Near-death experience is not a figment

Well I am not a religious person at all, but over the decades I started to believe in reincarnation. What these people are experiencing in their NDEs, is the usual path into the afterlife.

Just recently I discovered the book "Journey of Souls" from Dr Michael Newton. The book was released in the 90ties - before everybody got internet at home. Thats important because he studied the experiences of about 2000 patients (when I remember correctly) for over more than one decade. And there was not really an opportunity for them to share information or concepts between them, despite that their accounts fitting well together - painting a comprehensive picture of the afterlife.

He started to get interested into that by accident, he was and is basically a specialist for chronic pain therapy. One of his patients started to talk about his death in his past life under hypnosis and the way he died, caused the chronic pain in his shoulder - nobody was able to explain. He cured this like other patients, but that made this case special.

The question was, where are we, when we are between lifes?

The afterlife is more complex than most people might think. Its well structured place and we are here for a good and simple reason. We are more than you might think we are and religions are playing no role at all.

On the other side, we are existing as "clouds", Clouds of different color. The color talks about our experience level - which might increase after reincarnating many times. And that's what we are striving for, to become an experienced soul. Have you ever wondered, why some people even of young age are full of wisdom and care so much for others? Or people who are old enough but still acting like fools?

Most of the book are transcripts of sessions. Talking about dying, the way you return to the afterlife, why you are always together with the same souls through life’s and how you would choose your next life.

For me it is a comprenehsive explanations for almost everything. I am believing to 100% in his work and others continued his research. web.

I don't know if its available to Amazon, but I was lucky to get a softcopy.

Originally posted by DestroyDestroyDestroy
reply to post by CaticusMaximus

 

Except that it is "just drugs." A chemical, to be more exact. I've done plenty of research into the effects of the substance which must not be named (btw ATS auto censors it, not me), and various trip reports indicate a very similar trip between users including tunnels, space elves, comprehension of a universal language, etc, all of which are very similar to NDE reports.

This, coupled with our belief that we trip on said unnamed substance during birth, death, and sleep (it causes dreams), suggests that NDEs truly are simply hallucinogenic experiences. There is a death phase, during this phase you are pumped full of Dimitry, and so you trip.

What you claim about hallucinogenic substances not having similar effects on different people is absolutely false; there are plenty of people who experience similar things attributed with certain substances. Take the great buffalo spirit associated with a certain cactus, or the ancestral spirit guide associated with a certain African plant root.

As much as I'd love to believe that life exists without heart, brain, or body, I'm not going to delude myself into doing so simply on faith alone. Now, is it more likely that people seeing, hearing, feeling, and overall experiencing a phenomenon, which is very akin to a hallucination, is attributed to a chemical or some magical hocus pocus fairytale BS?

We cannot possibly comprehend death, so I'm not going to waste my time trying. It'll come when it comes and we will all be enlightened as to whether anything comes after eventually. To claim anything more is to lie to oneself.

Well I think that if the chemical in question causes both NDE experiences and dreams, and also causes similar experiences in each person, we would all be dreaming about tunnels, lights and dead relatives every night.
NDE's tend to be crystal clear experiences, not at all trip-like or abstract. People often describe them as the most clear and lucid experiences of their lives.
As for which is more likely, this phenomenon being caused by a chemical, or "some magical hocus pocus fairytale BS", I'd say the answer is neither. Do we only have those two options to choose from? How about the ability of consciousness to survive death of the physical body, caused by a natural process we simply don't understand yet? Sounds just as likely to me, considering how little we understand the nature of reality.

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


No one said NDE all have light, warmth, comfort.
About 15-25 percent of nde are of a hellish nature.

reply to post by DestroyDestroyDestroy

Concerning me:
Personal experience at NDE:
Car wreck at 18 yo and electrocution at 37 yo.

Concerning you: It amazes me the comfort
people get from the lies they tell themselves.

Originally posted by C64Warrior
I discovered the book "Journey of Souls" from Dr Michael Newton.

Make sure you read the reviews before buying this book...

There are quite a few extremely suspicious reviews.

I did some research on Newton a while ago and it's fairly clear to me now that Newton never did these sessions and that his books are fiction. The most obvious analysis is the consistent language and somewhat cliched choice of past lives of his patients. If these were indeed transcribed from real patient tapes as Newton claimed, you would at least expect some variation in the text but there is very little.

Of his claimed 7000 sessions prior to 1994, I'm not aware of a single patient ever coming forwards to confirm Newton's claims, and he has never shown evidence of the tapes he claims to have transcribed.

His bio says: "He holds a doctorate in Counseling Psychology, is a certified Master Hypnotherapist and is a member of the American Counseling Association"

It neglects to mention where Newton studied for his Ph.D. Also, anyone can join the American Counseling Association for $159 so this says nothing by itself either.

Newton claimed to be a 'traditional therapist' before getting into past life therapy. This may be true. However, I did an extensive search to find any listings for his therapy offices up to 1994 when he said he was taking thousands of patients, and came up with nothing. That by itself is very odd.

Newton has now expanded his original book into a series of books plus a small empire churning out training courses and the rest, so there is a clear financial motivation for him to continue with the story however.

Life Between Lives — Dr. Michael Newton

I wish that I had researched this guy even just a tiny bit to see if he was legit before I purchased his book. If he was indeed a legitimate PhD psychotherapist it would be easy to find a bio that provided his alma mater and degrees licenses and certifications. I could find no such information. Even on Michael Newton's web page for the Newton Institute for Life Between Lives Hypnotherapy he is extremely vague about his credentials saying only, "He holds a doctorate in Counseling Psychology, is a certified Master Hypnotherapist and is a member of the American Counseling Association."

If you look up the American Counseling Association you will find that there are no credentials or licensing required for membership. Since he does not provide any verifiable credentials licensing certifications or degrees I for one suspect that he is a complete fraud. The glowing reviews found here on Amazon show how extremely naïve and undiscerning readers are. Amazon

What are details of his qualifications? Where did he get his doctorate from and what is exactly is a Master Hypnotherapist? It sounds like a karate champion or something, but an academic qualification? I highly doubt it.

If he is lying about his qualifications why would I believe anything else he says? I fear death like most other people, and I so wanted this book not to be a fraud, but unfortunately it appears to me that I was misled. Amazon

The "case studies" in this book sound very fake and made up. They seem limited by Mr. Newton's imagination as appears through the repeated mention of "tunnel effect" and "bright light". These images are known very commonly as post-death images in all cultures and don't really convey anything new. Mr. Newton, get some REAL cases and then write a book!! Amazon

I bought this book several months ago after seeing all the positive online reviews. I am *still* trying to finish it. It starts out promising, but quickly became not only disturbing and depressing, but a rather boring read. Buy at your own risk. Amazon

reply to post by slugger9787


This presupposes that Heaven and Hell are the only possibilities. Which is a very Christian angle on the afterlife. Unfortunately, Christianity is not the world's only religion. There's just as much possibility that Heaven and Hell don't exist, and that the end of life is just that: an end.

~ Wandering Scribe

I am a believer.

reply to post by Casualboy100


Strange a almost word for word...
I had Nearly the Exact same experience whilst having major heart surgery (Quad Bypass) with serious complications, requiring 11 plates of blood. All of which I saw whilst above my body! It went from the deepest darkest warm Velvet blue to the brightest whitest light! I'd had an experience 1yr before & can honestly say that at NO Time was I ever frightened! 'NEVER.' Infact to my kids I likened it to 'A Walk in the park!' & Still do!
Now don't get me wrong, after & since the op it seriously hurts like a Mutha....
As also I have a broken back/neck =7 Damaged vertebrae! but bizarrely I Forget about having the op. even though I have severe constant pain, yet i Remember my out of body experiences so deeply intense & so vividly that I regularly dream about both events and Have NO Fear of death! And being Ex forces I know/understand what it means to be scared! Weird eh? It's so bizarre, like UFOs, Exopolitics, Bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster- if you talk about it- yr 'Nuts' or some half baked dipstick TV Skeptic Makes you out to be some dumb CrotchRot Retard about subjects they never even do the homework or background FACT FINDING ANALYSIS WORK on! Knowing it makes serious scientific work so stigmatised, it Ruins/black lists whole careers.
Oh well better go check myself in the Psych ward....
"Err..Anybody seen my ex long sleeve jacket with straps...?"

reply to post by C64Warrior


That's a great title and I'm curious what he writes about this ,going to find and read this book if I can find it in the local bookstore...

My son had an NDE, 3 or so years ago. He had a terrrible flu when the Swine Flu was going around, and a borderline weak heart. I didn't realize he was in danger of dying, and was debating about taking him to the walk in clinic, but he wasn't well enough to sit in the chair, so he was on the couch all day. He wanted to stay on the couch so we went to bed, and he apparently changed his mind and made it up the stairs, but didn't lie down, he collapsed and was out of his body at about midnight.

He said, that it was bright and lit like noon, and he had super senses, could hear a pin drop miles away. He couldn't move his feet, or look down, but understood that his heart had stopped, that he had to make a choice to stay or to go home. He told me that he would have been far happier home, but he wanted to help. There was a light being on the wall, and after he decided to stay, he still couldn't move. When he thought he needed help to move towards his body, he was able to and look down. He was standing over a vortex, half on the bed and half off, and he went back to his body in a flash.

He was completely cured, completely well, when he opened his eyes. His illness had left completely, and he's hardly been sick since then, whereas up until that time, he was sick half the year. And we'd had numerous tests done.

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


I have been watching and reading this thread and wondering if I should participate.
I have had three near death experiences, at about 7,14,28 , each one different , and these events have still left me sitting on the fence. I had some dreams probably about six months after the last one . It has left the impression that the warm fuzzy one ( age 7) combined with the dreams is that it might not be heaven in the classical sense. Rather I got more of a ufo? /watchers/other dementions (spelling).
It's like there are people watching us,,looking out for us.

My husband insists, there is nothing ,when your dead your dead. He's a strange one, i think he's tricking me?

I have had the warm fuzzy spinny light angel one at 7.
At 14 I had the film of your life one and the feeling like you have not done what you came for.
At 28 I had a more scarey one where I was having a little trouble moving (stroke/bleed) while blacked out but I was crawling to a cliff in blackness but I knew the cliff was there and got to the edge and would not look over too scared. Came to. Then came to massive head ache couldn't walk properly ect .
I was fishing
and close the waters edge maybe my brain made that waters edge , the cliff edge., if yas get me. 1%

I suppose I am meant to be changed by these experiences like other's report , but I guess I feel sort of dead anyway, weird .lol The lights are on but nobodys home lol She's not there. lol.

Originally posted by DestroyDestroyDestroy

Except that it is "just drugs." A chemical, to be more exact. I've done plenty of research into the effects of the substance which must not be named (btw ATS auto censors it, not me), and various trip reports indicate a very similar trip between users including tunnels, space elves, comprehension of a universal language, etc, all of which are very similar to NDE reports.

Ive read hundreds of these reports as well. I find it hard to believe you have done so, because associating NDEs as being identical in nature to these reports is simply glaringly false.

While there are similarities, its like saying "I saw a giant red mechanical apple driving down the road the other day. It couldnt possibly be anything other than an apple, because it was red, and all red things are apples!"

And you mention "space elves".... where the hell have you ever read an NDE report about "space elves"

I think that about sums about your expertise on the subject matter.

Originally posted by DestroyDestroyDestroy

We cannot possibly comprehend death

Perhaps *YOU* cannot comprehend it... but that doesnt mean *others* cannot. You are using inductive reasoning, and its leading you to false conclusions.

Originally posted by DestroyDestroyDestroy
reply to [url=http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread942249/pg2#pid16287855]

 

...

This, coupled with our belief that we trip on said unnamed substance during birth, death, and sleep (it causes dreams), suggests that NDEs truly are simply hallucinogenic experiences. There is a death phase, during this phase you are pumped full of Dimitry, and so you trip.

...

I can understand your arguments and where you are coming from, however I hope you can also see why I am struggling with the logic in what I highlighted above. If this "unnamed substance", which you believe is the cause of NDEs (as do many people), is also present at during "birth, death, and sleep (it causes dreams)" then why are dream experiences so variable?

There are variations in NDEs, for sure. There are positive and negative NDEs. Positive NDEs, however, have a few key elements that fall just short of being universal. (the light, feeling of being apart from body, enhanced cognition, etc.) Here is an interesting review of common elements in NDEs: near-death.com... Take, for example, that 75% of Christians and Atheists feel "overwhelming love" as part of the NDE - this is taken from a database of over 3,200 NDEs.

Why don't at least 75% of our dreams make us feel "overwhelming love"? If it is the same chemical that causes dreams causing the NDEs, wouldn't they be more similar to NDEs?

If one might argue that it is a matter of quantity of the "unnamed substance" that is released that is the reason for the difference between the NDE experience and dreams, then I would still wonder why our dream experiences aren't more universal. My husband and I are both fascinated by dreams and we like to share what we dreamed the night before almost every day. We've never had dreams that were even close to being similar - not just on the same night, but comparing any dream we've ever had. They are all very unique, different stories, different people, different emotions, etc. I think the key question I have is this: Why would this "unnamed substance" create such universal experiences in death but such disparate experiences in dreams?

I don't have the answers, but I personally believe that NDEs represent something far more profound than just a chemically-induced hallucination.

reply to post by Unity_99


I can imagine the worries you had to endure in that time, I have a son to the knowing of loosing him by some unknown virus chokes me, but that I'd not think about every day , because I wouldn't have a life but the danger always lurks

Gladly you and your son are doing well...

reply to post by 0bserver1


Well we were really worried about his health in general, ie, being home half the time from school since he was about 14, barely passing because of it, numerous tests. He's 6 2 and very low energy and very thin, 150 lbs on a good day. But he's gentle and intelligent with a learning disability and basically the one who helps me the most, he's a beautiful angel to me. He was around 17 when this happened. I hadn't even realized how sick he was, or would have taken him to the hospital, thought we had leeway about walk in clinic still, and he was on pain killers to take down his temp.

When he told me this when I first woke up, and was sitting on the computer wide awake, and without any symptoms of the flu, just about died myself. The thought of even checking for him and that we could have found him lifeless that morning horrified me.

But he told me there was no way he would have left, he knew the family needed help in this world.

reply to post by 0bserver1


I heard a story.. it's quite sad. So i'm not going to say who, in connection to me, it was. Just what happened.

They were passing on from an unfortunate illness and just before they "died" they said to those around them "Oh my God, there's a beautiful door... I'm going through it..." And then sadly, they passed.

I won't ever believe there's nothing. Not because of that story particularly, as i already believed. But i'm sure it's a great comfort for those they left behind.

No one of those who recover from cardiac arrest tells us what to expect next. Here on ATS we're discussing so much info, and our future is in haze. Should we expect a war, a meteorite impact, a supervolcano eruption, an economic collapse, or gradual positive changes? All we learn from these experiences is that we're here to help our relatives. But I already knew this without any NDEs. Seems like we are not supposed to know anything beside that. Or we are not yet ready to know.

Originally posted by DestroyDestroyDestroy
While we're speaking in absolutes, an NDE is a hallucination. If you have any actual evidence that it is not, please do share.

Originally posted by Kandinsky
They had details that they shouldn't have known about. Things like descriptions of the attending staff when the patient had been brought in unconscious or had been technically 'dead' for a period of time.

For the sake of the philosophy on which ordinary contemporary science is based, how would you expect such evidence to the contrary be presented?

One could equally make the claim that 'your' subjective experience of everything is entirely just your hallucination, including the premise that there are chemicals, brains, synapses, and electrochemical firing thresholds mediating such experience, while in theoretical- 'fact' the basis of such experience could be based on an entirely different model altogether.

Thanks for the discussion.

Whenever a chemical reaction is encountered, somebody immediately declares it 'scientifically debunked' and 'materialistic'. Chemical reactions accompany our perception, emotional reactions, etc. The presence of chemicals in the body-soul link seems to be natural. I don't see how chemicals may change anything. They are molecules, and our bodies are comprised of molecules, so what? If the body is a remotely operated 'avatar' or an environmental suit for the soul, you can expect some technical sides to it as long as the soul is connected to the body.

reply to post by mrkeen


If this ever will be proven, my question would be " how is it possible that my soul or spirit is bound to this body , why can't I switch between bodies ?"