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So you don't believe that the Cardinals are influenced by the Holy Spirit to choose the right person to lead the church in a given time? That seems like a rather anti-traditionalist and anti-Catholic opinion to hold.
Where did he glorify man?
Where exactly did he change the liturgy so that it's centered on man?
There is nothing wrong with the Catholics 'washing of the feet'. This has been going on for a very long time. It's been shown in the press for a very long time. There is nothing wrong with it being there and people seeing it done. It's not glorifying man ... it's just part of the tradition of the church for the priest to do the washing of the feet. I personally think it should be 12 men as the rules call for (to represent the 12 apostles and Jesus washing the feet). But I don't see how he 'glorified man' by his washing of the feet ... I'm just not seeing that at all.
I can't put Pope Francis in the same boat as Pope Paul VI. Two totally different people.
But if you are looking for a Pope Pius X type pope to bring back the Latin mass .. it's not going to happen. The Novus Ordo is here. There is no going back.
Originally posted by CookieMonster09
So you don't believe that the Cardinals are influenced by the Holy Spirit to choose the right person to lead the church in a given time? That seems like a rather anti-traditionalist and anti-Catholic opinion to hold.
The late Fr. Malachi Martin made it abundantly clear that Satanic forces have entered the highest echelons of the Vatican. The Novus Ordo Church since Vatican II is not the same as the traditional, pre-Vatican II Church.
As a result of Vatican II, we no longer have the traditional Latin Rite Church. The Church is now the New Age, Novus Ordo Church, and has all of the trappings of modernism, man-centered theology and liturgy, ad nauseum. This is why Catholicism is half dead in Europe and the U.S. Convents and seminaries are vacant. Catholic schools are being shut down in alarming numbers. Mass attendance is down. All of this started with the onset of the horrific Vatican II.
And does this all explain the precipitous simultaneous decline in mainline Protestant churches, as well? The last time I checked, none of those churches has anything to do with the Vatican or are affected by the changes introduced by the Vatican II Council.
Originally posted by CookieMonster09
And does this all explain the precipitous simultaneous decline in mainline Protestant churches, as well? The last time I checked, none of those churches has anything to do with the Vatican or are affected by the changes introduced by the Vatican II Council.
Most of the Protestant churches have gone evangelical, and the evangelical and non-denominational churches are very popular right now.
In the West, for Catholicism, the most vibrant and growing part of the Church is the traditionalist movement that celebrates the pre-Vatican II Tridentine Latin Mass. If the papacy had half a wit, he would realize the trends in this direction. Even the traditionalist seminaries are growing by leaps and bounds.
No, they are not. Protestantism, of all stripes, is on the decline in the United States. See Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life -- the largest growing group in the US is "Nones", people who have lost interest in organized religion at all.
I suspect that this is wishful thinking on your part. I've looked for statistics, but the best that I can find is that perhaps 1% of Catholics describe themselves as "Traditionalist", and that growth in those parishes is almost certainly due to consolidation, as those who wish to roll back to pre-Vatican II find like minded people and priests.
I find zero evidence that there are any non-Catholic parties -- Protestants or non-churched -- who are calmouring for the revival of the Catholic church as it was before Vatican II
Originally posted by CookieMonster09
Unaffiliated = Non-Denominational. Many Protestants have gone to non-denominational churches, which are swelling at the seams.
The FSSP - Fraternal Society of St. Peter and Paul - has a seminary in Nebraska. It has a long waiting list, because there are more applicants than slots available. This is one of the few traditionalist seminaries left in the country.
I find zero evidence that there are any non-Catholic parties -- Protestants or non-churched -- who are calmouring for the revival of the Catholic church as it was before Vatican II
Now you are making up your own opinions. I stated that within the Catholic Church in the West - I am not referring to Protestants or non-Catholics - the growing segment is the pre-Vatican II Latin Rite traditionalists. This is fact, not opinion, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with non-Catholics or Protestants.
I am afraid you are sadly mistaken. The Latin Mass is one of the most popular Masses among young families in the West, and growing exponentially.
As I said, I can find absolutely no statistical basis for that. The "young families" bit is particularly suspect, absolutely illogical, and since Latin Masses are few and far between, your sample size is far too small to be considered accurate.
According to their website, they are only one of two for that society, and they only have 60 seminarians, so it's not like there is a lot of space in the first place. I'm not surprised that they have a waiting list if there are so few slots.
the Vatican would be committing religious suicide by catering to that minuscule number of adherents.
According to their website, they are only one of two for that society, and they only have 60 seminarians, so it's not like there is a lot of space in the first place. I'm not surprised that they have a waiting list if there are so few slots.
Originally posted by CookieMonster09
That's a huge jump.
Who attends these Latin Masses? Well, go to one yourself and find out.
the Vatican would be committing religious suicide by catering to that minuscule number of adherents.
Uh, again, no. Pope Benedict actively courted the traditionalists very successfully. He opened up dialogue with the SSPX, and liberalized the Traditional Latin Rite Mass through his Moto Proprio in July 2007. Since 2007, the Latin Mass has taken hold in many Archdioceses around the world, including the U.S.
The current Pope is the anti-Benedict. I doubt he will court the traditionalists. He's a lib, modernist, globalist.
If there are a billion Roman Catholics, you'd have to approach 100-200 million "traditionalists" to merit interest, 500 million to merit a reaction. You're nowhere even remotely close to that.
As I said, my only example is a local priest, who is not popular in his parish. The families who attend his church do so because it is their parish, not because they want the traditional experience, and attendance is dwindling. The last couple of Saturday evening Masses I went to there didn't even have a choir, cantor or organist, for pete's sakes.
There is absolutely no upside to your perspective, because you would drive away members by rolling back Vatican II
I don't know that I would agree with the last, simply because we have given him, what, three weeks to establish his papacy? He definitely didn't seem to side with Liberation Theology, so time will tell how liberal (in the real sense, not in the "holy carp, he washed the foot of a woman!" sense) he turns out to be.
Originally posted by windword
Pope Francis is not just another human being. He is a public figure that makes a claim to be the highest and holiest person on the planet and the keeper of the souls of this earth. He sets himself above kings, scholars, politicians, CEO's, and any other ordinary person.
His stunt of washing a few feet for a well strategized photo-op is just a public relations ploy of distraction and desperation to keep his "flock of sheep" from straying.
Originally posted by CookieMonster09
His actions are symbolically telling the priesthood that his papacy will be centered around the Pope's personality, and not around the service of G-d. It's highly irregular and will have disastrous consequences if Pope Francis stays in power for an extended period of time.edit on 30-3-2013 by CookieMonster09 because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by CookieMonster09
I am liking this new Pope. He seems pretty nice.
Pay close attention. The Pope's actions were highly symbolic and purposely designed to draw attention to his papacy - a man - and away from the worship of G-d, the Divine. The entire purpose of the liturgy is supposed to be about the worship of G-d, not the glorification of one man - in this case, Pope Francis.
Originally posted by CookieMonster09
Where did he glorify man?
By changing the liturgy of the Mass from being focused on worshiping G-d to being man-centered - I.e., centered on the actions of the priest who was, in this case, Pope Francis.
If you ever have the privilege to attend the Latin Rite Tridentine Mass ...
Within a few more decades, the Novus Ordo will be dead, and the Latin Rite Church will be all that's left -- by birth rate alone, as the traditional Latin Rite Catholics have many more children than the Novus Ordo. The Latin Mass is anything but dead - Its adherents are very devoted.
Originally posted by CookieMonster09
The Church is dead in the West. All that will be left soon is the traditionalist Catholics.
I've seen and heard enough of Pope Francis to make me want to vomit.
The doctrine of papal primacy upholds the divine authority of the Successor of St. Peter to rule over the entire Church with ordinary and immediate jurisdiction. Two Magisterial texts are key to understanding its supreme nature and the obligation of all who are not invincibly ignorant of this truth to submit to Papal authority for the sake of their salvation.
... the faithful of whatever rite and dignity, both as separate individuals and all together, are bound by a duty of hierarchical submission and true obedience, not only in things pertaining to faith and morals, but also in those which pertain to the discipline and government of the Church spread over the whole world, so that the Church of Christ, protected not only by the Roman Pontiff, but by the unity of communion as well as of the profession of the same faith is one flock under the one highest shepherd. This is the doctrine of Catholic truth from which no one can deviate and keep his faith and salvation... [Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Vatican Council I, 1870]
Matthew 23:8
But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren.
9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
10 Neither be called masters, for you have one master, the Christ.
Or, you know, maybe he's leading his fellow clergy towards a more humble following of the path of Jesus and a furthering of their attempt to emulate their Savior.
Again ... where did he do this?? Point to exactly where he changed the liturgy please ... I'm not seeing how he changed any liturgy. It's still the same Novus Ordo mass ....
#1. "The Pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God."
#13. "Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions."
#30. "The Pope is of so great authority and power, that he is able to modify, declare, or interpret even divine laws."
The Roman Pontiff, successor of the blessed Peter, and the vicar of Jesus Christ, keeper of the keys of the heavenly Kingdom, of all regions of the world, and of all of the nations and those who dwell in them, ... (4 April 1417).
Stationed on the lofty watchtower of the church militant, the Roman Pontiff, Blessed Peter's successor, keeper of the keys of the heavenly kingdom, and the Vicar of Jesus Christ, having fullness of power and privileges over all the churches and monasteries and other religious places of the world in the manner of the Shepherd, the eyes of His providence over the whole world, the nations and all of those who dwell in them, ... (10 June 1420).
"Take care, so that the sheepfold may be one, it now is divided into parts. Take care at last, that we lose not that salvation, that life and breath which thou hast given us. For thou art our shepherd, thou art our physician, thou art our governor, thou art our husbandman, thou art finally another God on earth."
Source: Sacrorum Conciliorum: Nova et Amplissima Collectio, J. D. Mansi (ed.), Paris, 1902, Huberti Welter, Vol. 32, col. 761, Latin:
10. ... God Himself has set up a living authority to establish and teach the true and legitimate meaning of His heavenly revelation. This authority judges infallibly all disputes which concern matters of faith and morals, lest the faithful be swirled around by every wind of doctrine which springs from the evilness of men in encompassing error. And this living infallible authority is active only in that Church which was built by Christ the Lord upon Peter, the head of the entire Church, leader and shepherd, whose faith He promised would never fail.
8. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom "the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior."
Furthermore We teach and declare that the Roman Church, by the disposition of the Lord, holds the sovereignty of ordinary power over all others, and that this power of jurisdiction on the part of the Roman Pontiff, which is truly episcopal, is immediate; and with respect to this the pastors and the faithful of whatever right and dignity, both as separate individuals and all together, are bound by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, not only in things which pertain to faith and morals, but also in those which pertain to the discipline and government of the Church [which is] spread over the whole world, so that the Church of Christ, protected not only by the Roman Pontiff, but by the unity of communion as well as of the profession of the same faith is one flock under one highest shepherd.
This is the doctrine of Catholic truth from which no one can deviate and keep his faith and salvation.
Source: Dogmatic Constitution I on the Church of Christ [Vatican I - Pius IX], Session IV, July 18th 1870, Chapter 3., The Power and Manner of the Primacy of the Roman Pontiff, Denzinger, The Sources of Catholic Dogma, Translated by Roy J. Deferrari, from the Thirtieth Edition of Henry Denzinger's Enchiridion Symbolorum, published by B. Herder Book Co., Copyright 1957, pages 453-454.
According to Papal doctrine, no one can enter Heaven unless they have submitted themselves to "The Roman Pontiff", the Pope. Thus the Pope has been made a "soul keeper", because no one can enter the Kingdom of God except through submission to him.