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Stunning. Simply stunning USA

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posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 11:51 PM
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I am amazed.

Months of campaigning, tens of thousands of posts regarding the coming election. Countless hours of thought, research and posting by members on all sides of politics.

And what do we have?

A pathetic childish slanging match.

I mean, its not like theres nothing important going on. Its not like there are no major issues confronting the US and the world. I'm not even going to bother listing them, we all know what they are.

But, all the issues have been almost entirely ignored. You aren't interested. You are all much more interested in trying to tell everyone President Bush dodged Vietnam, or trying to prove that Kerry's Medals were not justified. Things that happened 30 years ago.

What the Hell is wrong with you people?

Every day I see a swag of new threads attacking each candidate, and I now believe that most of you couldn't give a rats arse about the future of your country. You all seem far more interested in not letting the other guy win. A special forum for Campaign issues was even created, trying to get people to focus on issues rather than petty insults. This forum has been largely ignored in the last few weeks of the campaign. Surely the time when that forum should be busiest, right?

The election is hours away. How many threads on each candidates security plans? How many threads on each candidates plans for the Economy? How many threads about how each candidate intends to deal with Iraq?

Maybe one, if you turn your head and squint a little.

But how many threads that attack the other side?

You see my point.

Every day I browse these threads (which of late have been coming much more from Kerry-bashers than Bush-bashers, even though according to the ATS poll Kerry-bashers are in the minority) and all I can hope is that this is not a true representation of wider US society.

This election is not a vote on who you like better, or who you think was better behaved 3 decades ago. It is about who you think can lead your country through the next 4 years. At a time where the US' standing in the world is probably at its lowest ebb since WWI.

This is an important bloody decision, yet you sit here and bitch like schoolgirls.


Now, I understand that there are a lot of people who are not just here for petty bickering, and those for whom that is the case should not be offended by this. Those to who I am referring will know who they are.


USA, this is the worlds shining example of Democracy?




posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 11:57 PM
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World,

If you thought 2000 was bad, just wait until you see this election! Victory will most likely go not to the actual victor, but to the most successful litigator.

Stay tuned..........5 hours to go until we start on the east coast and counting.........



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 12:03 AM
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Well said!


You make many of the same points I made elsewhere: Dirty Politics.

I have to admit that I am one of those who abandoned my commitment to the Campaign 2004 Issues forum. It became evident early that partisan lines where going to be defended at all costs. Then things degenerated in the regular forums (especially in the last few weeks) and nerves got fried.



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 12:07 AM
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No Kano, its not an example of the United States as a whole. Yes this has been a close and yes a nasty political season for us here in the States, but is it an indictment of Democracy here as a whole? No not in the least. The election process is what it is. To be honest the best debating here on ATS occured in the Campaign 2004 forum and is much more representative of the thoughts and process going on here. While the flashy campaign rhetoric has made the press both here, on ATS and overseas Americans buy and large do care about the issues you put forth. Why you did not see them or hear about them? That would be a question for your media. Why all the political sniping in the threads? Most people here on ATS made up thier minds long ago. And formal debates at this point will do nothing IMHO to change anybodies mind one iota. Im not endorsing the threads mind you, simply giving my opinion.

I for one will be voting in about 11 hours. I have considered all aspects of my choice and I will make the one that I feel is best for me, my family, and my country. I will vote ballot measures in California that may set our state into new areas like stem cell research, I will even cross party lines and vote for the incumbent Democratic Senator who is up for reelection.

I am amused and saddend by the image that the voting is in shambles and Americans are "out of touch" with world events. Like people in Australia, Canada, even France, I will go to the polls and vote for whoever I feel will serve our countries best interests over the next 4 years. And much like I lived through 8 years of the Clinton Administration, I will live though whoever is chosen tommorow. The United States as it stands has the current, longest standing, form of government on the planet today and its not going anywhere.



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 12:09 AM
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And another thing that's been bugging me is...

Admit it. It was you all along!


Just kidding Kano.



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 12:10 AM
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I agree.....98%

People are #ing around with what happened 40 friggin years ago, while ignoring whats going on in the present and future. Anybody know what Kerrys current position on the war is? or how much more money Bush wants to funnel into it?

Of late, iv been staying out of most political threads since they all turn into a pissing match on how much the other candidate sucks.

As for all the Kerry Bashers, people are afraid of change.

Frankly, I wouldnt give too much of a rats ass if Bush won, but Id feel safer with Kerry in office, it most likely wouldnt affect me NOW.

Edit...i know what I wanted to end this with...I hope all this # is over tomorrow!! so we can get back to talking about aleins abducting our grandmas and anally probing them and blaming it on those cows in the middle of the field.

Thanks Otts for reminding me.


[Edited on 2-11-2004 by dreamlandmafia]



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 12:23 AM
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I think the way people support politicians should change.

Usually I stay as far away from political discussions as I can, and I usually turn OFF the TV whenever the ads come on. I find it positively nauseating when I see how much back-biting, mud-slinging, and disparaging negative BS is used.

If they want to truly ATTRACT voters, it seems to me like their time would be better spent letting the people know WHY they believe they would be the best candidate for the Presidency. Or, here's a novel idea, how about letting the people know about the GOOD things they have accomplished.

But who am I? I am simply an American that plans to go out and vote - IN SPITE OF their "best efforts" to smear each other. My mind was made up LONG before all the petty name-calling and finger-pointing...



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 12:26 AM
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FredT - I agree with you that some interesting issues were debated in the Campaign 2004 forum. However, I do agree with Kano that at some point, I lost interest in any thread about Bush or Kerry in the Politics and Scandals forum, because it inevitably split in two halves, with both sides busy digging their heels in. I understand our American friends being passionate, I commend it - your country's future deserves no less. But I also sense a good amount of anger and lack of openness to posters from the other camp. It's all about "retaking America from the Bible-thumpers" or "keeping those damned liberals from corrupting our country".

I probably won't post on November 3, guys. I love ATS, but I feel that instead of a "Alright, this is done, it was hard and hurtful, let's try to pull together best we can" attitude, I think we'll get some shameless gloating on the winning side, which will probably involve making fun and/or showing scorn for the losing side. And I don't think I really care to see that.



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 01:30 AM
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People get the leader they deserve.
But the problem with the US is that the world has to suffer under the choice made as well.

It wouldn't matter if it was a nice little 2nd world country like Australia, then we could just all joke about the screwed up politics.

I too am not looking forward to ATS, or the media in general after this election. However as this farce may carry on till Christmas, this could be a long and painful time.

Maybe we could have a rule against "non gloating" or "non baiting" political posts.

Failing that push them all into the mud pit and let them fight it out in peace.

The rest of us will try and cope with reality as best we can.



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 05:33 AM
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Originally posted by Netchicken

Maybe we could have a rule against "non gloating" or "non baiting" political posts.

Failing that push them all into the mud pit and let them fight it out in peace.

The rest of us will try and cope with reality as best we can.


AMEN! I understand that ATS was a place to come together and discuss prior to the election, and as Kano stated, I didn't see too much intelligent discussion. That's a shame. But I, as a single member, am sick and tired of all of it. Today my country's democratic process kicks into gear. And though I realize that there are many members on this board that refuse to believe it still works, I for one, am not one of them.

This is the sixth U.S. election I have had the honor to cast a vote in. Of the previous five times I've voted, 2 times has the person I voted for been elected. At no time have I ever considered I was disenfranchised because "I lost". In fact, I never considered "I lost". Because for some reason I get that the process is the winner....every time. I will remain patriotic to my country no matter who is elected. I will honor the office of President no matter who fills it. And I will vote again in 4 years, irrespective of what classless, tasteless, litigious and obnoxious machinations may occur following this election.

No matter what your political convictions, issue convictions, or societal or religious beliefs are, the most important thing to remember when you cast that vote is this...

YOU DON'T GET YOUR WAY EVERY TIME. Because you're not the only one casting a vote. A great big phat dose of GROW THE F*** UP is needed around here....and "around here" means the entire U.S. AND ATS.



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 06:48 AM
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Greate post Kano!


This is problem where I come from as well...the debate usally tends to focus on silly things and dodging the key-issues...but...it's not even close to this superficial and idiotic Mr America contest...If US was not the most leathal and dangerous country in the world I would be laughing, but this makes me and a lot of my fellow global citizens nervous and angry.



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 07:12 AM
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I agree with you Val, NC & Kano.

I have imposed a baiting and gloating ban on myself and will discourage others from doing. There's been too much fighting and mud throwing purely because people do not want to sit down and discuss the issues like adults, maybe its because they're lazy or maybe it's because someone will make them feel stupid.

No last minute "Vote Kerrys" or "Vote Bushes", You get the leader you deserve. If you choose Bush then thats your doing and you have to live with it and if you dont choose him then hey, you lost.

I'm really concerned about the gloating tonight. I know theres going to be alot of happy people out there who wish to celebrate and they should rightly be allowed to do so but alot of people are going to be very angry and depressed that they didnt "win".

But make no mistake, the world is watching you today.



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 08:34 AM
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Thank god, I thought I was going to go blue in the face before people noticed.

I say just hang on a bit, assess the aftermath of the election, and go from there.

For all we know, it could just subside, and we could go back to being a small town again, instead of a small town on game day.

Tailgaters climbing up fences, getting in fights, drinking, cursing, etc.

Let's let em go to sleep it off til 2008.



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 08:50 AM
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I find it hilerious, any thing remotly conspiricy related everyone piles on and scrutinises the facts and has a proper debate and adds ideas, But as soon as we start talking canadates, everyone is a monkey with a hand full of poo trying to see how far they can throw there # and if it will stick.
Im still trying to come to terms with how much dried crap i have to scrap of my monitor.



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 08:59 AM
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Its an interesting observation, Kano. However the part that is missing from your posting was the inordinately high number of non-americans mudslinging at both candidates (mostly Bush). All their experience has been based on what the popular press said on any given day.



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 11:59 AM
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Originally posted by Kano

USA, this is the worlds shining example of Democracy?


World, we asked for help in 2000; where were you? We sustained a Coup d'Etat, yet our Aussie, French, British, Japenese, German allies, acted as if the new regime was legitimate. There were millions of voices screaming out, and our international friends did not have the blackout in the media that we had here in the US; so your peoples knew what happened, that many of us were not happy and still, no sanctions, no rule of proof asked for.
Granted, Al Gore doing the noble thing closed it off for the rest of the world as an issue, but it wasn't the right thing to do.
That brings us to today: America was divided by choice. A united America would have reviewed the 2000 voter irregularities. A united America would have not buried evidence that there was a coup. A divided America would enable a blurring of the issues & focus on the ineptitude of team Bush; so much so, with ATS as a stellar example, that real topics like the 'Failure of Trickle Down Economics' were 1/10th the pages of clap trap like 'The Homosexual manifesto'. As was on ATS, so was the discourse in the American streets.

So I ask our International Members to look at anything less than a landslide for Kerry with a highly suspect eye, and a highly improbable win for Bush as being a call to arms - the US would be under another coup.



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 12:03 PM
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Bout Time - Unfortunately, the world can't do much. Not recognizing the actual government of the United States can be seen as meddling in American affairs, and under the current administration, meddling in American affairs can be seen as a demonstration of hostility.

My Prime Minister has said he will work with any administration elected today. I understand his position. Nobody wants to be the next France.



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 12:08 PM
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Originally posted by Valhall
No matter what your political convictions, issue convictions, or societal or religious beliefs are, the most important thing to remember when you cast that vote is this...

YOU DON'T GET YOUR WAY EVERY TIME. Because you're not the only one casting a vote. A great big phat dose of GROW THE F*** UP is needed around here....and "around here" means the entire U.S. AND ATS.

Amen, Val.
This is my 8th presidential election. My guy has not always won.

Emotion are running high. The issues debate was a great idea, but common sense gave way to these emotions. Including mine


People feel very stronglyabout who they don't want in office, or even sometimes who they do want in office.
But, the name calling and disrespect is waaaay out of hand. Even members who are normally pretty level handed are in on it.

Thankfully, it will be over today. My phone can be turned back on, my mail will have only bills and Christmas catalogs and ATS will be back to "normal"



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 12:25 PM
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Originally posted by Valhall
AMEN! I understand that ATS was a place to come together and discuss prior to the election, and as Kano stated, I didn't see too much intelligent discussion. That's a shame. But I, as a single member, am sick and tired of all of it. Today my country's democratic process kicks into gear. And though I realize that there are many members on this board that refuse to believe it still works, I for one, am not one of them.

This is the sixth U.S. election I have had the honor to cast a vote in. Of the previous five times I've voted, 2 times has the person I voted for been elected. At no time have I ever considered I was disenfranchised because "I lost". In fact, I never considered "I lost". Because for some reason I get that the process is the winner....every time. I will remain patriotic to my country no matter who is elected. I will honor the office of President no matter who fills it. And I will vote again in 4 years, irrespective of what classless, tasteless, litigious and obnoxious machinations may occur following this election.

No matter what your political convictions, issue convictions, or societal or religious beliefs are, the most important thing to remember when you cast that vote is this...

YOU DON'T GET YOUR WAY EVERY TIME. Because you're not the only one casting a vote. A great big phat dose of GROW THE F*** UP is needed around here....and "around here" means the entire U.S. AND ATS.


Quoted in its entirety because I think this is just an excellent post Valhall, and fitting for consumption on election day.



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 01:02 PM
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Originally posted by Mynaeris
Its an interesting observation, Kano. However the part that is missing from your posting was the inordinately high number of non-americans mudslinging at both candidates (mostly Bush). All their experience has been based on what the popular press said on any given day.


So, do you meet the guys personally or how do you get your information?

[edit on 2-11-2004 by Kollapse]




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