Is Christ's Resurrection Important to you (Theists)?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

How exactly is his own death and resurrection relevant to the message he was giving?

I could have quoted any one of several members, I agree entirely that it doesn't make one whit of a difference if he resurrected or not (which I'm with windword on that one- see her post above)... In fact, I believe he survived - with help from his friends, medical attention, and possibly a supernatural sort of assistance or enlightened self-healing....which is "miracle" enough.

S/F OP! Excellent thread.
My answer: His teachings are all that really matter - his actual teachings, about non-separation and the Divinity within all of us. The resurrection, in my opinion, is a myth. That does not, in any way, dismiss his teachings for kindness, charity, or meditation to commune with the Divine and care for one another.

Matthew 12:38-42. Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You."

39 But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

40 "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

41 "The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.

42 "The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.


Will you hear the wisdom of Jesus? The sign of Jesus' three days and nights in the heart of the earth is for a sinning and unfaithful people who refuse to believe that they will be held accountable for their choices in speech and in action, they will use that sign to base their salvation. The mother harlot has many children. The evil and unfaithful people who use that sign to convince themselves that they are justified in God's sight, but Jesus himself said that everyone will be judged according to what they have done and by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned.
I've noticed that amongst the majority of Christians, Jesus' words teachings and actions are put to the wayside even after Jesus specifically addressed this with the parable where the seeds get thrown to the wayside and birds come and devour, while the life of Paul and his words and actions take precedence over Jesus' teachings, there truly are people who do not see and do not hear, they are able to, but their hearts are far from him, it is not in their priority, it's as valuable to them as a pig would value a ring.
To simplify: Jesus wants us to love the truth, he is the truth, he said if you love him then obey his commands otherwise why refer to him as a king if you do not submit to his authority.
That whole "what if" scenario is, imo, for people who have not put the word of God to the test by putting the teachings into practice, if they did they'd know that Jesus is very much real and "what if" is besides the point.
It is very much possible to believe full well in God's existence and authority and still be unfaithful to him through ignorance, especially willfull ignorance. God did not design us for a shallow understanding of himself.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by borntowatch

 

As for God providing everything for Christians, where is that written in the bible.

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.)

Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst

Amen, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it shall be done for him. Therefore I tell you, all that you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it and it shall be yours.

If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you.

It was not you who chose me, but I who chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit that will remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name he may give you

On that day you will not question me about anything. Amen, amen, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in my name he will give you. Until now you have not asked anything in my name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete.

I think the greater question is "What are you Christians praying for?" If Jesus was telling the truth, war, poverty and disease should be a thing of past!

I think you missed the context, completely wrong comprehension of the Gospel.

Remember the Lords prayer, "Your will be done"
Context, typical atheist who listens to what he wants to hear, not what is written in context.

Oh and what are we praying for? Justice

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by adjensen
Why would anyone? Christ's death and resurrection is kinda the core of the whole thing.

And that is the point overall.
The whole thing...what is the thing? is the thing the message or the man.

One cannot separate the message from the man. If you separate the man from the message, there is no message.

Jesus' message was not only about how to live, but that He is the only Way to eternal life. One either believes that or one does not.

Originally posted by 1PLA1

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by adjensen
Why would anyone? Christ's death and resurrection is kinda the core of the whole thing.

And that is the point overall.
The whole thing...what is the thing? is the thing the message or the man.

One cannot separate the message from the man. If you separate the man from the message, there is no message.

Yes there is. It's called philosophia perennis and it can be discerned in all religions.

Jesus' message was not only about how to live, but that He is the only Way to eternal life. One either believes that or one does not.

Ah, black and white thinking. What could be easier?

Things aren't so simple... you aren't considering the possibility that Jesus was one of many mouth-pieces for the Christ. That Jesus was a vehicle possessed by the Child of Humanity...

99.99% of Christians are stuck at the exoteric level of body and image and form and concept and idea... but the Christ is beyond these.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
What if it was found out beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus did not resurrect, nor did he do any of the miracles that was claimed he did. Would you remain a Christian?

No. I would still try to put into practice the good things that I find in Christianity, but I would not be a 'Christian' because there would have been no 'christ'.

I wouldn't revert to another religion. My beliefs and faith change as I learn more so it's constantly fluid anyways.

I already read the Buddhist and Hindu writings and don't consider myself to be either ..

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by SaturnFX
What if it was found out beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus did not resurrect, nor did he do any of the miracles that was claimed he did. Would you remain a Christian?

No. I would still try to put into practice the good things that I find in Christianity, but I would not be a 'Christian' because there would have been no 'christ'.

Then you are an idolator who worships an idol which you have made out of your concepts and ideas and interpretations of what the Christ is.

reply to post by 1PLA1

One cannot separate the message from the man. If you separate the man from the message, there is no message.

Jesus' message was not only about how to live, but that He is the only Way to eternal life. One either believes that or one does not.

What is it with you people and selling your souls for immortality? It feels more like a black cult than anything else.

Interesting. We all have our "if I could take a trip back in time" scenarios, and mine would be this. I would be present at the moment of the resurrection.

Or maybe ascension. Hard to choose.

: )

Originally posted by BlueMule
Then you are an idolator who worships the idol you have made out of your concepts and ideas and interpretations of what the Christ is.

No .. I am somone who worships God Incarnate. Jesus. Jesus said "I AM the way, the truth and the life". So Jesus put HIMSELF at the center of Christianity. Being a Christian means putting Jesus at the center. If it turns out that Jesus isn't who scripture said He is ... then that changes everything.

reply to post by borntowatch

I think you missed the context, completely wrong comprehension of the Gospel.

Remember the Lords prayer, "Your will be done"
Context, typical atheist who listens to what he wants to hear, not what is written in context.

Considering all the scripture in the post from which I have quoted the above selection, what is your interpretation? And what makes your interpretation better? Either "God" provides or he does not.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by BlueMule
Then you are an idolator who worships the idol you have made out of your concepts and ideas and interpretations of what the Christ is.

No .. I am somone who worships God Incarnate. Jesus. Jesus said "I AM the way, the truth and the life". So Jesus put HIMSELF at the center of Christianity. Being a Christian means putting Jesus at the center. If it turns out that Jesus isn't who scripture said He is ... then that changes everything.

You think you know what Jesus is. But all you know is your concept of what Jesus is, based on your interpretations of text.

You have a concept of Christ and a concept of resurrection and a concept of truth in your head. You make an idol out of these in your head and call it Jesus. Then you think you know Jesus.

But God is in the cloud of unknowing.

Originally posted by BlueMule
You make an idol out of these in your head and call it Jesus. Then you think you know Jesus.

Dude ... I worship Jesus because of Who the scriptures say He is.
I worship Jesus because, according to scripture, He is God Incarnate.
And worship belongs to God alone ...
Therefore, I'm not an 'idol worshipper' .. I'm a GOD worshipper.
And like I said .. if it turned out that Jesus wasn't God .. then I couldn't worship Him.
Worship belongs to God alone.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
And then there's the catholics....world unto themselves.

Now now ... Just because you disagree with their interpretation doesn't make them 'a world unto themselves'. There are over a billion Catholic Christians on the planet. 1/6 of the planet is hardly 'a world unto themselves'.

Originally posted by borntowatch

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by borntowatch

 

As for God providing everything for Christians, where is that written in the bible.

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.)

Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst

Amen, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it shall be done for him. Therefore I tell you, all that you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it and it shall be yours.

If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you.

It was not you who chose me, but I who chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit that will remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name he may give you

On that day you will not question me about anything. Amen, amen, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in my name he will give you. Until now you have not asked anything in my name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete.

I think the greater question is "What are you Christians praying for?" If Jesus was telling the truth, war, poverty and disease should be a thing of past!

I think you missed the context, completely wrong comprehension of the Gospel.

Remember the Lords prayer, "Your will be done"
Context, typical atheist who listens to what he wants to hear, not what is written in context.

Context? Those are the words of Jesus, while he was a living man, promising to answer the prayers of Christians. Do you believe what he said? If so, are Christians praying for the right things?

BTW, I'm not an atheist. I just don't believe in the Biblical God, etal.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by BlueMule
You make an idol out of these in your head and call it Jesus. Then you think you know Jesus.

Dude ... I worship Jesus because of Who the scriptures say He is.

No, you worship the Jesus that your interpretations of scripture say he is. There's a difference between scripture and your interpretation of scripture. Your interpretation of scripture is not scripture. Its your interpretation.

Therefore, there is a difference between Jesus and your concept of Jesus. The question is how much.

You worship from a conceptual position, not a supra-conceptual position. You are confusing the menu for the meal... the map for the territory. You are putting your interpretations and conceptions and thoughts on a pedestal and calling them God.

Thanks for your well-considered questions in the opening post. For me to address them, I need to provide some background on my understanding of Jesus' original Christianity.

Jesus was not interested in establishing a religion based on rites, ceremonies, dogma, and all the rest of the religious trappings we can find in Christianity then and now. He taught a spiritual process that entailed both exoteric and esoteric practices.

His commandments of fully loving God with one's whole body-mind and spirit, and one's neighbor as oneself, were his moral instructions for daily living and for also preparing the body-mind through self-transcending love for his esoteric initiation given to his most devoted followers - so that they were "born to here from above".

This esoteric initiation involved Jesus' blessing of his disciples with the Spirit and drawing them up to the Divine Spirit Light Above (God the Father) thus transcending the body-mind. Such was the original ascension in Christianity. Through such ascension, the Spirit-blessed disciple would be "born from above" and that was also the Spirit-blessed disciple's salvation for he most directly saw that the mortality of the body-mind did not mean the end of one's very being.

This was Jesus' message, both exoteric (the commandments of love) and esoteric (his Spirit-Blessing). However, this message was misunderstood and revised for the sake of making Jesus' message much more acceptable to the masses. Thus the ascension was associated solely with the physical body of Jesus ascending into the heavens, and salvation (sometime in the future) was associated with simply believing or having faith in Jesus' physical resurrection and ascension.

Ascension was no longer associated with the initiate's mystical ascent to the Divine Light of God Above (God the Father) but was revised by the institutionalized version of belief-based Christianity that Paul particularly promoted.

So the physical ascension of Jesus' physical body was a man-made myth that has nothing to do with original Christianity - and therefore, if this myth were eliminated it should not cause people to give up their Christianity.

On the contrary, if one comes to understand and live the core commandments of love (the exoteric message) and even the process of ascension (the esoteric message), Christianity will be restored to its original form, and Jesus' intention will be fulfilled. Otherwise Christianity will continue in its decline.

So in my view the physical Ascension myth is of least importance to Jesus' true message because it was fabricated for the sake of spreading Christianity as a belief-based religion with the promise of salvation at a future time.

The resurrection and other reported miracles are not able to be proven and really don't matter because such powers do not necessarily prove that such a being is God - but only that such a one had extraordinary powers.

Whether the person of Jesus actually existed or not may never be completely decided via physical evidence. But I do think given Jesus' esoteric message that is to be found in the Bible, that such a message points to his actual existence because no group of writers who were not otherwise initiated by such a master would have even known about these esoteric matters (which are also found to be very consistent with esotericism in other spiritual traditions). In other words, they would not have known about ascension to the Divine Light Above, nor the rebirth that this ascent yields, without having been initiated into these processes by the person of their master, Jesus.

reply to post by SaturnFX

I'm a follower of Christ and a lover of Jesus and I think that he was simply obedient unto the point of death but by the grace of God and with the help of some friends like Joseph of Arimathea, Nicodemus and even Pontias Pilate, made it through the ordeal by a mere thread and completed the ritual, to exit the tomb (with wounds on the mend) three days later ie: that he did not come back to life having died as dead as a doornail, as evidenced by his use of disguise, hunger for food, etc. (See Road of Emmaus story for more), but instead, actually survived the ordeal but by a mere thread. ("it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.")

It's even BETTER this version of the story, with him entering into a glorified life of heaven on earth than "beamed straight up", imho.

Edit: Additional Info

On the Road to Emmaus

13 Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles[a] from Jerusalem. 14 They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. 15 As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16 but they were kept from recognizing him.

17 He asked them, “What are you discussing together as you walk along?”

They stood still, their faces downcast. 18 One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, “Are you the only one visiting Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?”

19 “What things?” he asked.

“About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. 20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. 22 In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning 23 but didn’t find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. 24 Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but they did not see Jesus.”

25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

28 As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus continued on as if he were going farther. 29 But they urged him strongly, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them.

30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32 They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”

33 They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together 34 and saying, “It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.” 35 Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread.

~ Luke 23-24

Commentary

The burial of Jesus.

Joseph of Arimathea was a disciple of Christ in secret. Disciples should openly own themselves; yet some, who in lesser trials have been fearful, in greater have been courageous. When God has work to do, he can find out such as are proper to do it. The embalming was done by Nicodemus, a secret friend to Christ, though not his constant follower. That grace which at first is like a bruised reed, may afterward resemble a strong cedar. Hereby these two rich men showed the value they had

for Christ's person and doctrine, and that it was not lessened by the reproach of the cross. We must do our duty as the present day and opportunity are, and leave it to God to fulfil his promises in his own way and his own time. The grave of Jesus was appointed with the wicked, as was the case of those who suffered as criminals; but he was with the rich in his death, as prophesied, Isa 53:9; these two circumstances it was very unlikely should ever be

united in the same person. He was buried in a new sepulchre; therefore it could not be said that it was not he, but some other that rose. We also are here taught not to be particular as to the place of our burial. He was buried in the sepulchre next at hand. Here is the Sun of Righteousness set for a while, to rise again in greater glory, and then to set no more.

www.biblegateway.com...

The Death of Jesus

28 Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” 29 A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips. 30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. 36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”[c] 37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”[d]

The Burial of Jesus

38 Later, Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. Now Joseph was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jewish leaders. With Pilate’s permission, he came and took the body away. 39 He was accompanied by Nicodemus, the man who earlier had visited Jesus at night. Nicodemus brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds.[e] 40 Taking Jesus’ body, the two of them wrapped it, with the spices, in strips of linen. This was in accordance with Jewish burial customs. 41 At the place where Jesus was crucified, there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb, in which no one had ever been laid. 42 Because it was the Jewish day of Preparation and since the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there.

For this more context and understanding see The Day of the Cross.

Philippians 2:5-11
English Standard Version (ESV)
5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant,being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
The Sacred Heart of Jesus (encircled by thorns of sorrow)


As vital as this understanding is, fortunately, it's only half of the story.

Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.
~ John 13:36, KJV

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
~ John, 14:3

So in reply to the question posed in the OP - absolutely YES, because his resurrection is OUR shared triumph, and oh what a TRIUMPH it was and IS!

Can you imagine? He put the double bind on the strong man, pilfered his "house" of everything and all power reserving it all for our mutual enjoyment, and then got to have his cake and eat it too in the liberated life, but not just for himself but for US where when the last is first and the first last, the best is always reserved for last.

Then, after a natural lifespan and dropping his body at around the age of 67 or something like that, he wasted no time confronting Saul from the abode of light on the Road to Damascus, and so the dance goes on!





YES YES YES - The resurrection of Jesus Christ is VERY important to me!

Based on my posts above and from my own deep investigation into this matter, I think it's important to consider the Great Work and life of Jesus Christ in terms of a type of fated "wedge" or sent-calling (leading to the cross) whose "framework", for the first half of his life, formed a type of "box" which was made, by design, from the very beginning ("because you loved me from before the foundation of the world") to contain him and only him and none other than him (as true son of man son of God), but one which, to be functional and formative had to also contain embedded within it, as an evolutionary resurrection principal of life meeting life - his eventual release and escape from it's "entrapment" or confine (represented by the tomb) making of his glorified life with the father in heaven a liberated life of heaven on earth. In other words that "the work" was not entirely complete until he was able to enter into that domain of absolute freedom.

If so, and it looks that way to me, the implication of this for Christianity is profound because it doesn't leave us in guilt and shame at the foot of the cross but instead invites us into a shared glorification with Jesus through the death and resurrection process, which is an evolutionary process of new life and new possibility and a new domain of unconstrained and unfettered freedom to be free to freely love as we are loved. Furthermore, it poses a supreme challenge to the Christian not only to be forgiven, but also and perhaps even more importantly, to have the audacity and the courage, to live a happy and fulfilled life on the other side of the sorrow and the suffering or the joy that can only be completed in and through us, joining his circle of joy in the resurrection life.

This is our Great Work then to complete his joy where it was always done for US, and not for him alone because after all "if I seek only my own glory then that is no glory at all".

This removes the "guilt factor" inherent in a Christianity which terminates at the cross (ie: Roman Catholicism), and invites us also into the new life and the new domain of a state of absolute liberation where it may be said that absolute forgiveness = absolute liberation, not as a permissive framework to sin which only leads to unhappiness and sorrow, but as a permissive framework to really LOVE and thus to be truly happy and fulfilled, not in the next life, but in this one.

"All with the ears to hear let them hear!"

Edit: For this more context and understanding see The Day of the Cross.

That blood red moon on Preparation Day of the Passover Festival was also a FULL moon (signifying a life FULLY lived, not a half life).

Whoever understands this information that I've presented, it will either leave you confused and none the better, or, it will fill you with great joy to discover, and if anyone is tempted here to suggest that Jesus hoaxed his death because he knew in advance that he'd pull through somehow, don't you dare go there, because obedient unto the point of death is as obedient as anyone can be, and knowing Jesus, he almost certainly set it up so that going into it he was "double blind" to use a scientific term, meaning that he could not be absolutely assured of the outcome, but simply "seeded" it in the minds of others while leaving it all in the hands of God as a first/last cause because that's just the way he rolled.

I find it interesting however the use of Aloe by Nicodemus in the preparation of the body.. that's not just standard burial practice, but a healing substance well known to bring about healing of the skin and tissue.

Best Regards,

NAM
Your Brother in Jesus Christ our common Lord and Savior and true friend.