Beyonce and Jay-Z Cuba Visit Queried...

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


If that's the only irony you see in this thread and regarding the actual topic, you need to have your vision checked. Cheers !!

Furthermore, I have already said I would never visit until the Govt changes its policies for the betterment of its citizens. Not gonna happen anytime soon. So continue supporting the govt. with your cheap vacations. Just know that none of your money is helping the people unless you are a generous tipper. kind of doubt that..

Originally posted by jibeho
So continue supporting the govt. with your cheap vacations. Just know that none of your money is helping the people unless you are a generous tipper.

kind of doubt that..

What do you think the government does with the money from tourism? It educates its people and provides heath care, among other things. That increases its people's ability to raise their standards of living. I do believe some of their public health indices are way better than the US. They also have a standard basis of food rationing. It may not be much...but it's something. Economically, they are permitting limited private business and have lifted their exit tax for citizens, allowing them more mobility.

As to tipping? I weigh down my suitcase with school supplies, clothing and niceties which are expensive down there.

Plus I tip well. So I guess you're still wrong.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


How about the housing problem that you failed to notice or comment on... Yes, everyone gets medical care and just enough food to sustain life. Private ownership and enterprise is still banned so those people have no chance without the govt. How does that work?

Standard of Living? They are not allowed to improve their standard of living. The standard is dictated by the govt.

School supplies? How noble of you. Surprised they let you in with those. Your act of bringing supplies suggests that govt is unable to provide for its people.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
How ironic that the one who is bad-mouthing the country the most is forbidden by his government to find out for himself.

That's the thing that I find really ironic about people thinking they know a country that they have never visited. However, I also have questionably "enjoyed" the experience of having my movements in a Communist country be restricted by the host country. Basically, when I went to the USSR, every segment of my trip was organized and monitored by the Soviet government. I ended up having to sneak off my group to actually see some of the ghettos and the monster lines for toilet paper, guided by a young local woman I had met in the hotel bar (she had snuck in). Those were things that they absolutely did not want me to see as a tourist in their country. I guess the experienced question would be, when you have gone to Cuba, were you allowed the freedom to go wherever you wanted or were you monitored/followed/guided by a Cuban "tour guide"? The latter was definitely my experience in the USSR. They only wanted us seeing the "good stuff" and none of the "bad stuff" to the extent of driving us in circles for hours in a big city--Moscow.

reply to post by WhiteAlice


My roommate in college had a similar experience while in the USSR on a student trip. No one wandered off course though.

As for comments on Cuba... They pertain to the Govt and its oppressive policies not the people themselves. The Cuban govt. decides who will be successful in that country, they also decides who gets what and how much. Period. There is no private enterprise in Cuba that is not related the booming and illegal black market. I don't need to travel to Cuba to understand that.

Who needs to go to Cuba?

We have our very own communist revolutionaries wearing Che t-shirts, and underwear.

Originally posted by jibeho
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

 

How about the housing problem that you failed to notice or comment on... Yes, everyone gets medical care and just enough food to sustain life. Private ownership and enterprise is still banned so those people have no chance without the govt. How does that work?

Standard of Living? They are not allowed to improve their standard of living. The standard is dictated by the govt.

School supplies? How noble of you. Surprised they let you in with those. Your act of bringing supplies suggests that govt is unable to provide for its people.

Sorry man, you're proving your ignorance. I saw some pretty simple housing...much of it is poured concrete...but I saw a lot of tv antennas and electricity going in to them. I told you they are allowing private enterprise once the requirements of the state have been met. You glossed over that one. How can you say that they are not allowed to improve their standards when they are provided education and health care? Read whatever you want, but I'm surprised you are telling us that you have no inclination towards going and finding out for yourself...even though it is forbidden. This conversation with you is through since you seem to think that dogma trumps experience.

Originally posted by jibeho
reply to post by WhiteAlice

 

My roommate in college had a similar experience while in the USSR on a student trip. No one wandered off course though.

At the time, I knew it was a risk but there was a couple hours in the itinerary that were left unscheduled so we had breaks where we could go places within walking distance of our hotels that we stayed at in Leningrad (Now St. Petersburg) and Moscow. They didn't expect us to have any kind of local contact that could potentially lead us out of the vicinity of the hotels as the hotels were forbidden to locals and had their own bar/restaurants (typical hotel on that part). The visitors to the hotels were primarily foreign tourists or dignitaries from Communist bloc countries. The young woman that I met had sneaked into the bar herself and I can only suspect why she was really there. Regardless, she realized what kind of impression I was getting on the trip (confusion) and decided to show me reality. Next day, off we went using the public transit in Moscow. She was 19 and I was 17 so young and stupid would apply. I also was under the dumb impression that my grandfather would somehow be able to save me if I got caught. Very dumb because they would've probably classified me as a spy if I had been because of his former position. I'm glad that I did it though because it allowed me to see just how awful it was there when that was blocked information. I paid her in toilet paper (she'd been out for 2 weeks) when we got back to my hotel. To this day, I worry about what happened to her afterwards.

This was the view from my hotel in Leningrad/St. Petersburg. That's the Trinity Church in the background and we actually walked down there to check it out on one of our "free" times. It was basically treated like a landfill. Garbage, old mattresses, a broken bike inside of a fenced inclosure. Was heartbreaking and they actually let us see that. imgur.com...

Hence my question to the Canadians who have visited Cuba and why it's an important question. If there was limits on freedom of movement, then the question of the actual state of Cuba should be questioned.

Beyonce and her husband Jay-Z visited Havana, Cuba's capital, but apparently, they may or may not have gained permission from the US government to travel there, and two Republican members of Congress want to find out if they did?

Meh, Dennis Rodman went to North Korea without permission and the government didn't bother him over it. Nothing will come of this "query".

Originally posted by LeatherNLace

Beyonce and her husband Jay-Z visited Havana, Cuba's capital, but apparently, they may or may not have gained permission from the US government to travel there, and two Republican members of Congress want to find out if they did?

Meh, Dennis Rodman went to North Korea without permission and the government didn't bother him over it. Nothing will come of this "query".

In a sad way, Rodman is almost like our only ambassador to Kim and NK. Actually, that's really freaking depressing the more that I think about it. Gonna go cry into a pillow.

Originally posted by WhiteAlice
Hence my question to the Canadians who have visited Cuba and why it's an important question. If there was limits on freedom of movement, then the question of the actual state of Cuba should be questioned.

We had no restriction on movement. We could have rented a car and traveled around but declined because...as in Mexico and lots of other places...you get into an accident, it's automatically your fault. We have taken bus tours into cities and towns and gone wherever we wanted to on our free time. Havana included. Did we find the worst part of town and explore? Nope. There's places in Toronto I wouldn't suggest you go, either. Did we see beggars? Yup. See them in Toronto too. Did we seek out military bases and hang around the fences with cameras? Ah, nope.

Bottom line is that at no time did we feel 'managed', or restricted in our movements. Cubans are allowed to share the beaches, in fact the law dictates they are entitled to and they are sharing with us. I've talked to plenty of Cubans, but I won't enter their comments into the conversation as we know they were all commissars paid to spy on us and feed us propaganda, eh? Suffice to say that they bitch as much as we do, but are a fiercely proud people, and proud of their accomplishments as a nation.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


Thanks for clarifying on that point, JohnnyCanuck. There's a few areas in my area that you wouldn't want to go to either. Hope you understood why I asked based on my experience in the USSR.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

I told you they are allowing private enterprise once the requirements of the state have been met. You glossed over that one.

Yes, I did miss that one and back in 2010 they did start to embrace private enterprise/coop when the govt. was forced to laid off 500,000 people in one fell swoop. Guess that old formula was no longer working. Thank Raul for that change.

So, you saw some poured concrete walls , antennae and electrical wires. Wow! did you go inside those buildings? Did you see the buildings that were collapsing and literally crumbling. Salt air and salt spray will rapidly kill poorly made and poorly laid concrete.

Done!

reply to post by elysiumfire


HAHAHAH!!! Pathetic! The land of the free? How so when even its most affluent members are expected to ask permission to travel to a given location ?

What utter garbage. This sounds like nonsense, and if its true that they are comming under scrutiny for traveling to Cuba, then you all might as well get down on your knees, interlace your fingers across the backs of your heads and prepare to be oppressed.

Utterly ridiculous.