reply to post by LesMisanthrope
Thank you for your post of that letter and your explanation of its effectiveness!
Those writing skills are way beyond mine, to state the obvious! However, I cannot imagine any verbalization, no matter how perfectly presented, would
significantly sway you relative to this matter of consciousness. LesMis. What some of us are trying to communicate goes beyond mental and emotional
matters, so it is inherently very difficult, if not impossible, to present an objectified offering to you that would move you to what is beyond all
objectifying! But that won't keep some of us from at least saying more about all of this...
Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
If someone has experienced God or a soul, and I haven’t, how come they are unable to explain it to me? This is what I wonder.
Some of us
have already answered your question - fundamentally your materialistic belief system will not allow it. However, it is also not a simple matter to
truly recognize God, as this recognition transcends the body-mind.
Our materialistic tendencies to believe that we are the body run very deep and require profound understanding and whole bodily equanimity to fully
recognize that this is false. However, one can have moments of such recognition, even often - but the body-mind rages on and distracts us from that
In other words, if it were "easy" to convince anyone, then everyone would simply understand that we are inherently free, transcendent of mortal
body-mind identification (though not separating out of life as some separate conscious entity), and that would be that. But we have lived this
ignorance for lifetimes, so it is not something that generally will occur over a weekend (though that does seem to be what some new-age talking heads
like to sell these days via the internet and lecture tours).
You have also told me that even though you cannot prove you are the body-mind, you still assume it as self-evident. Why you believe in materialism is
because it doesn't apparently betray you, as you at one time mentioned. However, your senses, your whole body-mind dies. I have mentioned
consciousness does not age - something anyone can sense, it seems to me - but you again argued that no such thing as consciousness exists.
Okay, so you only trust your senses - and yet I have repeatedly pointed out that the senses only reflect a very small fraction of our reality, even
the simplest object cannot be seen as it actually appears in reality. But still you must trust your senses above all else because you know of nothing
else and seem to be afraid to open up beyond this possibility - even though you do admit intellectually that via the senses we cannot ever know how
anything actually appears in reality - not to mention, what any thing actually IS.
I have asked you to relax the thought process and feel into the depth of being, but you never got back to me about that. Most people are too busy
obsessively identifying with the endless stream of thoughts because it gives them a sense of separate identity, and so such an exercise is either
impossible for them or very uncomfortable. You understand this mentally from what I have gathered, but you do not grant yourself the opportunity to
actually observe this process fully and see the self-inflicted contraction of the body-mind this constant identification with thinking results in.
When you see that you are doing this to yourself, you will drop it in this moment, then in the next moment, etc. It is actually a real practice. Then
perhaps you will see that you simply witness all this arising - not as some separated observer, but all the while participating in life because
consciousness is not separate from form.
You trust that the external world of objects is self-evident, as belief in scientific-materialism requires. But no one has ever actually experienced
directly an objective external world. There is no external nor internal world - we are only ever perceiving the so-called "outside" world, not
actually really experiencing it being external directly. I know you understand this, but it makes no difference to you because your need to believe in
the external world of objects as your only reality, runs emotionally deeper than your mental understanding of my contrary argument.
On and on I have questioned you about your belief system, and you argue it very much in a religious-like way - because your sense of reality is
structured around your materialistic beliefs. And obviously you are very intelligent, but you will not open yourself up to the possibility that you
are consciousness. You cannot accept this because it requires you to release your subjective hold, your sense of identity, that only occurs when you
objectify objects and others - and this is a very emotional matter that cannot be upended by verbal argument.
And in the end, only you can recognize that you are consciousness itself, beyond your assumptions of subjectivity-objectivity, internal-external, etc
- and that is likely a frightening concept, though it is not in reality, because in reality it is already the case.
edit on 30-4-2013 by bb23108 because: (no reason given)