , and quality !

great read , nice post Will read again to get a better understanding

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


I know your thread history. lol

I understand where you are coming from however you are not understanding where Merton is coming from. That's the problem. I understand you both...

Based on the experience of Thomas Merton he undoubtedly knows what he is talking about through his own personal and mystical experiences, that which you do not. So be it.

To you, it's nothing.

reply to post by Bluesma

Perhaps if someone percieves no utility for a non-physical entity, they just will not be able to grasp the concept no matter what.

I think this is true to an extent but reversed. They grasp the content, therefor they see no utility for it. Seeing no utility in something one cannot grasp seems a little premature of judgement.

It is possible that if you propose the wrong tool to either one, Perhaps they will not be able to grasp it, no matter how much they consciously try to, and no matter how well it is worded?

I can agree with this. So should we allow them to choose whatever tool suits their fancy? Or should we guide them into one avenue or another. I think it is their right to choose, but eventually they will have to stand up for themselves and heed their own reason and doubts.

Great points.

reply to post by MamaJ

Based on the experience of Thomas Merton he undoubtedly knows what he is talking about through his own personal and mystical experiences, that which you do not. So be it.

This presupposes that I have never had a mystical experience.

I understand the words of what Merton speaks, except he forms them into something intelligibile and tries to imply divinity by using terms such as "the infinite" and equating the incomplete sentence of "I am", which really means nothing, by somehow connecting it to the something someone wrote about God in a book?

The thing is, no one has experienced anything infinite, no one understands why he would call himself indefinable then attempt to define himself, no one understands what it means when he says the depths of his own existence, and if they do, they have made it up in their minds, imagining what they see in their heads, and not seeing any glimpse of what Merton has experienced.

This is seduction, not explanation.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope

I think this is true to an extent but reversed. They grasp the content, therefor they see no utility for it. Seeing no utility in something one cannot grasp seems a little premature of judgement.

Oh- I guess I didn't explain well what I meant- I suggest no conscious judgement! I 'm refering to the subconscious mind influencing what the conscious mind can percieve, grasp, and judge.

I can agree with this. So should we allow them to choose whatever tool suits their fancy? Or should we guide them into one avenue or another. I think it is their right to choose, but eventually they will have to stand up for themselves and heed their own reason and doubts.

I am refering to the subconscious, and it's drive to search out and find what is needed, rather than what is prefered, fancied or valued by the conscious will.

I guess everyone can do what they wish (including trying to guide someone into one avenue or another).
For me, I find that can lead to an inner conflict.

The answer to that question, in the case of religious belief, might be dependant upon what you value more, between things like physical survival or accumulating knowledge,

Developing skills in endurance, or in force;

mastering delayed gratification, or instant gratification.