First Defense for Paul: Spoken by Jesus

The answer was there for us all along, but we did not understand it.

It is so simple.

Jesus told his disciples: “There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions. So he called him in and asked him, ‘What is this I hear about you? Give an account of your management, because you cannot be manager any longer.’

“The manager said to himself, ‘What shall I do now? My master is taking away my job. I’m not strong enough to dig, and I’m ashamed to beg— I know what I’ll do so that, when I lose my job here, people will welcome me into their houses.’

“So he called in each one of his master’s debtors. He asked the first, ‘How much do you owe my master?’

“‘Nine hundred gallons of olive oil,’ he replied.

“The manager told him, ‘Take your bill, sit down quickly, and make it four hundred and fifty.’

“Then he asked the second, ‘And how much do you owe?’

“‘A thousand bushels of wheat,’ he replied.

“He told him, ‘Take your bill and make it eight hundred.’

“The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light. I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.

“Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else’s property, who will give you property of your own?

“No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.”

The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. 15 He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of others, but God knows your hearts. What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight."


I do not know about anyone else, but that settles the case in my opinion.

Peace to all of you.

Shouldn't this be placed in the fiction section of ATS?

IRM

reply to post by InfaRedMan


some would say this is that forum.

Originally posted by backcase
The answer was there for us all along, but we did not understand it.

I guess you'd have to add me to the list of those who do not understand it -- I don't see how that passage has anything to do with Paul.

reply to post by adjensen


Paul had been a servant of God the whole time, whether he was good or bad.

This parable is about his transition in God from being mean to being compassionate.

It can be applied to many, but I think Jesus had Paul in His mind when He spoke it. Paul saw the light of his evil ways as a pharisee and mended them becoming Christ's witness.

reply to post by backcase


I don't think that's the point of the parable -- Christ is teaching that it is a good idea to use the resources of the world to make a place for themselves in heaven, trading the material and temporary for the spiritual and eternal. The Pharisees just didn't see that, they were all about rewards in this life, not the next.

reply to post by adjensen


Yes, but in the story the man is unjust at first and then becomes just, it actually has a lot to do with Paul situation.

Parable can have many meanings, there is no one, set, meaning.

Originally posted by InfaRedMan
Shouldn't this be placed in the fiction section of ATS?

IRM

Oh, I get it! You think this should be in the "fiction" section because you think it's silly! Haaaahaahahahah! Clever guy, you. I bet you're a real hoot with your discounting and dismissals of other peoples' beliefs at parties and the work place. Seriously, we should get a fiction section and put all the subjects that you don't like in it. We will find out which ones are fiction because we will follow you around and look for posts from you belittling threads with subject matter that you do not believe in. Brilliant!

I mean, why put a religious thread in the religious section? What nerve!

reply to post by Cuervo


LOL, do not worry. There will always be those who know nothing else besides what they judge with their physical sense. At least for now.

Originally posted by backcase
reply to post by adjensen

 

Yes, but in the story the man is unjust at first and then becomes just, it actually has a lot to do with Paul situation.

Well, perhaps, though the Bible is stuffed with examples of people who were flawed but were put to good use for the furtherance of God's Kingdom, so I'm not sure that Jesus would have spun that tale for the benefit of justifying Paul. I agree with you that parables can work on many levels, but it's a good story in itself and kind of a reach to say that it's about Paul and we should have figured that out a long time ago.

Unlike most people (at least most people on ATS,) I don't think that Paul needs any justification or vindication -- he plays the role that he was meant to, as a teacher of the Law who is redeemed by Christ, and makes it his life's work to extend that to others, both in word and in understanding.

reply to post by adjensen


Yeah, I do not think it is a far reach at all though.

You are right, Paul does not need to be justified. But sometimes I receive, in a moment of extreme clarity, the answer to a thought which bothers me. Much like my thread The Value of Blood

If a Christian believes the bible to be the inspired word of god, then Pauls conversion in Acts, and Peter's own testimony to Paul's credibility should hold more than enough weight and witness to Paul being one of those Jesus spoke of in Matthew 23:34

34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city

2Peter 3:14-16

14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

No other defense is needed for the bible believing Christian.

reply to post by Klassified


read my last post to adjenson, this will explain why I wrote the thread.

reply to post by backcase


This has nothing to do with Paul,

except that Paul did something similar to the manager in the parable.

He stopped killing christians and infiltrated them for his own benefit,
sneaking around, lying and cheating as he went about the buisiness of his own self-glorification.

Jesus never met Paul.

And probably would not have liked him if he had.

What Paul wrote in the NT is the reason for all the messed-up beliefs of Christians.

All the anti-homosexual and anti-women nonsense comes from Paul.

If Paul had stayed out of things, the New Testament and the world would be a better place.

reply to post by Theflyingweldsman


Jesus knows Paul, and He knows you, I and everyone else.

The world would also be full of falsehood.

and read Leviticus 18:22 if you think it is paul's fault for anti homosexuality.

Originally posted by backcase
reply to post by Theflyingweldsman

 

Jesus knows Paul, and He knows you, I and everyone else.

The world would also be full of falsehood.

and read Leviticus 18:22 if you think it is paul's fault for anti homosexuality.

edit on 113030p://111 by backcase because: (no reason given)

Nope. Can't refer to the OT for anything unless you want to open up that whole can of worms. If you use the OT for rules, then you need to abide by all of them. You do that and you'll end up in prison within a day.

I don't see Christians stoning their children or executing pharmacists or acting on the hundreds of other rules in the bible so don't even start defending ignorance with the OT. Your Jesus said "pffft, screw those books, I'm the real deal". Cherry picking is not a Jesus-like quality.

reply to post by backcase


Ok, you have already gone OT with the OT.

It is wrong to base all of your moral and societal beliefs on the laws of a nomadic desert culture.

It is always easier to justify your hatred or fear of someone elses lifestyle or sexuality based on a hand-picked selection of "ancient" texts, than it is to justify your own.

Very few follow this one, funnily....

20 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor’s wife and defile yourself with her.

People pick and choose what they want to "believe" or "ignore"

Paul was an intellectual opportunist who wrote so ambiguolsly that he split the Church and made the whole "christian thing" acceptable to powerful, bigoted leaders of societies and eventually Nations and Empires.

I used to read in church and always wondered why Paul was quoted more than Jesus, even though they never met. Paul is the justification for many mental illnesses. I think that is why. Because of Paul's insistence that the written word be taken as law, everyone can point to the Bible and say Look! It says it here, so it must be true....

No Offense.

reply to post by Cuervo

so don't even start defending ignorance with the OT.

Unfortunately, the OT often what people use to defend ignorance.

reply to post by Cuervo


I used the OT because it had to do with the subject.

This is not a thread about whether or not the OT is right or wrong, so let's remain on topic.

EDIT:

I adhere to the spirit of the law, not to the letter. I am no scribe.

reply to post by Theflyingweldsman


I think it has nothing to do with justified hate or fear. I would like to remain on topic. If you do not believe the bible then why bother arguing with me about it?

I refuse to argue, believe what you want to believe.