Near-death experience is not a figment

I think NDE research is classic frontier science and could turn out to be an emerging standard of future science. As such, there's a lot of resistance to pursuing the concept when it's so difficult to rationalise according to what we know now. This means that even when reputable specialists provide studies that indicate an interesting phenomenon, their papers are marginalised or dismissed.

I'm not pushing the view that NDEs are *proof* of an 'afterlife' or that consciousness exists separately to our physical bodies. Not at all. I just believe there's an interesting signal there and it's the function of science to get objective on its ass.

A Dutch cardiologist, Pim Van Lommel, encountered patients who told him about events they recalled from major surgery or following cardiac arrest. They had details that they shouldn't have known about. Things like descriptions of the attending staff when the patient had been brought in unconscious or had been technically 'dead' for a period of time.

We (Van Lommel et al., 2001) found that 282 patients (82%) had no recollection
of the period of cardiac arrest, of their period of unconsciousness, whereas 62
patients (18%) reported some recollection of the time of clinical death (NDE). Of
these patients 41 (12%) had a core experience with a score of 6 or higher, and 21
(6%) had a superficial NDE. In the core group 23 patients (7%) reported a deep or
very deep experience with a score of 10 or higher. In our study about 50% of the
patients with an NDE reported awareness of being dead, or had positive emotions,
about 25% of the patients had an out-of-body experience, 30% reported moving
through a tunnel, about 25% had communication with “the Light” or observed
colors, about 30% of the patients had an observation of a celestial landscape or
had a meeting with deceased relatives, 13% experienced a life review, and 8%
experienced a border.

NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCE, CONSCIOUSNESS, AND THE BRAIN

A lot of explanations have been applied to this phenomenon and I don't think any of them have the substance to lay claim to the final word. For that reason alone, it'd be good to see more medical professionals taking it on.

Here in the UK, Dr Sam Parnia has been seeking to get more information about these claims with the AWARE study. He and his cardiac team have placed objects and images in the ward to see if any claimants of NDE experiences can describe them and validate their accounts. He's drawn some fire from other NDE researchers because his viewpoint seems to doubt the reality of NDEs. In my opinion, whether he's looking to debunk NDEs, or not, he's set up a useful environment to find out.

If anyone's interested and has the time, I've found some of the Skeptiko podcasts a great way to get into the subject. I mean, it's better than listening to commercial radio. You can play some of the shows whilst driving to work or cooking in the kitchen. His guests have included all the major current figures involved in the discussion. So you'll find interviews with Van Lommel as well as challenges by well-known skeptical figures like Dr Wiseman.

reply to post by DavidBourke


That's really a nice story , if you hear such a thing .. you know it has to be true....

Originally posted by DestroyDestroyDestroy
Don't know if we can really discuss NDEs without violating ATS T&C's. The reason why people all have similar experiences during NDEs is that they are all tripping on the same hallucinogen, '___', which is flooded into the brain from the pineal gland during the death process.

Some food for thought, your brain stays active for a few minutes after your heart stops. A '___' trip usually lasts around 10 minutes.

Again, however, we cannot discuss the effects of mind altering drugs on ATS. A near death experience is simply a very powerful hallucination.

The pineal gland is used to show the information for the brain with chemicals but is not the source of the information. The biological machine with is chemicals is the "screen"/"tv" where you show the information for the conscious mind.

reply to post by 0bserver1


I, personally, do not believe in NDEs.

When my heart stopped for 2 minutes I didn't experience any bright light, warmth, tunnel, or loved ones. I experienced a claustrophobic darkness, and a paralysis which was terrifying as I felt like my consciousness was slipping away. It was like falling asleep, but knowing that you weren't breathing and thus would not wake up again. It was one of the worst experiences of my life, and is the reason why my own continued experiences of sleep paralysis are so horrible.

When a friend of mine had a heart attack at a theme park she told me what it was like to die as well, and she also didn't have warmth, light, and love in a tunnel. She said that it was overwhelmingly cold, and that her body ached and screamed, but she also couldn't move. She also experienced the sensation of wanting to go to sleep, and that her conscious will was losing the battle to stay awake. Her heart had been stopped longer than mine by the time the EMTs brought her back.

So no, all of the tunnels, bright lights, circles of loved ones, and warm love which is supposedly always present... that's a lie.

Science doesn't say it's a memory, or from the imagination. The current trend in neuroscience is that NDEs are hallucinations brought out by oxygen starvation, coupled with intense and extreme belief. When your brain is suffocating you start hallucinating, and those hallucinations (like all hallucinations) are constructed off of conscious and subconscious expectations from you, the one whose brain is dying.

~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


That is really a sad and terrifying story to read.. I'm not an expert on this but I did once had this experience.. For what I can hear of your story you still were conscience and surrounded in darkness it almost has similar tellings as the video from the poster on the first page about George Rodonaia he also was covered scared in darkness but later seemed to see the light that then was drawn to him..

One day we will all know , and we all hope that it would be there.. I don't hope your experience will block things in your life , or maybe you now live it in full because of that.

My mom had a Near-Death-Experience once while undergoing some kind of hospitalization when she was injected with some kind of painkiller or something she was allergic to. Except it was a death experience, because she was dead. But she remembers hovering above her body and she could hear and see the doctors swearing and everything.

reply to post by Kandinsky


I've done earlier topics around NDE's and also put Dr Pim van Lommel to the foreground, I also do think this could be one day ground breaking science in combination with quantum physics and quantum biology . So I think we are getting closer to unravel this truth

reply to post by Kandinsky

Originally posted by Kandinsky
...it'd be good to see more medical professionals taking it on.

I believe several have...

They don't receive the respect they deserve although because of all the hostility coming from the mainstream press and academics.

Renowned neurosurgeon Dr. Eben Alexander is one of the best examples of this.

His book, "Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon’s Journey into the Afterlife" has drawn a huge amount of cynicism.

The scientific fundamentalists scoff and attack Dr. Alexander and his book because a spirit world clash's with their own scientific fundamentalism.

Here are some notable points he makes:

• The experience of the afterlife was so "real" and expansive that the experience of living as a human on Earth seemed like an artificial dream by comparison.

• The fabric of the afterlife was pure LOVE. Love dominated the afterlife to such a huge degree that the overall presence of evil was infinitesimally small.

• In the afterlife, all communication was telepathic. There was no need for spoken words, nor even any separation between the self and everything else happening around you.

• The moment you asked a question in your mind, the answers were immediately apparent in breathtaking depth and detail. There was no "unknown" and the mere asking of a question was instantly accompanied by the appearance of its answers www.divinitynow.com...

Eben Alexander - My Journey into the Afterlife


Dr. Eben Alexander's Near-Death Experience Interview
www.youtube.com...

Cortical Near Death Experience
www.youtube.com...

Eben Alexander MD, director of research at The Monroe Institute
www.youtube.com...

INTERVIEWS
www.lifebeyonddeath.net...

reply to post by 0bserver1


The brain survives for about 6 minutes after the heart stops. I was a third of the way there. My friend was even closer than I. It definitely wasn't a case of "not waiting long enough," because any longer and one of us probably would not have made it back. And, judging by the majority of the NDE stories, not everyone experiences what we did, or for as long as we did, before they get their tunnels and warmth and light and loved ones.

Had I been religious, and taught to believe that there is a glorious life after this one, maybe my NDE might have made me appreciate this life more, knowing that there wasn't anything waiting at the threshold. But I was never raised to put my hopes and dreams in a flight of fancy which may, or may not, payout later. I was raised to value and experience every minute of life. So that is what I do.

And it's what I continue to do. Not because I "know" there's nothing after death, but because it doesn't matter. I would rather make the fullest of every opportunity at living, than waste one in hope of another.

~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by Murgatroid


I believe in NDE's, but when I saw the 700 club plaque in the background, I couldn't bare to watch the video. I get images of Tammy Faye and her husband every time I see the number 700. (getting shivers down my spine).

reply to post by DestroyDestroyDestroy


Right... because we all know that "drugs" affect every single person in *EXACTLY* the same way, all the time, with no variation. Thats just how "drugs" work!

If you knew *anything* about underscore underscore underscore, or even the topic you are trying to sound educated on, aside from mainstream nonsense propaganda, youd realize how utterly ridiculous your statement is.

Hell if you did any research on NDEs and the plethora of "impossible" knowledge that is gained from them, like some things mentioned in this thread, taking the stance of "its just drugs" wouldnt be possible without blatantly dismissing mountains of evidence because they didnt fit into your already established notion of what *should* be causing the phenomena.

NDE is not a figment, the problem with science is it seeks to become the supreme verifier of all in the universe, yet is systems for verifying all are flawed - thankfully they cover that up by claiming "it's the best system there is."

Personal experience cannot be replicated by one who is not the person, so science fails in this regard. Personal experiences from all over the world, throughout time no less, saying the same thing about NDE, or non-body experience, isn't a figment, unless the Royal Society is involved of course.

If you are one who looks to "science" to verify your existence you have failed to understand the point of human existence. The point of human existence is not to live by the notion that others must to validate your experience but to live each experience regardless of what some arbitrary expert says about your experience. I say this in reply to this post because most who have experienced the NDE or non-body experience will verify this - and they are not nutters for that perception.

reply to post by DestroyDestroyDestroy



Destroy, destroy destroy
this idea from your head:
NDE is not a hallucination.

NDE's, in my opinion, are like when you shut off an older television. They glow for a moment. Then fade to darkness...

reply to post by CaticusMaximus


Except that it is "just drugs." A chemical, to be more exact. I've done plenty of research into the effects of the substance which must not be named (btw ATS auto censors it, not me), and various trip reports indicate a very similar trip between users including tunnels, space elves, comprehension of a universal language, etc, all of which are very similar to NDE reports.

This, coupled with our belief that we trip on said unnamed substance during birth, death, and sleep (it causes dreams), suggests that NDEs truly are simply hallucinogenic experiences. There is a death phase, during this phase you are pumped full of Dimitry, and so you trip.

What you claim about hallucinogenic substances not having similar effects on different people is absolutely false; there are plenty of people who experience similar things attributed with certain substances. Take the great buffalo spirit associated with a certain cactus, or the ancestral spirit guide associated with a certain African plant root.

As much as I'd love to believe that life exists without heart, brain, or body, I'm not going to delude myself into doing so simply on faith alone. Now, is it more likely that people seeing, hearing, feeling, and overall experiencing a phenomenon, which is very akin to a hallucination, is attributed to a chemical or some magical hocus pocus fairytale BS?

We cannot possibly comprehend death, so I'm not going to waste my time trying. It'll come when it comes and we will all be enlightened as to whether anything comes after eventually. To claim anything more is to lie to oneself.

Originally posted by slugger9787
reply to post by DestroyDestroyDestroy

 

Destroy, destroy destroy
this idea from your head:
NDE is not a hallucination.

While we're speaking in absolutes, an NDE is a hallucination. If you have any actual evidence that it is not, please do share.

The only difference between and NDE and taking hallucinogenic drugs is that you are not aware you are tripping while having an NDE, making it seem more genuine. Couple this with people having an irrational fear of death and wanting desperately to believe that they won't simply unravel into nothingness and you have a very dangerous concoction for self delusion.

I have experienced NDE first hand.

The only differences were, a cold hazy void enveloped me as I floated back into my body in a different hospital.

No tunnel, warmth or light, lost friends or relatives.

I literally faded into a cold void and back into reality within 20 seconds.

But time had passed like 12 hours, it was the next day in the afternoon.

Originally posted by DestroyDestroyDestroy
Don't know if we can really discuss NDEs without violating ATS T&C's. The reason why people all have similar experiences during NDEs is that they are all tripping on the same hallucinogen, '___', which is flooded into the brain from the pineal gland during the death process.

Some food for thought, your brain stays active for a few minutes after your heart stops. A '___' trip usually lasts around 10 minutes.

Again, however, we cannot discuss the effects of mind altering drugs on ATS. A near death experience is simply a very powerful hallucination.

A hallucination is just like an "imagined experience" and the scientist proved that these are not imagined experiences.

And even so, a hallucination is...not really something that is fully understood. For all we know, entities exist in other dimansions and "halluconations" is when we see that world, and sometimes communicate with these entities. Maybe they are in their world chillin and then you pop in for a bit and they're like "did you see that ghist/alien/sasquatch?" And we think we are talking to them but really we are "talking" to its mind which is subconsciously talking back, unbeknownst to its owner...

I'm just saying... For you to come tromping on through here as if you understand perfectly the mysteries of the universe...well, its just rude, man! It's damn rude and condescending to the rest of us... Everyone has to act.like they "know stuff" or have "been places"... Know what I say to that? Pshhhhh whatever! You're just as lost as the rest of us...

One thing that interests me the most is blind people, born at birth blind. Did you know
even if they dream, THEY STILL DONT SEE NOTHING!! or color, All they feel is
sensations, reallly sad and i mean real sad . Only other thing I would be afraid of
is if blind people have ulterior motives. Something or someone behind the scenes pulling
the strings for $$$. No one really knows. Theres a lot of NDEs lately mostly
related to those religious youtube channels .

reply to post by 0bserver1


Thank you for your kind words, well I have got so frightened of roads I have never drove since crash, a bloke who had been drinking all day at a wedding hit my car when he failed to stop and hit my side door. But the NDE has stayed with me as clear now as it was then, really odd I felt warm, safe, secure then voice sent me back into my body again, almost as if I was floating any place I wanted to go.