Who receives God's Grace? To law or not to law?

reply to post by jmdewey60


Ok, then what do I say that is against Christ? Because you still don't except what I am saying.

reply to post by sacgamer25

Ok, then what do I say that is against Christ? Because you still don't except what I am saying.

Maybe I am paranoid, like you said.
I was brought up in a religion that said that 99% of professing Christians are not going to make it to heaven.
Not ninety nine percent of people, but out of people who call themselves Christian and believe that they are somehow "saved".
This is what the church I belonged to believed, at the time back when I was young and impressionable.
Nowadays, it may be that it is more 'liberal' and think even some Catholics might get into heaven.
The reason that people who think they will be saved will be lost is simply that they think they are somehow already saved.
I'm not saying I necessarily subscribe to that myself, right now, but that I was kind of forced into accepting it when that was all that I knew on the subject, probably had an effect on my current behavior.
Anyway, whatever it is inside my head that says, "Danger! Danger!" does not allow me to just sit happily by while there are people pretending to be prophets leading people off like sheep to the wolves.

reply to post by jmdewey60

It has to do with inheritance of the Old Testament promises through Jesus as the key inheritor. We enter into a special relationship with Jesus to become fellow heirs that removes the necessity of having some sort of particular heredity. We become a sort of universal recipient where we can stop worrying about the standard workaround, which is to convert to Judaism, to become part of the group who imagines themselves as the sole heirs.
We don't all of a sudden have as our name and character, Christ. We are like children who are adopted in and so have a part, deserving, or not, with whatever it is that is supposed to be this great and wonderful future thing that everyone desires.

Children who are adopted do nothing to deserve the adoption. Inheritance is what we receive when we are born again into new life from the last. We must be born again. Like I said, all of this hinges on realizing what baptism signifies. I agree with what you are saying here. Galatians 3 makes it clear there is no distinction between race or creed. There is one law beyond 'the' law of Judaism. All of it is summed up with love and what Confucius described as the Doctrine of the Mean. This is the way and path of all Eastern tradition. Judaism is an Eastern view of the law. If you examine the Dhammapada, the writings of Confucius or any most other Eastern texts, you will find the same principles outlined. The great and wonderful thing in the future you describe is the world to come. Right now, for 1000 years more, we are here waiting on our salvation from this experience. Love must be learned first.

You are talking about believing. That is not what the point is that Paul making. We already believe or we wouldn't have been baptized in the first place.

According to Paul, the righteous and wicked would be baptized together before the day of the Lord:

Acts 24

15 and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16 So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.

Christ raised ALL the dead and cleared out the lower realm. This is the sign of Jonah and 3 days in the belly of the whale. After 2 days, Jonah prayed to be released.

Enoch said the same thing:

1.1 These are the words of the blessing of Enoch; according to which he
blessed the chosen and righteous who must be present on the day of
distress, which is appointed, for the removal of all the wicked and impious.
1.2 And Enoch began his story and said: -

The wicked and righteous must be together before the coming wrath. Then, in Isaiah, we are given the progression of events.

Isaiah 26

19 But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

What Paul means is his term Faith, as a way of life, the thing that in Christianity takes the role that Law had in the old material Israel. That is the new covenant spiritual "law".
As a sort of law, Faith is something we do ourselves in that we have to deal with problems every day and make choices about doing what is right, or doing what is wrong. We do it, though with spiritual guidance that is the major component of Faith. There is a spirit working inside us to make us better but that is how it works, incrementally, with every single choice and every action. We don't lie back and have good thoughts about how much we love, and God magically makes us better people with no effort on our parts.

We have a part, but the mechanisms are provided by God. The trials are provided by God. The entire story of the WORD is the story the Logos tells from Creation. We ride this story to it's conclusion. We are saying the same thing here. God is responsible for this story that leads to our ultimate salvation from the faith HE develops in and through us.

Jesus is saying that he is the one people are to come to as God's sole agent. If they do come, or if they even go away, it is God's will, and not that there is somehow something wrong with Jesus.
The "preparation" was his death and resurrection and ascension to Heaven. People were not prepared and it had to be accepted after the fact, once their preconceived ideas of the Messiah had been done away with as something they could still hold out hope for.

Heaven as always "The Heavens." Our inheritance is listed in Deuteronomy 4:19 -

reply to post by EnochWasRight

Children who are adopted do nothing to deserve the adoption.

It is not that sort of adoption that Paul is using as an analogy, like adopting newborns. Back in Roman times someone might adopt someone as their son in order to their heir, for example if they did not have a natural son to inherit. That person would adopt not someone at random, or a baby, but someone full grown who exhibited attribute that made him seem worth of taking their name and estate.

Inheritance is what we receive when we are born again into new life from the last. We must be born again.

A pledge is what baptism represents, not the actual reborn experience in the promised kingdom.
Seriously, think about it, what was Paul going to all that trouble to explain in Galatians 3, if it meant just this same old life with the same miserable conditions? He meant some fabulous good thing that people were expecting with a certain degree of longing, bringing a very dramatic sort of change.

Judaism is an Eastern view of the law.

The Hellenistic Judaism of the times of the writings of the New Testament were not "eastern" in the way that you mean, and was very western, closely connected to the world of the Diaspora among the Greek speaking people, including most of the Jews living in it.

According to Paul, the righteous and wicked would be baptized together before the day of the Lord:

Not unless "baptism" somehow all of a sudden has a whole new meaning.

Christ raised ALL the dead and cleared out the lower realm.

No, unless you just rewrote the Bible.

Enoch said . . .

Enoch is not a book of the Bible so holds no authority to me.

. . . in Isaiah, we are given the progression of events.

It is making an analogy which can not be construed to mean baptism. It is likening the rebirth of Israel after the Babylonian destruction, to the dew germinating crop seeds in the field. The destruction is the pay-back for what happened to Israel, to be visited upon Babylon, which did happen by the hand of the Persians.

. . . our ultimate salvation from the faith HE develops in and through us.

There is one place in the Bible that talks about faith growing, and that is in 2 Corinthians 10:15 where Paul says he hopes their faith grows, but he is talking about all the people in Corinth who are believers, and could mean the community growing, or the entire community growing in a communal sense somehow, but not as in a individual way.
People believe or they don't, which fits the definition of the word. Faith as a Pauline Christian term is the principle that we live by, and that is given to the community by God as our way of justification, the roadmap of righteousness.

Our inheritance is listed in Deuteronomy 4:19 -

The promises were made better.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Being born again is something that in this life is always in the future, though baptism, among other things, does serve to symbolize a sort of metaphorical rebirth into the kingdom, as if we were naturally born people in that territory of God's Kingdom.
But the real rebirth has to wait until the resurrection. If we go around saying we are born again, then we are kind of deluding ourselves into thinking that God is already done with us and are now perfect.

The resurrection started with Christ rising from the dead. He was the first born over all creation and the first born after his death on the cross. He is the first and last Adam. The Church is his body and he is the Head in Heaven with God. The risen Christ is the church. On his death, the 3 days to raise the temple is 3000 years to follow until the end of the last 1000 years. We are at the tipping point between 2000 and 3000.

Supporting verses.

1 Corinthians 10

17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

As I have shown earlier, the heel of the loaf is Adam on either side. Christ is both one with the Father God and IS Adam, the father of mankind. Luke 3 gives the progression. Read the very end of the genealogy. The Son of God (LORD) creates Adam, which leads to the last Adam in Christ. Christ is the first risen from the dead.

1 Corinthians 1:18

And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

1 Corinthians 15

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.

---Baptism is necessary to follow the same path as Christ through the wilderness to the promised land.

1 Corinthians 15 again shows the progression of events:

22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Right now, the dominion, domination, authority and power of Satan has not been crushed. The heel of the loaf (Adam) does this before, during and after the Day of the Lord. Salvation comes when Christ comes as the temple is fully raised over 3000 years.

Paul is saying that we should love God, and it is not important that we know god perfectly now, because if we love God, then God knows us, and that being the case, even if we die this death from our current material being, God will bring us back, and then we will know everything we will ever need to know about God.
Paul was arguing about ideas people had about their wonderful personal religious experiences by saying all that is worthless if you don't love God.
You seem to be going in another direction by saying that you can have these little revelations on the nature of God, or be God, I guess.

We are the body of Christ. We are taught by the Holy Spirit now. When Christ brings salvation, we inherit this same spirit forever. Each member of the body has a purpose. Have you read 1 Corinthians 10 - 15?

I wanted to make a note on the book I earlier recommended on Paul and the spirit, and to basically take that back. I've been rereading it today and yesterday and since I originally read it a year and a half ago, I have changed a lot of my ideas on apocalypticism, which I now think the author too readily goes to in order to solve difficult passages in Paul. I now think those, rather than talking about a last day event, really meant the demise of the old system on earth of worshipping God, and its being replaced by Christianity.
The sort of zealousness that Paul admits to in his earlier days was, when he was writing, still all too real, but being carried out by other individuals and which he suffered from literally in a bodily way, which I believe explains some of what Paul says, but too easily gets explained by the author of this book I am discussing, as having to do with Paul wanting to go to heaven or something.
I would still recommend it but to people who have already read the books that this book uses as reference material, and can take away some useful thoughts from the book but to be able to ignore quite a bit, stuff that did not raise objections with me in the past, but now does.

Originally posted by bb23108

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by bb23108

 

Yes but Jesus also said to fully live the commandments of love and that salvation was being reborn to here from above - in this life!

Paul says all that too, but you may not be seeing it through all the clutter spread by the "Free Grace" cults.
I'm re-reading the book that I mentioned earlier to see if I can give some better specific examples of Paul's teaching on the rebirth experience.
That is where the "material spirit" comes from in the title, the spirit that indwells us and changes us in this material existence, right now.

edit on 20-4-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Yes that would be most interesting if you find passages that speak in terms of being reborn to here from above said by Paul - i.e., that speak of the process of real communion or union with God in this life. Such is the real process of receiving God's Grace.

Paul is more concerned with sin and being made alive again through a process of faith rather than an actual in life process of fully surrendering the whole body-mind in love of God, as Jesus' first commandment clearly calls for and is the profound and necessary basis for preparing the body-mind to receive and commune with God in this life.

Thanks for your input!

By the way, those cults you often speak of are easy enough to filter out of real discriminative consideration, so no worries there.

Did you find anything yet where Paul clearly speaks in terms of salvation as being reborn to here from above - in this life?

I started to check into that book you mentioned (prior to any purchasing of it) and found one of its main themes from the Amazon summary:

"Engberg-Pedersen shows that Paul's cosmology, not least his understanding of the pneuma, was a materialist, bodily one: the pneuma was a physical element that would at the resurrection act directly on the ordinary human bodies of believers and transform them into 'pneumatic bodies'. This literal understanding of the future events is then traced back to the Pauline present as Engberg-Pedersen considers how Paul conceived in bodily terms of a range of central themes like his own conversion, his mission, the believers' reception of the pneuma in baptism, and the way the apostle took the pneuma to inform his own and their ways of life from the beginning to the projected end. "

I can understand why such matters can find support in Paul's writings given his own mystical experience - but even so, this approach still sounds like the real transformation comes during one's resurrection at the passing of the body-mind. If so, this is still very different from what Jesus taught - he taught real transformation of the body-mind in life, through first by living the commandments of love to the point the body-mind is properly prepared for spirit reception - and then, being "born to here from above" - again, in this life.

In other words, one's resurrection beyond the limits of the mortal physical body-mind is best fully understood and lived before death as Jesus taught, rather than during or after death as Paul seems to promise to believers.

It is interesting that the book delves into the process of baptism and what that may have meant to Paul and anyone so baptized. To what extent did (do) such believers actually become bodily and spiritually transformed in life? What were (are) the signs of pneuma actually transforming such a one in daily life?

It is also of interest to me if the believers understood the commandments of love as the body-mind's necessary preparation for real spiritual transformation in this life.

Pneuma or spirit or "breath-energy" is also a means for esoteric prayer in which the individual breathes the Spirit of God and is even potentially absorbed by God into a mystical ascent beyond the physical body-mind - i.e., being born to here from above, even daily. This process of ascension is what Jesus taught, but I do not see this in Paul's writings.

I look forward to your further thoughts and findings, and thanks for the book reference.

reply to post by bb23108

. . . the pneuma was a physical element . . .

In that it is something that certain things are made of, such as the sun and the stars, according to Stoicism and Neoplatonism when Paul was writing.
It is admitted by the author that Paul was not a Stoic, and that is his (Engberg-Pedersen) main background, the study of Aristotle's works.
But he assumes that Paul would have been influenced by current philosophical thought, so the book is basically an exercise in finding out how different of an interpretation of Paul can be made by using Stoic definitions for the words Paul uses.
I think I found most interesting when I read it originally, how it goes into Paul's discussion of the spirit, regardless of what sort of conclusions it ends up with.

Did you find anything yet where Paul clearly speaks in terms of salvation as being reborn to here from above - in this life?

I don't know what you mean by "being reborn to here from above".
My view on salvation is that it is the existence of the church, and you being in it.
I don't see the word being used in the New Testament to describe pop-culture religion's definition of salvation as going to heaven.
All Christians are "saved" according to the NT, in my view, by hearing the calling of God and becoming a member of the church, while your ultimate fate awaits the judgment sometime after your death. With my conclusion that the popular notion today of what salvation is, does not happen in this lifetime. While the NT version of salvation does happen in this lifetime, but the definition of it has virtually been lost in the current collective psyche of the world.

In other words, one's resurrection beyond the limits of the mortal physical body-mind is best fully understood and lived before death as Jesus taught, rather than during or after death as Paul seems to promise to believers.

I don't think that Jesus taught that. He was saying that you will not die because he has been given the power to resurrect people and that he can raise people whenever he wants to and does not have to wait to some hypothetical end of time to do it.
I don't think that he meant that you are resurrected now before you die.

. . . absorbed by God into a mystical ascent beyond the physical body-mind . . .

I am not aware of anything like that being taught in the NT.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

The resurrection started with Christ rising from the dead.

That would be ignoring Moses and the example you gave yesterday of the boy raised by Elijah.

He was the first born over all creation and the first born after his death on the cross.

It does not say in the Greek that he was the first born, but is using a compound word made up of words if looked at separately, would mean, first born, but takes on another connotation beyond the literal that existed in some hypothetical world before the actual word being used in the New Testament was coined.
So I am referring to the same fallacy that I was earlier talking about in regards to the Greek words for sin and repentance, which are also very old Greek compound words.
In this case, it means "the preeminent".

He is the first and last Adam.

I don't know where you get that from. Paul says that the first Adam cam from the earth but Jesus from heaven. He goes on to call Jesus the second man. I think that you are maybe going into Gnostic beliefs here rather than Christian.

The risen Christ is the church.

Another unsupported leap of logic. Christ is the risen Jesus.

On his death, the 3 days to raise the temple is 3000 years to follow until the end of the last 1000 years.

More of your use of non biblical writings as authority.

As I have shown earlier, the heel of the loaf is Adam on either side.

The greek word means food, bread or loaf, so your argument does not hold up. In the context, you would have to imagine the whole congregation of Corinth sharing a single loaf which of course was not the case.

Christ is both one with the Father God and IS Adam, the father of mankind.

Jesus is one with the Father in a metaphorical sense, and this 'Adam' business is not a Christian concept but from a rival religion to it. Jesus represents a kind of anti-Adam, not Adam.

---Baptism is necessary to follow the same path as Christ through the wilderness to the promised land.

The writer of Hebrews draws a comparison between Christians being baptized and the Israelites crossing the Red Sea, the point you are making seems to be a product of your imagination.

Right now, the dominion, domination, authority and power of Satan has not been crushed.

You can't get that from the passage that you quoted since there is no illusion to Satan in it but what looks like human institutions. Jesus rules, not Satan, that's the point of Paul.

The heel of the loaf (Adam) does this before, during and after the Day of the Lord. Salvation comes when Christ comes as the temple is fully raised over 3000 years.

Again, relying on non biblical sources for your philosophy.

We are the body of Christ. We are taught by the Holy Spirit now. When Christ brings salvation, we inherit this same spirit forever. Each member of the body has a purpose. Have you read 1 Corinthians 10 - 15?

We are not the same like-giving spirit that Christ is, though we can be the recipients of that life. We have salvation now in Christ, and do not need to wait for some future world event.
Those chapters are the topic of discussion in the book I was talking with BB about, including the passages you quoted above, so I am aware of them, along with the problems involved with interpreting them.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

Ok, then what do I say that is against Christ? Because you still don't except what I am saying.

Maybe I am paranoid, like you said.
I was brought up in a religion that said that 99% of professing Christians are not going to make it to heaven.
Not ninety nine percent of people, but out of people who call themselves Christian and believe that they are somehow "saved".
This is what the church I belonged to believed, at the time back when I was young and impressionable.
Nowadays, it may be that it is more 'liberal' and think even some Catholics might get into heaven.
The reason that people who think they will be saved will be lost is simply that they think they are somehow already saved.
I'm not saying I necessarily subscribe to that myself, right now, but that I was kind of forced into accepting it when that was all that I knew on the subject, probably had an effect on my current behavior.
Anyway, whatever it is inside my head that says, "Danger! Danger!" does not allow me to just sit happily by while there are people pretending to be prophets leading people off like sheep to the wolves.

Before you read this I will make you a promise. I am a man who has been changed in this life through the baptism of the Holy Spirit. My children also have recieved this gift. Dewey I think the Holy Spirit is all around you and in you but you have not yet believed in its power. The best way that I can explain it is the Holy Spirit wants to live with you and through you. Meaning the Holy Spirit wants to teach you about all things that are against love so you can learn to love perfectly. We may never be able to love perfectly but the Holy Spirit will teach us how. The Holy Spirit litteraly cuts away the flesh from the spirit so you can overcome the flesh by the power of the Spirit of Christ.


It is always possible we are both right. This is the hardest lesson you will ever need to try to grasp. If we are both teaching that the message of Christ is that we must love one another actively to receive the gift of the spirit than we both teach the message of Christ.

My understanding that God loves everyone and not just believers eliminates religion. If you start talking about rules that are not for or against love then you are talking about religion.

Think about Christ sacrifice, it was to promise that God does love everyone unconditionally; the promise is made perfect through the resurrection.

When I read a post I ask myself what is the poster trying to say? I put myself in their shoes. If nothing that they say is against love, then I simply share my testimony to support what they believe and encourage them to continue to seek love. Anyone who is actively pursuing love is pro Christ since that is the ONLY command he gave. He did not say that one has to do anything except love.

There is a key in the following verse.

1 Timothy 4:6 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

You see at the end of life all men will be resurrected, for the final day of judgment. I don't really understand the concepts of what happens after our physical perishes but the bible makes it sound like something very loving. And notice the verse says savior of ALL people especially of those who believe.

What benefit is there to believing if all are saved? Still much because it is only the ones who believe who can receive the life changing baptism of the Holy Spirit. It is only true believers who can teach. Each of us has a purpose, one sows the seed, one waters the seed, God causes the seed to grow until harvest time. It is a process for some it takes a while. Why God uses calls some to teach and causes others to learn through the one's he calls is a mystery but that is our purpose.

Understand that a man is to be changed in this life and not be sitting around sinning waiting for death. Believe God is love and this becomes almost sad and humorous.

Christians, Muslims, Jews, most world religions believe in "original sin", or something that keeps us from being perfected. And the ones that believe in some sort of heaven on earth seem to think only a few can find it. They are awaiting salvation upon physical death. You realize if God truly loves all men they will be saved in exactly the manor they believe, after physical death.

The bible clearly states that anyone who is in sin will not enter the kingdom of heaven. They cannot be born again because they believe in original sin. They cannot be made free from their sin because their faith prevents them.

Dewey trust that God is love and these people do need you. Believe Christ wants you to born again in this life, if I could place my hand on you and pray I would, because your words enspire me so I know you love Christ.

Why should anyone wait for death to find the truth when they can find the truth today, and all they have to do is believe they can be what they have always wanted since infancy? They want to love and be loved, but they simply can't because they can't stop sinning. We have to show them the way out.

You see how our message says the same things when you eliminate the religion and keep the message on Christ, purse love and you will find it. Christ and science agree on this one so people should be able to accept this. If they can't accept that they can love, you know the father has decided they are not ready. They remain in their sin. This is why we don't have to judge, because we can trust the Father. Maybe they will be ready next time, only the father knows the day or hour.

If you have not alreay, I pray your life be changed forever and that you recieve the baptism of Christ, the baptism of the Holy Spirit. In the name of Jesus Christ son of the living God, the author of our slation. Amen

Originally posted by jmdewey60
I don't think that Jesus taught that. He was saying that you will not die because he has been given the power to resurrect people and that he can raise people whenever he wants to and does not have to wait to some hypothetical end of time to do it.
I don't think that he meant that you are resurrected now before you die.

. . . absorbed by God into a mystical ascent beyond the physical body-mind . . .

I am not aware of anything like that being taught in the NT.

Here are some quotes that should help with this consideration:

John 3
New International Version (NIV)

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[d]

Jesus appeared as spiritual master able to transmit the Spirit Light of the Divine to his closest followers. That he was their spiritual master is clearly indicated in the Bible.

The disciples communed with God through Jesus' transmission of the Divine Spirit Light above which Jesus was One with. Jesus' confession that he and the Father are one, is the confession of his profound sacrifice of self into God - no separation. So he testifies that He is One with God.

Jesus also confessed that his great mission was to awaken others to this same Truth that communion with the Divine Spirit Light of God is freedom, non-separation, real Love.

John 17:20-26
New International Version (NIV)

20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you[a] known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

Jesus walked the earth as Spiritual Master, not as some separate God-Person that was going to magically cure everyone's problems, or physically resurrect believers, but through Blessing true aspirants with a profound understanding of their fundamental non-separation from God. Jesus did this via initiating them into esoteric practices regarding the Pneuma or Spirit Breath and Light in order to awaken them to communion with the Divine Spirit of God Above. This awakening, granted through the disciples' spiritual ascension beyond the limits of the physical body-mind, was the disciples' rebirth - or being born to here from above.

Thus Jesus resurrected them from the darkness of sin (and their being only mortally earth-bound) to the Divine Light Above and the immortality that transcends the physical body-mind. This is Jesus' great gift of resurrecting such followers - through ascension to God Above they are born to here from above or born again.

Such was Jesus' authority and mastery over the conditional realms of earth and heaven, and his message is most fundamentally an esoteric message relative to God as the Divine Light above, and how to rightly prepare the body-mind for this reception of his Blessing Light through fully loving God and neighbor.

Only through true repentance of one's non-separation from God, is this communion possible.

reply to post by sacgamer25

If we are both teaching that the message of Christ is that we must love one another actively to receive the gift of the spirit than we both teach the message of Christ.

You are, maybe.
I don't know if I am 'teaching' anything.
I have opinions on things and I do have one on spiritual gifts, that love is one of them. I don't think we are given the spirit as a reward for loving, or even for 'pursuing' love, whatever that means.
The spirit is not an end in itself, as if what we do is for that acquisition, as if it was a kind of drug or something.
Spirit is a force of life. With our natural spirit we live a certain way. With God's spirit, we live in a better way.

1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

The Timothy letters are "Paul-like" books made to look like actual letters by the famous Apostle, Paul.
The write would have been looking at various source materials that were already traditional in order to lend an air of authenticity to them. Among those would have been an accepted statement by Jesus that he had come to save the world.

They want to love and be loved, but they simply can't because they can't stop sinning.

Not everyone is like that. There is always a certain percentage of people who want everything just for themselves and care nothing about anyone else. Those are sociopaths or psychopaths and lack a capacity for love. Those people seriously need a change in spirit before the world can be a better place. God can do that where we can't, but those individuals need to come to God to receive that gift. I don't think they would be motivated to do that if they are already getting the message that suits their personality that they already have, that God somehow accepts them the way they are. He will accept them approaching in a remorseful spirit wanting to be changed, but not accepted in their sociopathic state to live amongst the saved in a future world.

reply to post by bb23108

Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.

Jesus is talking about something he is here calling the kingdom, that represents some future ideal state and that there is a judgment that happens first before entering into whatever it is, where what it is exactly is not that important to know the details of, as much as the idea of how it is determined if one goes in or not.
Here Jesus is describing the judgment as being forced onto the world by his very appearance where people accept his way or not.

The disciples communed with God through Jesus' transmission of the Divine Spirit Light above which Jesus was One with.

They had spiritual truths told to them by Jesus who was acquainted with them because of his own intimate relationship with God. Jesus had an intimate relationship with his disciples who he called his friends.

Jesus' confession that he and the Father are one, is the confession of his profound sacrifice of self into God - no separation. So he testifies that He is One with God.

I think it would be closer to the opposite of what you just said, based on what Jesus said himself. Jesus said that he came out of God, so his sacrifice was being not a god as he had every right to be, but a man, in order to tell people directly as possible the mind of God.

20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Jesus was obviously following a course of action that was not beneficial to him if he was there to get what the world had to offer. His disciples would have also obviously been following the same course with their persecution, hardship and martyrdom. Those who learned the way from them need to carry on that tradition so eventually everyone in the world will be able to see that sort of life as an example.

Jesus did this via initiating them into esoteric practices regarding the Pneuma or Spirit Breath and Light in order to awaken them to communion with the Divine Spirit of God Above.

How could you possibly know that?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Jesus is talking about something he is here calling the kingdom, that represents some future ideal state and that there is a judgment that happens first before entering into whatever it is, where what it is exactly is not that important to know the details of, as much as the idea of how it is determined if one goes in or not.

How you are interpreting this quote is exactly what the exoteric socially-oriented institution of Christianity, especially as Paul espoused, wanted. The esoteric tradition of actual, in life, communion with God was methodically snuffed out because it would never become big-time religion, which is what Paul and ultimately the Romans wanted. Ironically enough, it is Jesus' original esoteric way of absorption in the Light of God Above, along with the practice of his exoteric commandments of love, which could stop Christianity from its current decline.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
They had spiritual truths told to them by Jesus who was acquainted with them because of his own intimate relationship with God. Jesus had an intimate relationship with his disciples who he called his friends.

Exactly - and Jesus initiated them via the ancient tradition of Spirit transmission that spiritual masters have done with their closest disciples even long before Jesus' appearance.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
I think it would be closer to the opposite of what you just said, based on what Jesus said himself. Jesus said that he came out of God, so his sacrifice was being not a god as he had every right to be, but a man, in order to tell people directly as possible the mind of God.

Jesus has clearly said that he and the Father are One. But yes, he needed to become man in order to know man's ways and struggles directly, and to teach those that truly recognized him as God, real communion with the Divine Person beyond man's worldly ways.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
How could you possibly know that?

One of the most telling quotes is this one:

The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light (Matt 6:22)

Jesus taught the way of divine communion with the Spirit Light of God Above. Such communion involved initiation, through Jesus's transmission of the Holy Spirit, of his disciples - which allowed them to release their persistent hold on the physical body-mind. Through such initiation and their practice of the commandments of love, the disciples were, to whatever degree they allowed, absorbed in the Light of God Above.

This is a very well documented tradition of spiritual absorption that is readily found in various eastern practices associated with the single eye ("third" eye), and also in western Christian mysticism. The single eye is the "portal" to the Light of God Above and with such "seeing", the whole body is bathed in God's Light - i.e., the body-mind is born to here from above.

St. Seraphim of Sarov is a wonderful example of this, and also having other monks become absorbed in the Divine by the sheer force and transmission of his own surrender to God. There are also many accounts of various Christians who confessed mystical union with Christ Above - in this life.

Of course, none of this is what the exoteric institution of Christianity, both then and now, wanted to authenticate - for one the preparatory practices of the two commandments of love are not going to bode well with most people. Paul knew this, and so created the believer's approach to some kind of perfect union after they died - as long as they merited it by being good enough. The Romans could work with this approach, but certainly wanted nothing to do with ecstatic mystics speaking of releasing all things worldly to God Above in this life.

reply to post by bb23108


Well, you have thoroughly stepped out of the realm of Christian thought according to the Bible, and don't especially feel inclined to discuss other religions.
People who follow other religions like to quote the Bible for whatever reason and I recognize that, and tend to just let it go while I have more pressing things, like actual New Testament theology, to deal with.
Even the other poster on this thread, Enoch was right, I don't consider a Christian and normally don't discuss anything with him because he does the same thing, quoting scripture from the NT for whatever reason to support whatever religion he created for himself.
I think everyone should make their own religion, as far as I am concerned, but most do not interest me.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by bb23108

 

Well, you have thoroughly stepped out of the realm of Christian thought according to the Bible...

Making a general statement like this is pretty useless especially since what I have said has been founded in quotes from the Bible. You are sounding like you are set on what you think the Bible says in terms of Christian exoteric beliefs and its social morality, and don't want to discuss matters that also exist in the Bible as esoteric teachings.

Don't you think that Jesus would also work internal spiritual miracles with his disciples - and not just some external miracles? Jesus was not just interested in merely exoteric, moralistic, and socially-correct rules and more beliefs in some future re-union with God - but in real transformation of the body-mind turned fully to God in this life. This is very obvious when one understands something about esotericism and his teachings of spiritual ascent, absorption in God Above, etc.

I can respect your wishes to not discuss this since this is your choice, but also want to say that this is not very open of you. But so be it. We won't waste each others time any further.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Another unsupported leap of logic. Christ is the risen Jesus.

Colossians 1

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church;

Christ is the head of the body.

1 Corinthians 12

Unity and Diversity in the Body

12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by[c] one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.

15 Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

reply to post by bb23108

Making a general statement like this is pretty useless . . .

Its either that, or just not responding, and I think that may be a bit disrespectful since you did go to the trouble to answer my question.
That answer is not something that I have the ability to respond to, period, end of story because it is not based on the Bible.

. . . also exist in the Bible as esoteric teachings . . .

That is your conclusion, and not one that I share.
Now that doesn't mean that there are not things in there that we don't understand, because I think there is a lot of things like that in the Bible.
But it would be alluding to something maybe, and doesn't actually teach it.
What I am concerned with is not proof text theology but what it actually teaches.

Don't you think that Jesus would also work internal spiritual miracles with his disciples

That's just speculation. But, no, I don't think so. I don't see the New Testament as a physical thing, like an object that recorded events, like a video camera or something. Everything was written in it for a purpose that had to do with a theology. We may not be able to figure out today what the purpose of each thing was because we are far removed from the events when it was written, but there are, and they are very ordinary kinds of things, meaning that there is no secret code built into it because if there was, it would have been noticed right away.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by bb23108

 

Well, you have thoroughly stepped out of the realm of Christian thought according to the Bible, and don't especially feel inclined to discuss other religions.
People who follow other religions like to quote the Bible for whatever reason and I recognize that, and tend to just let it go while I have more pressing things, like actual New Testament theology, to deal with.
Even the other poster on this thread, Enoch was right, I don't consider a Christian and normally don't discuss anything with him because he does the same thing, quoting scripture from the NT for whatever reason to support whatever religion he created for himself.
I think everyone should make their own religion, as far as I am concerned, but most do not interest me.

Dewey, you really need to stop worrying about what is said that is not against Christ. It doesn't matter exactly how one views Christ, what matters is that we all follow his teaching. Why does it matter if one sees the Christ as mystical and another understands him through worldly knowledge? As long as all understand and all obey we need no religion. However a man comes to understand that in order to find love one must do what is loving, which is to obey Christ and love one another they will be saved. We are judged on what we do not what we say we believe.

When you tell a man that his way is wrong when he has said nothing against Christ, how is that loving? The debate should be celebrated, the bible allows many possibilities. We should love to debate religion but we should never put anything as a stumbling block to love.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I will leave you with this. The concept that you hold onto that prevents you from seeing what I see is Grace. Maybe you need to see the Grace you do, if that is the case let me not try to change your view.

It is my understanding that Grace is God's unconditional love. The spirit of the father is the spirit of life. The spirit of life is alive in all things living. Babtism of the Holy Spirit is the reward for the one that believes in Chrit messgage. The father knows the heart. Until one is fully committed to love and is actively loving others the way Christ did, they will not recieve the Spirit of love that is Christ.

The Holy Spirit and Christ are one. The spirit of love. The father is in all, the son resides only in his disciples. The father and the son are both love. The father loves you, the son teaches you how to love. You can never escape the love of the father but you can refuse to accept the spirit of the teacher, the Christ. If you want the spirit of Chirst, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of love, you must obey. You were born so you know the father is in you and loves you.

God loves you unconditionally, but you only feal the spirit of love, the Holy Spirit, when you pursue love. This is both mystical and physical. Science agrees with our spirit.