Who receives God's Grace? To law or not to law?

reply to post by Itisnowagain

Is there more than one 'presence'?
What definitions do the bible have for 'presence' or 'ever present'?

Several meanings for grace.
enistémi
That would be "present" in the New Testament, in Greek.
Meaning near at hand, while if you mean the present time, it looks like they would use, Kronos.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

Is there more than one 'presence'?
What definitions do the bible have for 'presence' or 'ever present'?

Several meanings for grace.
enistémi
That would be "present" in the New Testament, in Greek.
Meaning near at hand, while if you mean the present time, it looks like they would use, Kronos.

Present is now - it is never not the present. Have you ever known a time when it is not the present 'time'?
Nothing can appear outside of presence.

The image made of light is appearing presently - can you see it?
All seeing - all knowing - ever present.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

Oh so it is all about 'you' and what God can do for 'you'.

I think so.
Even if you were praying for someone else, it would usually be someone you care about where you would be personally affected if something was to happen bad to them.
You can also do the Christian thing and pray for your enemies but you would want for them to become better people and be less likely to cause you harm in the future.
Even me, where my belief is in making the universe better, that is somewhere that I want to live in myself as much as possible, now and at some future point. I think the universe exists for the purpose of having this tiny bit of territory that you call yourself, the "me".
Something that is worth it, all the trouble making a universe, and all the nuisances involved in living in it, otherwise we should all be just this collective of minds without substance just there but being nowhere.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

Oh so it is all about 'you' and what God can do for 'you'.

I think so.
Even if you were praying for someone else, it would usually be someone you care about where you would be personally affected if something was to happen bad to them.
You can also do the Christian thing and pray for your enemies but you would want for them to become better people and be less likely to cause you harm in the future.
Even me, where my belief is in making the universe better, that is somewhere that I want to live in myself as much as possible, now and at some future point. I think the universe exists for the purpose of having this tiny bit of territory that you call yourself, the "me".
Something that is worth it, all the trouble making a universe, and all the nuisances involved in living in it, otherwise we should all be just this collective of minds without substance just there but being nowhere.

edit on 20-4-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

This moment of presence is ALL there is. What is happening presently is DONE.
No one is doing it and no one can be harmed. The image that is seen will continue to appear differently forever and what is seeing it will never go anywhere because it has always been.

God said let there be light - can you see the light that is appearing presently?
The light goes on and off - in deep sleep there is no light and in the waking state the light is appearing.
No one can save 'you'. You will only be saved when you realize there is no 'you' - there is ONLY GOD.

reply to post by jmdewey60


The glory of god is the pure light that is appearing presently prior to words being placed upon it - the pure light is prior to conception - it is the immaculate conception - Christ - it has not been conditioned or shaped by words so it is unconditioned (love).
The use of words abstract reality and turn it into something that appears to be divided. But this moment of presence has no name or label because it is a flowing living thing.

Chapter one of the Tao Te Ching translated by Stephen Michell.

The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.

Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

If God's grace isn't given freely then it's not "grace".

Likely why Jesus didn't use the word...

It was never meant to be used in that way...

Grace is an ease of doing things... Jesus was graceful in his responses, and in dealing with people... like when John describes him as being "full of grace and truth"

No, grace being defined as an "ease of doing things" is just one of several connotation s for the word grace. In terms of theology proper it means something else entirely. I means "something freely bestowed upon man by deity".

"a. Divine love and protection bestowed freely on people."


Online Dictionary

You mean Christian online dictionary/theology... of course

1. Seemingly effortless beauty or charm of movement, form, or proportion.
2. A characteristic or quality pleasing for its charm or refinement.
3. A sense of fitness or propriety.
4.
a. A disposition to be generous or helpful; goodwill.
b. Mercy; clemency.
5. A favor rendered by one who need not do so; indulgence.
6. A temporary immunity or exemption; a reprieve.

www.thefreedictionary.com...

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by bb23108

 

But at the cost of having to significantly revise Jesus' original message of taking full responsibility for one's life and spiritual practice to the relatively easy believers approach with salvation in the end - guaranteed!

"Sell all your possessions", that would be the not so easy approach?
Jesus said 'if you believe in me then you will not die', how much easier can it get?

Yes but Jesus also said to fully live the commandments of love and that salvation was being reborn to here from above - in this life!

reply to post by jmdewey60

Thanks for your thoughts about sin in reference to those links - though it still appears that sin can be defined as missing the mark in its most fundamental meaning - I.e., putting any thing, self, or other before God.

reply to post by bb23108

Yes but Jesus also said to fully live the commandments of love and that salvation was being reborn to here from above - in this life!

Paul says all that too, but you may not be seeing it through all the clutter spread by the "Free Grace" cults.
I'm re-reading the book that I mentioned earlier to see if I can give some better specific examples of Paul's teaching on the rebirth experience.
That is where the "material spirit" comes from in the title, the spirit that indwells us and changes us in this material existence, right now.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

God's Grace is ever present . . .

Right, and that is something I haven't gotten into on this thread, the multiple uses for that word in the New Testament.
For example, the child Jesus was full of grace. Oh, was he handing things out to people, or was he a person with positive personal attributes in general?
It could mean a lot of things but always good things.

edit on 20-4-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Those that noticed that Jesus, as a child, was full of grace, are referring to his spiritual condition of being one with God. Such Grace or Presence emanates from the one who is completely surrendered in and as the Divine.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by bb23108

 

Yes but Jesus also said to fully live the commandments of love and that salvation was being reborn to here from above - in this life!

Paul says all that too, but you may not be seeing it through all the clutter spread by the "Free Grace" cults.
I'm re-reading the book that I mentioned earlier to see if I can give some better specific examples of Paul's teaching on the rebirth experience.
That is where the "material spirit" comes from in the title, the spirit that indwells us and changes us in this material existence, right now.

edit on 20-4-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Yes that would be most interesting if you find passages that speak in terms of being reborn to here from above said by Paul - i.e., that speak of the process of real communion or union with God in this life. Such is the real process of receiving God's Grace.

Paul is more concerned with sin and being made alive again through a process of faith rather than an actual in life process of fully surrendering the whole body-mind in love of God, as Jesus' first commandment clearly calls for and is the profound and necessary basis for preparing the body-mind to receive and commune with God in this life.

Thanks for your input!

By the way, those cults you often speak of are easy enough to filter out of real discriminative consideration, so no worries there.

Originally posted by bb23108

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

God's Grace is ever present . . .

Right, and that is something I haven't gotten into on this thread, the multiple uses for that word in the New Testament.
For example, the child Jesus was full of grace. Oh, was he handing things out to people, or was he a person with positive personal attributes in general?
It could mean a lot of things but always good things.

edit on 20-4-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Those that noticed that Jesus, as a child, was full of grace, are referring to his spiritual condition of being one with God. Such Grace or Presence emanates from the one who is completely surrendered in and as the Divine.

Nothing is apart from God.
Christ is the light that is appearing presently.
God is what sees that light - presently.
All happens in presence as presence.

Only man is lost in time - lost in thought. Man seeks what already is. But if man finds what is - he will no longer be a person lost in time - lost in thought., the person will be no more. Only presence will remain - all 'else' will be destroyed. All 'else' was only ever an illusion any way.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
Nothing is apart from God.
Christ is the light that is appearing presently.
God is what sees that light - presently.
All happens in presence as presence.

Only man is lost in time - lost in thought. Man seeks what already is. But if man finds what is - he will no longer be a person lost in time - lost in thought., the person will be no more. Only presence will remain - all 'else' will be destroyed. All 'else' was only ever an illusion any way.

edit on 20-4-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

Okay, but I was specifically responding to what jmdewey was speaking of in terms of what people might have meant when they said even as a child Jesus was full of grace - and you simply made some general statements of non-duality in response to my post, and so I am not sure why.

Originally posted by bb23108

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
Nothing is apart from God.
Christ is the light that is appearing presently.
God is what sees that light - presently.
All happens in presence as presence.

Only man is lost in time - lost in thought. Man seeks what already is. But if man finds what is - he will no longer be a person lost in time - lost in thought., the person will be no more. Only presence will remain - all 'else' will be destroyed. All 'else' was only ever an illusion any way.

edit on 20-4-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

Okay, but I was specifically responding to what jmdewey was speaking of in terms of what people might have meant when they said even as a child Jesus was full of grace - and you simply made some general statements of non-duality in response to my post, and so I am not sure why.

edit on 20-4-2013 by bb23108 because: (no reason given)

The reason I wrote the reply to you is because it appears that you are still lost in the story (of people, time and places).
The Bible is pointing to the same non dual non conceptual thing that is not a thing but is all there is.
Presence is all.
Presence is not a story but all stories arise here and subside here..

The stories take you off on little adventures away from presence into the past and into the future. The world that is imagined as past or future are not within 'conscious contact' - it cannot be tasted, smelled, heard or seen - it is just a story. But most do not see what is around them or hear the sounds that are arising presently because the mind is taking the attention - the thoughts are concerned with what will happen next or what happened before.
The thoughts can be seen as just an appearance appearing presently. No one knows what the next thought will be until it arises.
All is arising presently in presence as presence.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
The reason I wrote the reply to you is because it appears that you are still lost in the story (of people, time and places).

So you assume this and wrote all of what you wrote in response to me because I mentioned that Jesus' oneness with the Divine was the Presence or Grace people were likely referring to? It sounds like you could say what you said to me, in response to every post every made, including your own which are also at best indicators of what is true and also occur in time and space.

In fact, you do tend to make more or less the same general non-dual reductive statement a lot. It seems to me that it is better to consider matters in their given context and then apply whatever non-dual logic is appropriate and directly in context - rather than very frequently making the same general reductive non-dual argument without really going into the details of what the post's actual subject matter is. I mean, we could just say all conditional objects and others are an illusion arising in Unconditional Consciousness, and perhaps never even say anything again - but what good does that really do?

reply to post by EnochWasRight

. . . you are missing why taking on the name (Character) is part of God's work in us and not our work to do.

What? I'm not in the habit of accepting someone's philosophy when it has no basis other than the person's imagination.
You are going on as if you have a firm scriptural foundation, then building all this rhetoric on top of it, when you are missing the point of the verse you are taking as your key back-up.
I already went over that but since you want to play the proof text game, let me repeat what the context is.
It has to do with inheritance of the Old Testament promises through Jesus as the key inheritor. We enter into a special relationship with Jesus to become fellow heirs that removes the necessity of having some sort of particular heredity. We become a sort of universal recipient where we can stop worrying about the standard workaround, which is to convert to Judaism, to become part of the group who imagines themselves as the sole heirs.
We don't all of a sudden have as our name and character, Christ. We are like children who are adopted in and so have a part, deserving, or not, with whatever it is that is supposed to be this great and wonderful future thing that everyone desires.

. . . we cannot do it ourselves. It requires faith, which is God's work in us. We have no part in that faith other than recognizing what God is doing in and through us.

You are talking about believing. That is not what the point is that Paul making. We already believe or we wouldn't have been baptized in the first place.
What Paul means is his term Faith, as a way of life, the thing that in Christianity takes the role that Law had in the old material Israel. That is the new covenant spiritual "law".
As a sort of law, Faith is something we do ourselves in that we have to deal with problems every day and make choices about doing what is right, or doing what is wrong. We do it, though with spiritual guidance that is the major component of Faith. There is a spirit working inside us to make us better but that is how it works, incrementally, with every single choice and every action. We don't lie back and have good thoughts about how much we love, and God magically makes us better people with no effort on our parts.

“This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Jesus is saying that he is the one people are to come to as God's sole agent. If they do come, or if they even go away, it is God's will, and not that there is somehow something wrong with Jesus.
The "preparation" was his death and resurrection and ascension to Heaven. People were not prepared and it had to be accepted after the fact, once their preconceived ideas of the Messiah had been done away with as something they could still hold out hope for.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

Here is where you must know the true meaning and significance of baptism. You MUST be born again. This is how Elijah prepares the way and brings the father and the sons back together.

Being born again is something that in this life is always in the future, though baptism, among other things, does serve to symbolize a sort of metaphorical rebirth into the kingdom, as if we were naturally born people in that territory of God's Kingdom.
But the real rebirth has to wait until the resurrection. If we go around saying we are born again, then we are kind of deluding ourselves into thinking that God is already done with us and are now perfect.

1 Corinthians 13

11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Seeing face to face is Christ entrusting Himself to us in the mirror of our own character. The Father prepares us by baptism. You are immersed in the water as DEW to rise to new life. When you finally achieve stature in Christ and can claim the name, he reciprocates and two become one.

Paul is saying that we should love God, and it is not important that we know god perfectly now, because if we love God, then God knows us, and that being the case, even if we die this death from our current material being, God will bring us back, and then we will know everything we will ever need to know about God.
Paul was arguing about ideas people had about their wonderful personal religious experiences by saying all that is worthless if you don't love God.
You seem to be going in another direction by saying that you can have these little revelations on the nature of God, or be God, I guess.

reply to post by Itisnowagain


Dewey, itsnoagain, and bb.

The three of you have quite a debate going on Grace. All three of you are right, you are simply not seeing why.

Grace is God's unconditional love, the free gift that was given to man and sealed by the promise of the resurrection. God unconditionally love's all men.

Let us look at the concept from a child's viewpoint since Christ believed that little children could understand him. God is the love inside your heart. When you use your love to make a decision you receive love. When you do not use your love, you receive something else like anger. When you receive anger you become emotionally separated from God. Not that you could ever be separate from love, simply love cannot be felt when you do not use your love to make your choice.

Does that make since?

Dewey - you are so paranoid about a mark that it is causing you anxiety and you are judging others, by assuming you know who will and won't go to heaven. You simply cannot make the claim that anyone deserves heaven, nor can you make the claim that Christ cannot save all. You are so convinced of this Mark; your belief prevents you from realizing that God unconditionally loves everyone.

The RCC taught the message that condemns man; Jesus taught the message that frees a man. Anyone who was baptized into the RCC had to accept that "Original sin" was a necessary part of life. Do you see the RCC taught us that we have to sin? Jesus taught us that we could become free from sin. The anti-Christ has been revealed, the Mark already given.

The bible didn't get into the hands of believers until the end of the inquisition. You see no one could have been aware that the RCC was teaching a false doctrine, simply because they killed all the elect, anyone who disagreed with their Religion.

Knowing what you know, would you have received the Mark or allowed yourself to be martyred. I believe that I would have no choice but to become a Martyr. I simply cannot acknowledge anything less than God loves everyone unconditionally.

The bible says no one who sins can enter the Kingdome of heaven; it also says that anyone who receives the mark will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. These concepts are the same; The Kingdome of heaven is the kingdom of love.

Can someone who is sinning and believed that they will die in their sin ever recognize the Kingdome of love? This is what is wrong with "free grace cult" no one ever finds the kingdom of love if they believe they cannot become free from sin. They have condemned themselves to await the judgment of Christ at the end times, along with all others who are in sin. Only the one who overcomes sin can realize the glory of the kingdom of love that we are a part of and the promise of the better one to come. We are sons of God through Christ.

Anyone who is opposed to love is emotionally apart from the Kingdome of love. Repent and return to the Kingdom of love, by the Spirit of love.

You are marked by your choices, today's system, financial and religion is the beast. Because they teach us to sin, which keeps us apart from the son/love of man. At least twice since Christ have people been required to take a "Mark" to continue to be a part of the system. The RCC required all men to be baptized into the church or die. Hitler caused all the Jews to be marked and killed them anyway. Stop being paranoid of a mark. Rather lose yourself in God's love so that you know you are safe.

Itsnoagain and bb. I realize that YOU both understand that it is impossible to be away from God. I know that you see that we are all eternal and loved. This was a gift to you. Not all have received this gift. Many people have been raised to believe that they suffer from the disease called "Original Sin". They believe that it is impossible for man to love one another fully, because to sin is to go against love. When they hear Jesus they cannot hear him. Do you understand? They have believed something that has trapped them in a place apart from God.

Just because they are not apart from God, does not mean that emotionally they are not apart from God. Being emotionally disconnected from Love is Hell. They are trapped in their sin awaiting their physical death at which time they believe they will be spiritually enlightened. This is true but this falls far short of Jesus promise.

Jesus promise to change a man's character today. How can your character be changed when the foundation for changing your character goes against the belief that you have staked your entire life on. Christians are wagering that God will forgive them but that they will only truly be spiritually transformed after physical death. This is why Jesus says religion makes people children of hell, because religion separates what is in unity. This religion is in contrast to love, therefore it is sin. Love is love; we need no religion to understand this.

You can't get any further away from the truth than this. You say there is no separation and for you this concept fits perfectly. We are all different and we were all taught different things as children. There are brothers who are trapped in a world apart from God, not because they truly are but because they believe it so.

This is why the doctrine of repentance is critical. They have to acknowledge that they have accepted a lie. They believed they would achieve heaven by this lie, this is the ultimate brain wash. We need to help them see the truth. But for them Repentance is the only way.

For some can see through the dogma and realize that there was nothing to repent for, since you acted out of ignorance in believing in original sin. But for some the only way their heart can change is to repent and turn back to love. They cannot simply feel the love of God and allow it to change them. They have to hear the message, apply the teaching, and then they will know what you already know.

All three of you are right, because Grace is unconditional love that we can never truly be separated for.
Acknowledgement of sin and repentance is difficult for many people. This is why one should always start by teaching the child that God is love, before he tries to explain anything more.
I hope all three of you understand what I am saying.

reply to post by sacgamer25

Dewey - you are so paranoid about a mark that it is causing you anxiety and you are judging others, by assuming you know who will and won't go to heaven.

I think about the mark in Revelation. It's not something I am actively writing about now, as far as I know.
I don't think I am paranoid about it to where it affects my life.
All it is, the mark, is following a false religion that is not based on God, but material things that people worship.
I think the actual "prophetic" parts of Revelation already happened and the other parts that a lot of people think are still going to literally happen, those are just metaphors to give people hope that their suffering and hardship will be worth it in the end.
I don't think that I am judging anyone unless it is for being duped into accepting cult false beliefs.
I'm mainly trying to criticize the message and don't think that I am dealing with the perpetrators of those lies, personally.

reply to post by sacgamer25
Thank you for your thoughts. We are all in the same boat - when we sin, repentance is necessary in order to release the separative activity of sinning and return to recognize one's inherent non-separation from God. Such release of our body-mind's separative activity away from God is true repentance. In any moment one so recognizes that they are not separate from God, the inherent morality of the heart grants right response or action. If in any moment we feel separate from God or Love, then our actions will be not heart-based in love, and will be missing the mark.

It is not necessary or even ultimately fruitful to simply try and choose between sinning or not - we simply have to truly recognize our non-separation from God/Love/Unity and the right choices in life in each moment of such recognition become obvious. This is why Jesus gave the commandments of love in the order he did - first love God fully, then you will recognize-feel your non-separation from God (and others), and also be capable of loving one's neighbor as oneself (or as one's very self) - because we are inherently not separate.

But many people think they need to simply (somehow) stop sinning, have faith, and this will grant God-communion (or at least a guarantee of it someday). It will not work this way because all such attempts to just control behavior to stop sinning are already assuming one is separate from God - i.e., missing the mark, which is sinning. This is why one cannot truly love one's neighbor as oneself until one recognizes we are not separate from our neighbor - in the unity of communion with God.