To those who think North Korea is an easy win.....

I've been watching posts and statements for awhile now from folks who are so hooked on the propaganda from OUR side that suggests we're superior to the world that the time has well come to say something, in my opinion.


I call this propaganda, because it IS just that. Arrogant, ignorant and outright misguided thinking brought on by a society led to believe we are the absolute masters of the Planet Earth and the only fight we can ever lose is a fight we choose to lose. Well, I'm here to say.....not everyone shares that sentiment and not everyone who has HAD that sentiment in the past kept it for very long.

In 2003, after invading Iraq, Dick 'Vader' Cheney had great fun about ridiculing the Fedayeen Saddam, or Iraqi irregulars who were trained and equipped before the American forces crossed the border to stage guerilla fighting on the flanks and to the rear of U.S. Forces. Such a hurry the U.S. found itself in, some enemy positions were reported to have been in shock and then befuddlement when U.S. forces came, saw them and barely even slowed down from high speeds running right through their positions on the mad dash north. Bad P.R.....not securing a nation for future peace and success...was the priority.

Also in 2003, the President at the time George W. Bush said these famous words about the 'rag tag rebels' and 'disgruntled former army soldiers' as they were described among many other things.



He was so full of Hubris and outright ignorance of reality, he couldn't be bothered to even CONSIDER the fact the U.S. could lose that war. However, leaving under the conditions we did leaves no other description to my thinking. To the extent anyone can even say conditions improved toward the end, it was a matter of the enemy FINALLY learning that if they just stopped their attacks and fighting for awhile the U.S. would LEAP at the chance to leave.

Now, for those who think Bush just lived the sentiment voiced above and would still feel good and proud of what he said? I share this.....and how even THAT man was humbled by his own arrogance.



To express confidence is natural, normal and given the United States spending and accomplishments on military development? It's healthy. Confidence is healthy. Hubris is deadly. There is no other way to put that in warfare.

_____________________

He who fights as if on the edge of losing, will likely win. He who enters a fight as if having already won, won't likely leave the battlefield alive.

_____________________

North Korea doesn't have F-22's. They don't have B-1 or B-2 Strategic Bombers. They don't even have Satellites aside from one wildcard no one can really know what the purpose behind is. Their navy is..well, a tugboat command to put it one way. Their armor is outdated and largely from the LAST war they basically lost. (China pushed the U.S. down to the DMZ and forced the settlement. The U.S. had basically won when China said 'Oh NO you don't!')

What they DO have is just over 1 million people in active duty and over 8 million in reserves. All told and across ALL forms of military readiness status? The number is considerably higher.

This is a nation that has no electricity across all but a few locations. They have no TV where power is wired and running except state TV and it's not showing The Simpsons, let alone CNN. To say they live in abject poverty is making people in the truly poor nations of the world look downright middle class. This isn't fantasy. There are any number of guides online to show this from inside that closed nation and with video of the people, empty streets, empty shops and empty faces.

This is to say, they have very little to lose, no distractions and absolutely nothing but DEEP HATRED for the U.S. since 1953 and the end of hostilities from the last war. (They never agreed to formally end it, hence the way I worded that....and their people are well aware of at least THAT bit of news)

They'll be fighting for their homes and they'll be fighting for a leader they have been raised since birth to believe is Divine. Literally. Divine. Their fight will, in their eyes, be against the Devils of the planet. That's us. In other words, they'll be fighting with the one thing we WON'T BE. A DEEP DEEP conviction born of raw passion, FEAR and desperation.

_____________________

So....I sure would love the Hubris George Bush showed in the first video ...and then watched them GLEEFULLY take him up on to horrible effect on our people, be considered by folks who seem to share it and MORE. The United States Military is the most advanced in technology and among the most highly skilled and trained.

North Koreans have Heart and they have nowhere left to run or hide. Nothing to do BUT fight ...with the sincere belief that capture is worse than death for the horrors we'd supposedly visit upon every last one of them. This belief forced the Japanese to throw themselves with their children off the cliffs at Okinawa. It'll happen again if this is handled like a short fight to put down a Goober.

The United States absolutely CAN lose this war. We've lost (or failed to win, as kinder way to say it) several since World War II ended. Our nation is in a terrible mess and very real trouble without any fighting anywhere else right now. This is the last thing we need and it'll go for years if it doesn't end VERY quickly by Chinese intervention or a general, total collapse of the DPRK ...which even the experts don't seriously expect.

I hope Obama can show a hair more wisdom and judgement than Bush in 2003. Failing that, I do wish average people would put down the cool-aid, step back slowly and breathe. Air helps thinking and thinking has been lacking too much lately. The LOVE of war and death, FAR too strong. Enough with war and death. It's just too much for a whole new war unless we or South Korea are attacked in a way NO ONE IN THE WORLD can deny was the result of North Korean intentional action. (like half a million Koreans crossing the DMZ, headed south ...or a DPRK Nuke detonating anywhere outside their OWN national borders)

(Hops off soapbox and goes to bed)

* As a parting thought. Learn from Bush. When one tempts fate? Sometimes fate IS listening and the Gods of War are watching ......because they cannot stop laughing hysterically long enough to look away.

Another great unbiased thread from you on the North Korea "crisis" Wrabbit, well done, S&F.

Another thing that gets on my nerves by everyone who swallows all the US/EU propaganda without asking ANY questions are the people who constantly spout, "Let's go in and turn their country to glass", and my personal favourites are "Lil Kim or that little Fat Bastard is just throwing their toys out of the pram".

Very mature rhetoric from people who keep asking to be sold more bullsh1t, because they like buying it!

I was really hunting hard for a specific movie clip but I can't seem to find it. I found the quotes, and I'll have those after the clip I did find.

In 1981, a movie came out that was very powerful in a number of ways. It's one I've seen run on broadcast and cable over the years since and it's never ceased to catch my attention. It showed the contrast between people who, perhaps for the right reasons and with best intentions, end up pursuing the worst lines of thought and motivations to their own total destruction.

The movie was an all-star cast, before many of these guys were stars. Sean Penn, Timothy Hutton, George C. Scott and Tom Cruise. Top Gun, this sure wasn't. The movie was TAPS. Those who saw it, I imagine, never quite forgot it. It was one of those films. Love it or hate it...it wasn't one likely forgotten.

This was from the final over-run of the Academy by National Guard and regular Army after surrender had been decided and everything called off to walk out without a shot being fired.....until one entirely too enamored by the idea of killing and dying fired that ONE shot to make everything else meaningless.



That's the scene and image that comes to mind when some sentiments are written lately. I've got no corner on right, wrong or free speech. This is simply my opinion and I've got a right to share it as well.

The person who 'rambo' in the corner room fired the shot and killed to start the 'war' the scene is happening in the middle of had a few very memorable quotes in the movie. Among them, and what I was SO trying to find in a video clip, are #1 and #6 from this page.

Colonel Kerby trying to talk sense into minds filled with images of glory and war

The language isn't family rated, so I link rather than quote.

Thanks for reading my rant, assuming you have, to have gotten this far. It's just one bunny's ranting thoughts on a quiet night before what may be a war no one in their right mind could want to see happen. Quite literally, IMO.

They have the heart? They have nothing to lose? They don't have anything to live for, yet they're fighting for their home? Let's step into reality here, who do you think will fight harder, the man with nothing to lose, or the man with everything to lose?

If there was real factual proof shown to the American people that North Korea can in fact attack our homeland, and they made the slightest attempt to, military enlistment will boost just like it did after 9/11. The people enlisting will know what they are getting into, those are the people with hearts. Those are the people who know they have everything to lose, a family, a nice life, all the luxuries and privileges in the world other people outside of the U.S. couldn't imagine, but they're putting that on the line to protect their home, family, neighbors, and possessions.

Whether or not we have a shady government, a country full of not so bright people, and people who've been conditioned to think more of themselves then they should, we still have good people ready to take up a fight for their country when a real threat is sensed. People who could care less if it were North Korea we're fighting, or the Canadians. The only thing that matters is protecting what you love from a threat. You can say 99% of our battles were fought with no real incentives.

If it comes down to it, the South Koreans will fight harder than any other countries soldiers in the battle, and don't second guess that those people have heart and something to fight for either. They themselves can and will take care of North Korea if it comes down to it, believe that.

I think you thought this out completely wrong.

reply to post by FidelityMusic

Okay. So now the US isn't even necessary. The ROK will kick their butts, send them the bill and have it all wrapped up before anyone knows what happened.

I'm very glad the South Koreans don't run on that level of thinking. Confidence they have....as well they should. Confidence that they MUST fight with every last ounce of strength they have or they will be overrun and annihilated.

Phoenix358 just recently did a solid thread on Korea and what the first hour may look like.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Now if you haven't seen that....as you're suggesting the DPRK is just ripe fruit to be picked off or something, you may want to.

Then...I'd encourage anyone to pull up Google Earth..or one of the other public domain satellite imagery services. Google is the best but they aren't the only one. Now...try and find even 20% of the guns all reports agree ARE within firing distance of Seoul. Estimates range from a low end of 10,000 individual guns up to 13,000. Artillery isn't small. Emplacements to support them are even larger .....normally. Again? Try and locate even 20% of them. I have. I spent hours on that. They ARE there. They must be...so are the thousands and thousands of tanks he's KNOWN to have. Try finding just 10% of those. You won't. These people have been digging down to make certain they cannot be bombed and hurt by conventional military forces overhead. ...and they started when President TRUMAN was in office. They've been at it 7 days a week, every day since.


The arguments and points need to at least get some creative development. I fell for it along with the nation ..twice (2002 and 2003). I'll not fall for the B.S. logic of a war a 3rd time, thank you. If we're attacked outright? It *ALL* changes ...until then? This fantasy of quick fights and easy victory is as warped as Kim's thinking and it's based PRECISELY the same. The belief in self that is SO total, anything but absolute superiority is just unthinkable.

Hubris.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

This is a nation that has no electricity across all but a few locations. They have no TV where power is wired and running except state TV and it's not showing The Simpsons, let alone CNN. To say they live in abject poverty is making people in the truly poor nations of the world look downright middle class. This isn't fantasy. There are any number of guides online to show this from inside that closed nation and with video of the people, empty streets, empty shops and empty faces.

This is to say, they have very little to lose, no distractions and absolutely nothing but DEEP HATRED for the U.S.
They'll be fighting for their homes and they'll be fighting for a leader they have been raised since birth to believe is Divine. Literally. Divine. Their fight will, in their eyes, be against the Devils of the planet. That's us. In other words, they'll be fighting with the one thing we WON'T BE. A DEEP DEEP conviction born of raw passion, FEAR and desperation.

I remember a newspaper article about 10 years ago when all this nuclear stuff had started and the "axis of evil" thing was going. The article was about how NK thought and what they would do if invaded etc. I had not long come out of a cult that I had been in from birth. I was a little shocked when I read the words of a North Korean soldier that the journalist had interviewed. He said "I am willing to lose my physical life so my political life will live forever". Substitute the word political for spiritual and you have the exact words that I and millions of others in that cult had used in affirming our devotion to the leader. Thing is, I really believed it and was willing to do it, I have family members still in that cult and they are still willing to do it too. When this war starts on April 19th accidentally (I think this is a possible scenario) then it will be like a land invasion of Japan would have been, had WWII come to that, with little kids taught to poke US soldier's eyes out with sticks. Make no mistake, they will fight tooth and nail down to the last man.

The problem very often is that some of the armchair airborne brigade can not be bothered to do the real research.

As you said Wrabbit, try and find their artillery on Google earth, good luck. You can't find most of their air force either. They have masses of missiles and mobile missile launchers, they are well hidden as well.

Sure you rain down bombs but if you don't know where they are then you can't hurt them overly much. "Our bombs are accurate to 1 square meter, which square meter should we aim for?"

North Korea has taken the lessons, successful lessons learned in Vietnam and spent 60 years preparing for the US and SK.

According to multiple sources US military analysts have found many obvious anti air emplacements to be dummies set up for the US to attack. They are ready!

We can take them, but the losses will be horrendous! That assumes that China stays out of it. It assumes Russia stays out of it and neither of those two will accept US controlled NK on their doorsteps.

S&F

P

NK scares me. Very badly.

All it takes is an EMP strike and we're finished for a long, long, time. Our enemies could just sit back and wait while we kill each other over food and medicine. Then, when less than a third of us remain....invade and that's that.

History is full of examples like you mentioned, Wrabbit. Overconfident bullies getting their collective butts handed to them by the underdog.

I think NK may be an underdog....but they're smart. We should take this seriously and do away with all the bragging and rhetoric.

reply to post by pheonix358


I was a cannon fire direction control specialist in the US ARMY for 6 years, I assure you, no matter how well hiddeb, as soon as that same artillery fires 1 round to clears the tree line its position is known by radar, and counter battery fire is sent to neutralise it.

To wrabbit, you do realise we have not actually fought a single war since ww2 right?

If we had a true total war, we would and could level north korea in a matter of weeks. We could break the people, the .gov and everything above sticks and stones tech beyond recognition.

We have not once used our full ability since ww2 , don't misunderstand the use of kid gloves, with real warfare, we haven't actually used real warfare in all but the oldests lifetimes.

Just my take.....

reply to post by inverslyproportional

I'd have to take serious issue in disagreement with not having fought a real war since World War II.

We do not live in a world today where the Total War concept is either necessary or tolerable. (Much of that was pure lack of accuracy. Drop thousands of bombs from hundreds of bombers and STILL miss the factory or whatever) I couldn't even imagine today's Western military leaders being able to stomach the deliberate losses of 10's of thousands of pure civilians on a single attack run as happened in World War II in some of the worst examples.

Now I do only see two I'd call full blown wars ...and yeah, people can nit pick the heck out of them to say why they weren't World War class. Vietnam and Korea. In fact, both wars even featured the very serious consideration of nuclear weapons release at some point. Vietnam was considered for tactical nuclear weapons use at the siege of Khe Sanh. 40,000 NVA troops in a known area was almost too much for our side to resist.

Korea came with MacArthur and his .....mental break...I'd call it, while starting to honestly suggest nuclear weapons along the DPRK/Chinese border with Cobalt-60 distribution as a follow-up and nightmarish "natural barrier".

The Chinese entry caused an immediate escalation of the air campaign. From November 1950, General Douglas MacArthur ordered that a wasteland be created between the fighting front and the Chinese border, destroying from the air every "installation, factory, city, and village" over thousands of square miles of North Korean territory. As a well-informed British attaché to MacArthur's headquarters observed, except for Najin near the Soviet border and the Yalu dams (both spared so as not to provoke Moscow or Beijing), MacArthur's orders were "to destroy every means of communication and every installation, and factories and cities and villages. This destruction is to start at the Manchurian border and to progress south." On 8 November 1950, 79 B-29s dropped 550 tons of incendiaries on Sinuiju, "removing [it] from off the map." A week later Hoeryong was napalmed "to burn out the place." By 25 November "a large part of [the] North West area between Yalu River and south to enemy lines is more or less burning"; soon the area would be a "wilderness of scorched earth."

That was very close to total war.....but that wasn't what got his butt canned like tuna. This is:

In interviews published posthumously, MacArthur said he had a plan that would have won the war in 10 days: "I would have dropped 30 or so atomic bombs . . . strung across the neck of Manchuria." Then he would have introduced half a million Chinese Nationalist troops at the Yalu and then "spread behind us -- from the Sea of Japan to the Yellow Sea -- a belt of radioactive cobalt . . . it has an active life of between 60 and 120 years. For at least 60 years there could have been no land invasion of Korea from the North." He was certain that the Russians would have done nothing about this extreme strategy: "My plan was a cinch." (12)

Source

That was what Korea came to...how far it had gone ..and the sheer desperation and , yes, I'd even say madness, of one of the most well known and respected (or loathed...depending on who is asked) military leaders America has had.

This is the place we're looking at going back to...and the same things that made them SO hard to kill then, have multiplied by orders of magnitude in 60 long years of preparation they've now spent.

----------------

I hear you on the counter-battery fire. It was said to exist in Vietnam too..and classified. Not for how well it worked, but because it didn't work near well enough.

....and if it is so effective today? How were forces from Somalia to Iraq to Afghanistan taking everything from mortars to rockets right into base areas without effective suppression fire? I know part was the aversion to counter-firing right into neighborhoods the enemy fired from ...but that highlights the problem. Korea would hardly be different and the Koreans, far from having that lesson lost on them.

( If we want to get REAL extreme into 'coulda/woulda/shoulda' we could end a war in Korea in about 36 hours ... if the world wouldn't END US for using Neutron Weapons across the width and breadth ....the thing is.. even *I* would be almost violently against that done in my name... )

Let's all just continue to hope this peters out, unlike ..say .. 1991 where "experts" also said Saddam could see he couldn't possibly win..He would no push to war against 500,000 coalition troops...but then, he did and they did. Leaders do illogical and outright STUPID things.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


The problem with your analogy is that you are missing some very critical pieces of info.

1. Total war was waged against us by these armies, they held nothing back, and fought with everything they had, we never came close.

2. Our modern artillery is deadly accurate, and more than capable of stopping and destroying anyone dumb enough to use it agaisnt us. We refrain n the name of killing civies.

3. A direct attwck on american civilians, as propossed by north korea would result in total war, and the populous would support it. The civillian populous was never under threat, nor even harmed, during the first koran war or vietnam. They were wars of idieology, not wars of protection.

4. The hundreds of thousands of civillian deaths caused by some radicals attacking american citizens at home should let you know how far the people would let it.go if korea.actually launched a nuke at us, even if we shot it down.

The world would do nothing but complain if we used nukes or anything else on north korea, russia and china are not willing to die to protect a ignorant douche bag, spoiled brat man child, in a tiny country, the world could live just fine without.

I am not saying it should happen, or even condone such actions. Just saying we are capable, and there is nothing, short of full out nuclear war that could stop s if we wanted to do it.

reply to post by inverslyproportional

The world would do nothing but complain if we used nukes or anything else on north korea, russia and china are not willing to die to protect a ignorant douche bag, spoiled brat man child, in a tiny country, the world could live just fine without.

With respect, I think we'll have to really agree to disagree. It's not even something I can think of a way to debate because it's down to a fundamental difference in world view and interpretation of the overall global community we live in and how it's changed.

If North Korea actually detonated a thermonuclear warhead over an American city (the absolute least likely scenario, in my research and opinion) then ALL bets are off and we're at World War in about the time it takes for the flash to subside and satellites to confirm what no one is left alive down there to report out by any other means.

Short of opening pandora's box as if a child with a new toy ...and North Korea moved on ROK ...as their battle plans by Kim Sung clearly call for, then the idea the world wouldn't react to OUR use of anything Nuclear is where that almost illogical superiority of thinking comes in, IMHO.

This is, in many ways, the thinking and world view I believe the Nazis had in the late 1930s. *ALL* reference to their camps, "final solution" or that whole side of their existence aside for a moment to focus on JUST the military reality and strategic situation that existed there?

.....this is what I imagine they told each other as they were in fighting in Europe, over England, heading into the Middle East and North Africa all at once ...and THEN... Well, why not? Russia pissed them off, take them down too! The point most historical analysis I've read cite for where the German 'Empire' in the making took one bite too many and doomed themselves to total destruction.

If we nuked North Korea ..or ANY nation on the planet for that matter, without taking a real nuclear detonation with civilian losses? I think we may get what we had just given and in quantity. Russia and China would, in a nanosecond, have VERY good reason to not just be nervous but outright fear us in a way that isn't healthy, it's insanely reckless.

Just my take .... and feelings on pretty much any mention of nuclear arms being used on any level which isn't a direct retaliatory strike, and limited at that, for one successfully used against us.

*** The breaking of a Taboo which has been respected since 1945 is the absolute worst nightmare scenario I can imagine. If OUR nation is the one to break it first ..whatever the provocation ...I think we truly DO become seen as the rogue nation many merely suggest we are now.

Great post Wrabbit....

TAPS is a film i would recommend to anyone...great film.. i had almost forgot about it...so long ago

I share your feelings about NK etc... i hope it gets sorted out without a "loose cannon" starting it all.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by FidelityMusic

 

Then...I'd encourage anyone to pull up Google Earth..or one of the other public domain satellite imagery services. Google is the best but they aren't the only one. Now...try and find even 20% of the guns all reports agree ARE within firing distance of Seoul. Estimates range from a low end of 10,000 individual guns up to 13,000. Artillery isn't small. Emplacements to support them are even larger .....normally. Again? Try and locate even 20% of them. I have. I spent hours on that. They ARE there. They must be...so are the thousands and thousands of tanks he's KNOWN to have. Try finding just 10% of those. You won't. These people have been digging down to make certain they cannot be bombed and hurt by conventional military forces overhead. ...and they started when President TRUMAN was in office. They've been at it 7 days a week, every day since.

edit on 14-4-2013 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)

Dude...ummm....you realize that Google and the others aren't LIVE satellite images...right?

If war does break out, and millions of NK's are killed, I would imagine the same number for the other nations fighting also, I would really say with utter truth.

I do not want to live on this planet anymore

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I don't disagree that it would be a very troubling idea, or that it would strain relations with not just Russia or china, but all nations of the world.

I am saying Russia and china will not doom themselves to automatic death, because we nuked north korea.

It is and has been a pathetic thorn in their sides, that they readily admit is out of control a lot of the time.

They only support it, in the small ways they do, because it is a good way to thumb their noses at us.

It is not a good ally, it is not important, it is already cut off from the world.

Its utter annihilation would be little more than an annoyance.

The only actual repercussions would be them fearing we were out of control, and now have to worry they might be next.

They would not risk nuclear war with us because of them under any situation, as it is an automatic loss, there is no winning play, they would not do such a thing. Especially not for north korea.

Maybe for themselves, but not another.


I am not advocating such an action in any way, I would find such an action to be the line in the sand where we must stand up and force a change in our .gov. As such an action would qualify as out of control in my book.

It isn't something I would like to see, or would even wish on anyone, no matter their wrongs. It is though the way I see the world stage being played out.

If china really cared, they wouldntet millions starve to death in korea every year, nor would Russia.

Korea is the guy that pisses us off, so they support them, because they also enjoy pissing us off.

Originally posted by WeAreAWAKE

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by FidelityMusic

 

Then...I'd encourage anyone to pull up Google Earth..or one of the other public domain satellite imagery services. Google is the best but they aren't the only one. Now...try and find even 20% of the guns all reports agree ARE within firing distance of Seoul. Estimates range from a low end of 10,000 individual guns up to 13,000. Artillery isn't small. Emplacements to support them are even larger .....normally. Again? Try and locate even 20% of them. I have. I spent hours on that. They ARE there. They must be...so are the thousands and thousands of tanks he's KNOWN to have. Try finding just 10% of those. You won't. These people have been digging down to make certain they cannot be bombed and hurt by conventional military forces overhead. ...and they started when President TRUMAN was in office. They've been at it 7 days a week, every day since.

edit on 14-4-2013 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)

Dude...ummm....you realize that Google and the others aren't LIVE satellite images...right?

"dude", umm... You do understand the DMZ defense positions were not just made in the last year..or even last 5 years, right? Google Earth images aren't real time and neither are the items of interest a person would want to be looking for there. That's been the most heavily militarized international border on Earth since long before I was born ...and that's back to the 70's to be general on things.

As it happens, I just checked the date for the image showing the border crossing between South Korea and North, along the road to the Kaesong Industrial Complex. It's dated 10/13/2012. That 6 months time. You figure Kim *JUST* moved these things ...being written about for the last 15 years I have sources bookmarked for, inside the last 6 months?

C'mon... That reply was outright insulting.

reply to post by inverslyproportional

Okay, fair enough and I misunderstood you about first strike without a successful detonation over our soil or, to be fair, that of an allied nation. I do agree, the world changes if that happens.

Even there though, I think we'd be asking ..not just informing, Putin of our intentions and insuring there wasn't going to be a conflict.

China is very definitely UP wind of any fallout or other issues. Vladivostok is not necessarily so safely situated and it's less than 90 miles from the North Korean border on the Northeast. Vladivostok is basically Russia's Pearl Harbor in that it's the headquarters to their Pacific Naval fleet. It's a very very small neighborhood with some very BIG neighbors if weapons with potential "splash damage" start getting thrown around, is my main thinking.


It also still would not surprise me if, assuming Kim did have a cosmic scale brain fart and DID something more than just test one of his nuclear bombs, the next weapon flying had a Chinese or even Russian flag on it. China might just see that as the ultimate America Repellant. They sure as heck don't want us on that border. They'd take all the reason we'd have to do that if they eliminated the problem immediately following a problem occurring, IMO.

The question is..would they? Hard to say ...and heck, we're still way out in hypothetical land anyway. Kim may have the longer range ICBM ...but THAT part is as speculative as saying Iraq had WMD. We only KNOW he has things that will detonate and it's reasonable to assume, can somehow gravity drop them as a bomb if nothing else. (Good luck to him, getting one of those across the DMZ going South is my thought.)

I have been continually assessing this as time goes on and taking into consideration many different viewpoints mostly from ATS. My conclusions are disheartening. Try and consider the whole ball game from North Korea's perspective and try and put aside MSM crap!

One of the advantages I have is that I grew up with all this. For me, much of it is history that I have lived through. There is little real difference in moral high ground between the two sides, for every evil thing NK is said to have done I can find equally evil things that the US has done.

From NK perspective.

Japan is evil considering what they did in WW2.

After WW2 the US were engaged in imperial expansions throughout the Pacific putting evil puppet Governments in power. (Philippines as just one example.)

The US put their own puppet government in power in South Korea.

The North tried to evict the US from SK in the first Korean War and failed. They are very grateful to China for saving their backsides and their esteem.

The US continues to expand its empire destroying country after country either with direct firepower or by proxy. NK intelligence knows factual information, it does not get its facts from the MSM but rather from its own people and Chinese and Russian intelligence services.

For the last 60 years the US has vilified them as evil and rouge and all the other not nice words while they merrily go and do evil to other countries.

Recently, NK was labelled as part of the axis of evil - to be destroyed at all costs.

Every year the US displays its might in provocative war games.

The US has thousands on Nukes, they give the to Israel and no one says boo. South Africa has them and no one says boo. But NK is hit with crippling sanctions WTF.

NK is next! We will have to fight. Well, if we have to fight, then fight we will, on our time table.

If it looks like we will loose we will teach the Bs a lesson and fire all our Nukes, Chemicals and Bios as a last stand scenario. God help China and Russia if they attack as well.

Both sides are just as bad, if NK is nuked then kiss Japan and SK goodbye, they will be destroyed! NK will have nothing at all to lose, nothing.


P